Davidius
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
David answered how I would have.
Sorry for getting all up in your business.
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David answered how I would have.
Sorry for getting all up in your business.
Dawn - To be part of the church children must have come to faith in Christ, not just have been born into a "covenant family." Paul's instruction to children would have included all children capable of understanding the command, but I don't buy the reasoning that all children were part of the visible church. Regeneration is synonymous with becomeing part of the visible church In my humble opinion. But of course I would believe that. I'm a Baptist.
So if regeneration is pictured in baptism, and since infants may well be regenerate, then it follows that infants should be baptized.
Thus, is it your contention that none of the verses in the OT regarding children now apply to New Covenant believers and that portions or Psalms and Proverbs are "interesting" from a historical view but bear no present relevance?
Sean, let's skip for the moment the assertion that infants who have not exercised faith are regenerate.
I don't see how my statement that regeneration and faith are synonymous is fallacious. The faith I am referring to is saving faith, which takes places at or shortly following regeneration.
I define regeneration as the sovereign act of God whereby He changes the condition of the heart so that a person may believe by faith. I believe the visible church is made up only of regenerated individuals who have believed by faith alone.
"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also."
For me, end of story.
Infants may well be regenerate? They either are or aren't. Which is it? If infants are regenerate, does this apply to covenant families and non-covenant families. If the answer is the former, I would label that belief as covenantal semi-Pelagianism. Somehow I can't seem to trivialize Romans 10:9,10 and Ephesians 2:8-10.
So, basically, Baptists are out to do the impossible and along the way have been disobedient to the commands and examples of Scripture...
I believe the visible church is made up only of regenerated individuals who have believed by faith alone. For me, end of story.
This doesn't make any sense to me. If the visible church is made up of regenerate individuals then you're saying that every single individual who is a member of a true church is regenerate. Do you really believe that? What happens when it turns out that someone wasn't truly regenerate after all?
Matthew - I am not at all pinning my argument on Psalm 125 alone. James writes:
[bible]James 1:17-18[/bible]
And good gifts are not limited solely to the righteous.
[bible]Matthew 5:45[/bible]
[bible]Romans 1:20[/bible]
David - I suppose it is how you define terms. If by "visible church" you mean all that claim to be saved, then it is obvious that not all are saved. There are always goats in the midst of the sheep. When I use the term "visible church" I mean all true believers. Technically speaking a goat cannot be a sheep. The goat may dress as a sheep but can never be a sheep. A more appropriate term would probably have been "invisible church." If I applied the wrong term then I stand humbly corrected, but I think you now understand what I mean.
Thanks for pointing out the mix up in my terminology.
Andrew, I don't think you attacked me. I'm not offended by you or anything. I just thought you didn't deal with my posts. I interacted with your posts and showed them to be self-refuting. If you think otherwise, by all means, offer a reply, not a sentence which makes me have to guess wildly at the relevance of it with what I said.
Rich RULES!!!This thread has gotten a bit too big to be useful at this point. If you have some closing thoughts then please add them. If there are strings that you wish to pick up in a new thread then you're welcome to do so.
I know I've been asked some questions upstream in this thread but that's the nature of time zones. Going back now after the conversation has flowed downstream wouldn't be very useful.
To Richard (the creator of this thread): If after this thread is closed, you wish to add any parting comments, let me know and I'll get them in there for you.
Blessings,
Rich
May our Lord use the discussion in this thread for His glory. I extend the right hand of fellowship to my brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of which side of the debate they are on.
it because the baptist says these "children" are only the "professing" children.
Hence
is just for professing children
and,
is just telling fathers how to treat their professing children.
It's all so complicated if you're a baptist
I wish there was a smiley swallowing a bottle of sleeping pills.