Works Righteousness
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WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
I think not. That view of salvation is totally centered on man and our own righteousness. Salvation is based on faith in Christ alone through God's grace alone. It shows a lack of humility before God, as we are believing it is within our own efforts that salvation rests; as if our righteousness (which is compared to dirty menstrual rags before God) is enough to warrant salvation from God.
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
James 4:6
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
1 Peter 5:5
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
James 4:6
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
1 Peter 5:5
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
I agree with Gabriel here, but I wonder if you have ever heard of someone who believed that if you were sinning the moment that Christ returned you would not be taken.
This is mostly a dispie view regarding the rapture, but still, ever hear that before?
This is mostly a dispie view regarding the rapture, but still, ever hear that before?
***THe kind who insist you lose salvation at each individual sin until u repent and confess***
"6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".Hebrews 6.
andreas.
"6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".Hebrews 6.
andreas.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
I remember hearing that growing up in an SBC church. It definitely wasn't official dogma, but the idea remained.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
No. There are really two types of religion in this world. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ, and works of Pharisaical/Roman Catholic/Pelagian/etc. works righteousness. All of religion boils down to the fundamental difference: do we approach God in our own righteousness or in that of Christ?
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
"Take any religion and test it by this standard: Is it characterized by man or by God? If it elevates man, if it exalts man, if it deifies man, if it glorifes man than it's not the true faith. If it exalts God, if it gives God the glory, if it puts the diadam upon the crown of Christ than that must be the true religion."
-Rev. Ian Paisley, Free Presbyterian Church, Ulster.
"The Blessed Christ of God has finished the work. It is not Christ's sacrifice plus anything, it's Christ's blood and Christ's blood alone that saves the soul."
-Rev. Ian Paisley, Free Presbyterian Church, Ulster.
-Rev. Ian Paisley, Free Presbyterian Church, Ulster.
"The Blessed Christ of God has finished the work. It is not Christ's sacrifice plus anything, it's Christ's blood and Christ's blood alone that saves the soul."
-Rev. Ian Paisley, Free Presbyterian Church, Ulster.
lwadkins
Puritan Board Junior
I was once part of a study/prayer group (most from PC(USA) churches) that except for my wife and myself believed that if you sinned you were then not under God's grace until you repented of that particular sin. Boy were my wife and I unpopular in that group! They held to a lot of other beleifs that were very unreformed.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Robert Thieme embraces this teaching. It is called "The rebound technique". Sinning puts you outside of fellowship with God. Utilizing 1 John 1:9 brings you back in......
tdowns
Puritan Board Junior
My catalyst
Totally.
Finally hearing this from people's mouths is what made me realize, I need to find the truth, that the Calvary/evangelical view and the Reformed view don't mix, that there was a big difference in these theologies. For a long time, learning under a Calvary Chapel pastor, after hearing the doctrines of grace by Sproul and others, I didn't quite know how far off the Calvary guys were. You'd hear them teach Grace alone one day, then we can fall away the next. So I finally started asking around, and got the answer, "...if I die while sinning or if the Lord returns while I'm sinning, I'm going to hell..." I said, "Then you have the wrong gospel." I went to the pastor to see if he supported the man's statement, he said yes, I said, "See ya."
Amazing Free will, how sour the sound, to doom a worker like me....no thanks.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, to save a wretch like me....
TD
Totally.
Finally hearing this from people's mouths is what made me realize, I need to find the truth, that the Calvary/evangelical view and the Reformed view don't mix, that there was a big difference in these theologies. For a long time, learning under a Calvary Chapel pastor, after hearing the doctrines of grace by Sproul and others, I didn't quite know how far off the Calvary guys were. You'd hear them teach Grace alone one day, then we can fall away the next. So I finally started asking around, and got the answer, "...if I die while sinning or if the Lord returns while I'm sinning, I'm going to hell..." I said, "Then you have the wrong gospel." I went to the pastor to see if he supported the man's statement, he said yes, I said, "See ya."
Amazing Free will, how sour the sound, to doom a worker like me....no thanks.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, to save a wretch like me....
TD
turmeric
Megerator
But aren't some of these folks saved? I grew up around perfectionistic Pentecostalism which definitely teaches this view and listening to a local Calvary Chapel guy on the radio i realized they're still teaching that same stuff - but aren't some of these just very ignorant Christians? This is a problem for me as I know people who hold these views and it seems like a continuum from extreme works-righteousness & perfectionism to mild, i.e. the "out-of-fellowship" view, and I'm sure my mom IS saved and that some of the people I knew as a child were saved, and I can't assume this Calvary Chapel pastor is unsaved just because he takes Hudson Taylor a little too seriously, and then there's Hudson Taylor himself...Now I'm confused!
lwadkins
Puritan Board Junior
I'm not saying such are not saved Meg, far be it from me to make such a judgment. But it is a very painful way to veiw grace. We should all strive to obey God and repent of our sins but it's already been made clear by God's word that all our good works are as dirty rags.
[Edited on 2-19-2005 by lwadkins]
[Edited on 2-19-2005 by lwadkins]
I've never heard of robert thieme, but from just this one statement this teaching doesn't seem wrong?
After all doesn't sin affect our practical fellowship with God? It is our legal righteousness in Christ that cannot be affected. Unless i am misunderstanding the terms?
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