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default

Puritan Board Freshman
I'm at the present moment having a discussion with a dear lady who is olden in both chronological and Christian age.

I quote: "1Peter says we are to speak as the oracles of God - we are not to use man-made words, like incarnation, responsibility, relationship, ceremonial, etec "

She is telling me that if it's not in scripture we should not speak it. I don't see anything wrong with using the terms... "Bible" or "relationship" or "ceremonial."

What do you all think about this?
 

Me Died Blue

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Ask her to show her where her view is even remotely supported or implied in Scripture. It's different than, say, the Regulative Principle - for the RP [i:22f70a9ed6]does[/i:22f70a9ed6] rest on numerous biblical passages that say and show that God only desires to be worshipped as He has specifically outlined. However, there are no such biblical passages speaking to vocabulary, outlining what words we should use to describe God and His Word.

In Christ,

Chris
 

default

Puritan Board Freshman
Joshua, no, she does not know it fluently enough to speak only the original language.

Chris, she's going on 1 Peter.
 

default

Puritan Board Freshman
Scott, I just asked her... her reply is " Well, we belong to the (Dutch) Reformed Church, but have stopped going there because the pastor will not discuss doctrine with me. He has chased away about 20 families of the older generatiion because he doesn't stick to the Belgic Confession... Before Harry died, we started going to a Brethren Church (close by)
acts6and7: They do not have pastors, and they encourage me to talk to them about doctrine - so they know lots of what I believe"
 

Me Died Blue

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
[quote:27fb595d8f][i:27fb595d8f]Originally posted by Loriann[/i:27fb595d8f]
Chris, she's going on 1 Peter. [/quote:27fb595d8f]

I realize that from your initial post; but what I'm saying is that she can't give any evidence at all that that passage is to be interpreted in the hyper-literal way she is interpreting it. Sorry for not clarifying that.

[quote:27fb595d8f][i:27fb595d8f]Originally posted by joshua[/i:27fb595d8f]
[quote:27fb595d8f][i:27fb595d8f]Originally posted by Loriann[/i:27fb595d8f]
Joshua, no, she does not know it fluently enough to speak only the original language.[/quote:27fb595d8f]Well there goes her whole premise for only speaking God's words. [/quote:27fb595d8f]

Great point, Josh. Since all English translations are only man's own words used to try and convey the original words, one could just as easily translate the phrase "and the Word became flesh" as "and the Word was incarnated," if they were using a dynamic equivalence translation philosophy.

In Christ,

Chris
 

Gregg

Puritan Board Sophomore
I think it's nice that she wants to stick with the Belgic confession. It is sad to see the pastor is losing families because he does not.
 

alwaysreforming

Puritan Board Sophomore
Just my take...

I could very well be wrong, but what is [i:4d76bdef0d]sounds[/i:4d76bdef0d] like to me is that this lady is just argumentative.
This whole argument/premise of hers is ridiculous. Probably the reason her pastor "refuses to discuss doctrine" with her is because he has found her to be stubborn and argumentative, and any "discussion" fails to bear any fruit.

Perhaps I'm reading her wrong, but this is what I'm perceiving the situation to be on first read.
 

Gregg

Puritan Board Sophomore
I would have to say Chris that your conclusion is based mostly on opinion. There must be more to it if 20 (older) families have left.

Gregg

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by Gregg]
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
Here is a curious point -

The Belgic Confession is premised on using "man-made words" to convey truth. That is what a confession does. To simply repeat the words of Scripture is not a confession.

So I don't understand how she can hold to these two opinions. Either she is faking it about the Belgic Confession (she really doesn't care for it) or she is inconsistent about the "man-made" words business, in which case her argument is really, frankly, foolish.

Am I missing something here?

This seems like a classic case of :hh:

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by fredtgreco]
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
[quote:4d9d05d77c]
The Belgic Confession is premised on using "man-made words" to convey truth. That is what a confession does. To simply repeat the words of Scripture is not a confession.
[/quote:4d9d05d77c]

:hanged:

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by webmaster]
 

Me Died Blue

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
[quote:4551fd9a0e][i:4551fd9a0e]Originally posted by Gregg[/i:4551fd9a0e]
I would have to say Chris that your conclusion is based mostly on opinion. There must be more to it if 20 (older) families have left.

Gregg

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by Gregg] [/quote:4551fd9a0e]

Gregg, as I understand it from what Lori has said, the reason the 20 families left is because the pastor didn't hold to the Belgic Confession - surely they didn't all share the view that we shouldn't use any theological terms that aren't in Scripture. Or did they, Lori?

In Christ,

Chris
 

default

Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:dde4d6793d][i:dde4d6793d]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:dde4d6793d]
[quote:dde4d6793d][i:dde4d6793d]Originally posted by Gregg[/i:dde4d6793d]
I would have to say Chris that your conclusion is based mostly on opinion. There must be more to it if 20 (older) families have left.

Gregg

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by Gregg] [/quote:dde4d6793d]

Gregg, as I understand it from what Lori has said, the reason the 20 families left is because the pastor didn't hold to the Belgic Confession - surely they didn't all share the view that we shouldn't use any theological terms that aren't in Scripture. Or did they, Lori?

In Christ,

Chris [/quote:dde4d6793d]


Greg, I'm not sure. I do know from talking at great lengths with her she does share with us the doctrine of Grace, but some things she believes and teaches are questionable... for instance, she has stated to me that adultery is not between a married person with another person (wether married or not). Her understanding is that one of the parties needs to be divorced. I've tried talking with her, but because she is 50 years my senior it's rather difficult. "the elder must teach the younger" doesn't mean chronological rather spiritual.. either way, she's got me by at least half century! :scratch:

Fred, excellent point.

I thought the this would bring some good conversation about "the oracles of God."
 

pastorway

Puritan Board Senior
So she will only speak God's Words? Tell her to read 1 Tim 2:11-12 next time she is instructing her misled "brethren" church in doctrine.

Old does not automatically equal wise.

Phillip
 

Mary

Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Loriann,

Of course I don't know, because I don't know the lady, but she reminds me of my mother. What my mom does is brilliant - she agitates other people until they are worked up for her cause, and then lets them do her dirty work for her. She has gotten rid of several ministers this way. So my question is, did the 20 other families leave the church completely on their own, or was she in the background, manipulating?

Personally, I would be very careful about befriending her too closely. She doesn't seem to have a meek and humble heart. And she certainly hasn't applied the "let the women learn in silence with all submission" admonition too seriously. I love how people only apply the Scriptures that work for them...

Is there a more Godly older woman that you could be learning from? We younger gals (I'm guessing you're around my age) have to be especially careful, because all of society is working very hard to turn us away from Godly and Biblical womanhood...

Tongue in cheek - maybe her husband's not really dead. Maybe he's hiding!
 

default

Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:7008073ff6][i:7008073ff6]Originally posted by Mary[/i:7008073ff6]
Hi Loriann,

Of course I don't know, because I don't know the lady, but she reminds me of my mother. What my mom does is brilliant - she agitates other people until they are worked up for her cause, and then lets them do her dirty work for her. She has gotten rid of several ministers this way. So my question is, did the 20 other families leave the church completely on their own, or was she in the background, manipulating?

Personally, I would be very careful about befriending her too closely. She doesn't seem to have a meek and humble heart. And she certainly hasn't applied the "let the women learn in silence with all submission" admonition too seriously. I love how people only apply the Scriptures that work for them...

Is there a more Godly older woman that you could be learning from? We younger gals (I'm guessing you're around my age) have to be especially careful, because all of society is working very hard to turn us away from Godly and Biblical womanhood...

Tongue in cheek - maybe her husband's not really dead. Maybe he's hiding! [/quote:7008073ff6]

Hi Mary,

Thank you for answering a lingering question in my mind, that being if you all have an unbiblical response to the "women issue".

As to what she had done and how she's done it I am not certain. We've only instant messaged afew times.

as for my mentor... No, I do not sit under this woman. I have a very dear friend I've knows over 10 years who's very knowledgeable in scripture and lives the Christian walk tighter than any other I've had the priveledge of knowing.

I agree, we are to be taught and be faithful to the truth.

Lori
 

yeutter

Puritan Board Senior
OK my link does not work. What can I say I am a computer illiterate. I found this link when I ran Warfield B. B. on yahoo. It was the 17th listing.
 

Gregg

Puritan Board Sophomore
[quote:9b8335558c][i:9b8335558c]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:9b8335558c]


Old does not automatically equal wise.

Phillip [/quote:9b8335558c]

Reply...

Nor do owls automatically = wise... but whoooo knows?:bouncy::bouncy:
 

Mary

Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Loriann,


[quote:741827c553]
Thank you for answering a lingering question in my mind, that being if you all have an unbiblical response to the "women issue".
[/quote:741827c553]

I hope I haven't put my foot in it...I wouldn't want to speak for the entire board. I'm pretty new here. I certainly don't have an issue with the "women issue". I really don't understand what is wrong with being a woman, and I don't understand this huge societal push to pretend that there are no differences and that fulfilling a woman's role is inferior or less important than fulfilling a man's role. I'm glad to be a woman, and I enjoy being feminine, and I don't think I would make a very good man. Following through with that, as a Bible-believing Christian, I understand that the male role is to lead and teach. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love me, or that I am a second-class citizen, or any of the other things we hear all the time today.

I would presume that the elder members of the board (those with more than a month in) would agree...

;)
 

default

Puritan Board Freshman
[i:63b2bcd96a]Originally posted by Mary[/i:63b2bcd96a]
Hi Loriann,


[quote:63b2bcd96a]
Thank you for answering a lingering question in my mind, that being if you all have an unbiblical response to the "women issue".
[/quote:63b2bcd96a]

I hope I haven't put my foot in it...I wouldn't want to speak for the entire board. I'm pretty new here. I certainly don't have an issue with the "women issue". I really don't understand what is wrong with being a woman, and I don't understand this huge societal push to pretend that there are no differences and that fulfilling a woman's role is inferior or less important than fulfilling a man's role. I'm glad to be a woman, and I enjoy being feminine, and I don't think I would make a very good man. Following through with that, as a Bible-believing Christian, I understand that the male role is to lead and teach. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love me, or that I am a second-class citizen, or any of the other things we hear all the time today.

I would presume that the elder members of the board (those with more than a month in) would agree...







PRECISELY MY POINT. YOU ANSWERED IT. I AM WILLING TO BET THAT THE MAJORITY WOULD AGREE WITH YOU THAT WOMEN ARE TO "BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD." THATS A SHAME TOO, BECAUSE I KNOW SOME WOMEN WHO ARE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE IN SCRIPTURE THAN ARE MOST MEN I KNOW. Now, that's not to say I think women should be pastors of congregations, but sometimes where no man is, a women need lead.

ok, patiently waiting for the :behead:.

Lori
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
Lori,

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but my response (above) would have been identical if you had said it was a man, a teenager, or anyone.

I have seen far too often in my days as an elder that a complaint of "the pastor won't talk with me about doctrine" usually means "he won't let me monopolize his time and agree that I am right." Both men and women are guilty of this. And given the fact that her argument about "man made words" is so off-the-wall completely wacko, I don't blame the pastor.
 

default

Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:796a13649f][i:796a13649f]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:796a13649f]
Lori,

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but my response (above) would have been identical if you had said it was a man, a teenager, or anyone.

I have seen far too often in my days as an elder that a complaint of "the pastor won't talk with me about doctrine" usually means "he won't let me monopolize his time and agree that I am right." Both men and women are guilty of this. And given the fact that her argument about "man made words" is so off-the-wall completely wacko, I don't blame the pastor. [/quote:796a13649f]

Fred, my comment of the "women issue" has nothing to do with this woman perswaying the pastor of her doctrine. My comment on the women issue was based off of Mary's post and a fear I had with this site. Don't get me wrong, I love this site. most of it is sound doctrine. I did, however, come to believe you all have a problem with men listening to a womans view, and sometimes the belief is that woman are to remain silent. This is not to say women should be contentious, i do not believe that. Nor do I feel woman should be ministers. But I've seen this go to such lengths that I was once told I should not sit at the feet of a dear elder sister who is not only knowledgeable to scripture but has been blessed with the gift of teaching. I was told, instead, I should order tapes and be instructed by them!

Paul, if I may inquire, where did Fred address the woman issue?
 

Mary

Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:33b2db4096]
My comment on the women issue was based off of Mary's post and a fear I had with this site. Don't get me wrong, I love this site. most of it is sound doctrine. I did, however, come to believe you all have a problem with men listening to a womans view, and sometimes the belief is that woman are to remain silent.
[/quote:33b2db4096]

Loriann,

First of all, PLEASE do not base your opinion of the entire board on anything I say. I am new here, and by no stretch of the imagination a doctrinal or theological giant. I offer my opinions only, and am always open to (gentle) correction, especially from church elders and/or ministers that post on the site.

Second of all, I haven't gotten the feeling that the men on this site don't want to hear a woman's view. If they didn't want to hear our viewpoints, they could very easily make it a male-only board.

It sounds as though you have had some negative experiences that may be coloring your view of the board, and I apologize if I have caused you any upset.
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
[quote:7f15535c7e]
My comment on the women issue was based off of Mary's post and a fear I had with this site. Don't get me wrong, I love this site. most of it is sound doctrine. I did, however, come to believe you all have a problem with men listening to a womans view, and sometimes the belief is that woman are to remain silent.
[/quote:7f15535c7e]

Loriann,

I have no problem listening to a woman's view and I don't think anyone on this board does. As the agreement for participation on this board states, and the moderators can correct me if I am wong, this is not a church so the Scriptural admonitions regarding women don't apply, they do not need to keep silent. It is only a discussion group among like minded christians. Personally I think its great that there are women who want to learn more about theology. Most of the women I know are not interested in theology. They consider it a "man thing". But growing in the knowledge of God (theology) is for all Christians men and women.
 

default

Puritan Board Freshman
Wayne.

Thank you, I truly needed to hear that. Honestly was becoming discouraged and almost deleted my profile.

Lori
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
[quote:31482ea310][i:31482ea310]Originally posted by Loriann[/i:31482ea310]
Wayne.

Thank you, I truly needed to hear that. Honestly was becoming discouraged and almost deleted my profile.

Lori [/quote:31482ea310]

Your welcome! So jump right in the waters fine :gh:
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
I would echo Wayne's comments, even as one who ddoes not believe in women being officers (elders, deacons) in the Church.

Far too often we are given the false dichotomy of women being in unbiblical authority, or assuming that they are somehow "second class" or "fundamentally inferior" to men. God has laid down roles for men and women, but that is no excuse to denigrate 1/2 of His creation.

Keep interacting!
 
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