What is Death?

[Scott Shahan]

I have questions about the resurection of the dead. I went to a funeral on Saturday. So when we die do we automatically get a glorified body? Do we go straight to heaven? And if so do we recognize people when we get there??? Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today you shall be with me in Paridise". Luke 23:43.... I am not clear in my head on what the Scripture teaches. I kept hear this weekend that baby Cornelius is running and playing in heaven right now. He is sitting on the lap of Jesus. I would like to believe that is true.. I keep thinking of more questions about death but I will let it go with that........

 

[Zeno333]

I think Jesus meant what he said to the thief...and one of the words that Jesus said was "today", so whenever according to the rest or the world is not really an issue, since the time frame would have been to the mind of the thief right after death his death as promised by Jesus Himself.

 

[Pergamum]

Larger Catechism:


Question 84: Shall all men die?

Answer: Death being threatened as the wages of sin, it is appointed unto all men once to die; for that all have sinned.


Question 85: Death, being the wages of sin, why are not the righteous delivered from death, seeing all their sins are forgiven in Christ?

Answer: The righteous shall be delivered from death itself at the last day, and even in death are delivered from the sting and curse of it; so that, although they die, yet it is out of God's love, to free them perfectly from sin and misery, and to make them capable of further communion with Christ in glory, which they then enter upon.


Question 86: What is the communion in glory with Christ, which the members of the invisible church enjoy immediately after death ?

Answer: The communion in glory with Christ, which the members of the invisible church enjoy immediately after death, is, in that their souls are then made perfect in holiness, and received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies, which even in death continue united to Christ, and rest in their graves as in their beds, till at the last day they be again united to their souls. Whereas the souls of the wicked are at their death cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, and their bodies kept in their graves, as in their prisons, till the resurrection and judgment of the great day.



Question 87: What are we to believe concerning the resurrection?

Answer: We are to believe, that at the last day there shall be a general resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust: when they that are then found alive shall in a moment be changed; and the selfsame bodies of the dead which were laid in the grave, being then again united to their souls forever, shall be raised up by the power of Christ. The bodies of the just, by the Spirit of Christ, and by virtue of his resurrection as their head, shall be raised in power, spiritual, incorruptible, and made like to his glorious body; and the bodies of the wicked shall be raised up in dishonor by him, as an offended judge.



Question 88: What shall immediately follow after the resurrection?

Answer: Immediately after the resurrection shall follow the general and final judgment of angels and men; the day and hour whereof no man knows, that all may watch and pray, and be ever ready for the coming of the Lord.



Question 89: What shall be done to the wicked at the day of judgment?

Answer: At the day of judgment, the wicked shall be set on Christ's left hand, and, upon clear evidence, and full conviction of their own consciences, shall have the fearful but just sentence of condemnation pronounced against them; and thereupon shall be cast out from the favorable presence of God, and the glorious fellowship with Christ, his saints, and all his holy angels, into hell, to be punished with unspeakable torments, both of body and soul, with the devil and his angels forever.



Question 90: What shall be done to the righteous at the day of judgment?

Answer: At the day of judgment, the righteous, being caught up to Christ in the clouds, shall be set on his right hand, and there openly acknowledged and acquitted, shall join with him in the judging of reprobate angels and men, and shall be received into heaven, where they shall be fully and forever freed from all sin and misery; filled with inconceivable joys, made perfectly holy and happy both in body and soul, in the company of innumerable saints and holy angels, but especially in the immediate vision and fruition of God the Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, to all eternity. And this is the perfect and full communion, which the members of the invisible church shall enjoy with Christ in glory, at the resurrection and day of judgment.

-----Added 1/12/2009 at 10:36:56 EST-----

Shoter Catechism:

Q. 37. What benefits do believers receive from Christ at death?

A. The souls of believers are at their death made perfect in holiness, and do immediately pass into glory; and their bodies, being still united in Christ, do rest in their graves, till the resurrection.

Q. 38. What benefits do believers receive from Christ at the resurrection?

A. At the resurrection, believers, being raised up in glory, shall be openly acknowledged and acquitted in the day of judgment, and made perfectly blessed in the full enjoying of God to all eternity.

 

[Zenas]

1. I don't think we can be positive that all children who die are elect. Now, I wouldn't say that to grieving parents, thought it be true. It's possible that they are, but it's possible that they aren't. If God left all children to their fate He would be just as Just and glorified.

2. I'm not quite sure that time operates in the same manner, or even at all, outside of the physical realm. We are contained in time, but it seems as if God exists outside of it, intervening as He pleases. He was before time and will be after time, existing wholly apart from it, time itself being a creation of His invention. That being said, I think there is some measure of "talking down to" in what Jesus said to the thief. One of my favorite movie lines is "Have you ever tried explaining yourself to a cockroach?" I think we have to understand a lot in that context: that God is telling us things in a manner we can understand. I think saying "Today" in reference to a realm where I think we're lead to believe exists outside of time was, in essence, explaining Himself to a cockroach.

3. I think it's fair to deduce that the next chronological event the thief experienced was glory; that by the end of that day on Earth the thief was in glory. How that interacts with glorified bodies, etc. seems to do so in a realm outside of time and chronology then wouldn't seem to be a restriction and the law of non-contradiction would be removed from its current context.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[Hawaiian Puritan]

Whether this is theologically sound or not I don't know, but I heard a pastor put it this way during a sermon. It's sort of like when you go in for an operation and they put you under. Usually you don't realize you're out, what you remember the next instant is becoming conscious again. So, you may "fall asleep" for a long period, but you won't realize it because resurrection of the dead will be the next thing you experience.

I agree with the other poster that time probably doesn't operate the same way once you are out of this life and in the Lord's realm. He certainly is outside of our concept of time, so I don't see that it wouldn't be similar for us. I certainly hope so, because I would get bored sitting there strumming that harp forever. . . .

 

[Scott Shahan]

Thanks David-

Shoter Catechism:

Q. 37. What benefits do believers receive from Christ at death?

A. The souls of believers are at their death made perfect in holiness, and do immediately pass into glory; and their bodies, being still united in Christ, do rest in their graves, till the resurrection.

This raises my quesstion, and trying to wrap my head around, "immediately pass into glory" while still in the grave...... So in one sense not completly saved until the resurrection of the body.. So does this mean immediately pass into glory but with out your body? So just a spirit then??

-----Added 1/13/2009 at 12:17:20 EST-----

Whether this is theologically sound or not I don't know, but I heard a pastor put it this way during a sermon. It's sort of like when you go in for an operation and they put you under. Usually you don't realize you're out, what you remember the next instant is becoming conscious again. So, you may "fall asleep" for a long period, but you won't realize it because resurrection of the dead will be the next thing you experience.

I agree with the other poster that time probably doesn't operate the same way once you are out of this life and in the Lord's realm. He certainly is outside of our concept of time, so I don't see that it wouldn't be similar for us. I certainly hope so, because I would get bored sitting there strumming that harp forever. . . .

hey thanks Jim that analogy makes good sense to me. Jim so when Christ said to the thief on the Cross "Today you'll be with me in Paridise", the theif would have understood that to mean sometime later today??? is that right? But the thief on the cross would be in Paridise with Christ in spirit but not in body?? since the resurrection hasn't happened yet?? just askin'

 

[Pergamum]

I think Calvin wrote something against the then-prevalent anabaptist view of Soul Sleep didn't he?

Yes, we immediately pass into conscious joy or terror. No waiting unconsciously in the grave.


Paul spoke of being absent from the body and present with the Lord and he seemed to say that this was not the ideal...the ideal being a glorified body.

I.e. we die and our souls enjoy God asap until the resurrection, at which point God gives us now bodies and we enjoy enjoy God more it seems.

 

[Scott Shahan]

I think Calvin wrote something against the then-prevalent anabaptist view of Soul Sleep didn't he?

Yes, we immediately pass into conscious joy or terror. No waiting unconsciously in the grave.


Paul spoke of being absent from the body and present with the Lord and he seemed to say that this was not the ideal...the ideal being a glorified body.

I.e. we die and our souls enjoy God asap until the resurrection, at which point God gives us now bodies and we enjoy enjoy God more it seems.

thanks,
Do you know where in the Institutes I can find that? I am really interested in reading that.. just trying to clear up some of my fogginess that I have in my understanding. I just want to make sure that theologically I am thinking straight when it comes to understanding death resurrection of the body ect.. let me see if I am understanding....so when we die are souls go to be with the Lord right away. And then whenever the resurrection of the body is then we will recieve new glorified bodies. So when we go to be with the Lord that is "Paridise"/Heaven. So when we are there how do we recognize people without their bodies? just askin' thanks

 

[jwithnell]

Can't give you the Calvin reference off the top of my head, but can confirm that the historical, Christian perspective has been that the body and soul are separated at death (both very really parts of who we are) and that the soul goes to heaven if we are found to be in Christ and to hell if we are not.

When Christ returns, our bodies will be resurrected and we will live in the new earth glorifying Him for all eternity. (From Job, "though worms destroy this body, yet in this flesh shall I see God. And Isaiah and Mathew, "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds.")

I think it is important to recognize that though we will wait to receive our glorified bodies, we are none-the-less very really present in the afterlife. Gnosticism has greatly confused this issue. Nor is heaven a natural place for us (much less floating around for eternity on clouds with a harp as is the common misconception.)

 

[Scott Shahan]

Ive been reading about soul sleep idea...... [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep]Soul sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] and I see why there is such confusion........ I dont believe in soul sleep!!

-----Added 1/13/2009 at 01:46:51 EST-----

Calvin-

As long as (the soul) is in the body it exerts its own powers; but when it quits this prison-house it returns to God, whose presence, it meanwhile enjoys while it rests in the hope of a blessed Resurrection. This rest is its paradise. On the other hand, the spirit of the reprobate, while it waits for the dreadful judgment, is tortured by that anticipation. . ."

 

[Pergamum]

Google Calvin and also psychopannychia I think.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Google Calvin and also psychopannychia I think.

Thanks David........Calvin - Psychopannychia