I agree that the reasoning behind it is sinful and based on false Arminian theology, but the act itself is not necessarily wrong. For the record, I also like the old time hymns. But more important to me is how God chooses to act...and sometimes it is not how I would have done it or what makes me comfortable.
Worship At Saddleback
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I agree that the reasoning behind it is sinful and based on false Arminian theology, but the act itself is not necessarily wrong. For the record, I also like the old time hymns. But more important to me is how God chooses to act...and sometimes it is not how I would have done it or what makes me comfortable.
alwaysreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
That's not worship. If that's worship, I would really like to hear an argument about what's NOT worship!
So, when these people stand before the throne of God, do they really have the audacity to think they'd get away with doing a repeat performance of that "worship" service? Is anyone in Heaven dancing like that? I bet not.
We've got way too many people "on stage" these days at church. Everybody wants their turn in the spotlight.
Shouldn't anybody held before the congregation to "lead" them in worship be an example to the flock themselves. It looks like all you need to do to lead the congregation is to have good dance moves. I bet you could even be a non-believer and still be allowed to be up their with them.
"Can Jonny dance with us on Sunday?"
"Sure, besides, him rubbing elbows with the rest of the dance team will be a good witness to him."
This is all rubbish and will be burned away by the all-consuming fire of the Almighty. (in my humble opinion)
So, when these people stand before the throne of God, do they really have the audacity to think they'd get away with doing a repeat performance of that "worship" service? Is anyone in Heaven dancing like that? I bet not.
We've got way too many people "on stage" these days at church. Everybody wants their turn in the spotlight.
Shouldn't anybody held before the congregation to "lead" them in worship be an example to the flock themselves. It looks like all you need to do to lead the congregation is to have good dance moves. I bet you could even be a non-believer and still be allowed to be up their with them.
"Can Jonny dance with us on Sunday?"
"Sure, besides, him rubbing elbows with the rest of the dance team will be a good witness to him."
This is all rubbish and will be burned away by the all-consuming fire of the Almighty. (in my humble opinion)
MrMerlin777
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Looked more like some high school talent show or somthing to me.
Personally I'd find all the lights, sounds and "party time" atmoshphere a bit distracting.
Not to mention what the kids were performing looks merely like a "cleaned up" version of somthing they might have seen in any MTV R&B video.
Personally I'd find all the lights, sounds and "party time" atmoshphere a bit distracting.
Not to mention what the kids were performing looks merely like a "cleaned up" version of somthing they might have seen in any MTV R&B video.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
It reminded me of a high school danceline routine.
Greg
Puritan Board Sophomore
Looks like how Brittany Spears would dance if she were on the stage.Talk about "entertainment" invading the church . . .
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
hmmm, Moses came down and Aaron told him "well, we were just worshipping God...thought he'd be pleased with our song and dance"....
BTW, this reminded me of the SBC we were in as teens. In fact, it reminds me of my in-laws SBC.
And yes, the moves used are sexual and are meant as sexual when danced to any kind of music with different lyrics. Changing the lyrics and tune doesn't make them any less so. Janet Jackson and Madonna from my highschool MTV watching days.
BTW, this reminded me of the SBC we were in as teens. In fact, it reminds me of my in-laws SBC.
And yes, the moves used are sexual and are meant as sexual when danced to any kind of music with different lyrics. Changing the lyrics and tune doesn't make them any less so. Janet Jackson and Madonna from my highschool MTV watching days.
I disagree.
VaughanRSmith
Puritan Board Sophomore
What is the purpose of the dancing? Is it a spontaneous reaction to the preaching of the good news of the gospel? No. It is choreographed, and premeditated. Is it designed to present a specific message to the church? No. It is pure entertainment.
It is there to look good. Sexual or no, this has no place in a church.
Really, when push comes to shove, all this can be attributed to is the worship of man. I look good, I can do all this stuff with my body, watch me go.
PS. For those claiming that the dance itself is not a sexual or overly sensual thing, do you see or would you expect to see an overweight or disabled person up there dancing away?
It is there to look good. Sexual or no, this has no place in a church.
Really, when push comes to shove, all this can be attributed to is the worship of man. I look good, I can do all this stuff with my body, watch me go.
PS. For those claiming that the dance itself is not a sexual or overly sensual thing, do you see or would you expect to see an overweight or disabled person up there dancing away?
1. You are right that this is most likely for entertainment.
2. No I would not expect to see an overweight or disabled person up there dancing away any more than I would expect to see them playing basketball in the NBA, doing the long jump in the olympics, competeing in kick-boxing or MMA, or any number of physical activities. It has everything to do with what they can or cannot do physically and nothing to do with their sexuality.
VaughanRSmith
Puritan Board Sophomore
OK, maybe my example was a bit too extreme. How about this: Would you expect to see a conventionally ugly person up there? If this is, as you say, for entertainment, then it has to look good. Remember, I said sexual or sensual. Sensual doesn't mean sexual, it means aimed at the senses. It is there to look good, therefore it has no place in church.
DaveJes1979
Puritan Board Freshman
Truly horrendous to watch.
Although, the bass player is sweeeeet!
Although, the bass player is sweeeeet!
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Sexual or not, (and I find it hard to fathom anyone seeing the same pelvis-thrusting moves that I did on that video -even as 'restrained' as the example shown in the video was, it was still of that kind of dancing - as anything but sexually suggestive) this kind of idiotic performance has ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE in any "ceremony" claiming to be God-honoring worship. This was nothing but a nightclub act, and should be utterly abhorrent to anyone who has any inkling of a concern for proper, Biblical worship. It was a performance, pure and simple, regardless of its merits or demerits otherwise.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Disagreeing doesn't change the facts. Not all, but enough of the movements were sensual (thank you to the person who split the terms sensual/sexual...sensual is a better term). I used to watch cheerleading and ice skating competitions. Yes, it is about what a body can do...but one has to admit that a goodly portion of the moves are INTENTIONALLY sensual. This is what attracts, it is what stretches the performance beyond the "boring norm", and gets them points (most of the time...thankfully there are those that have learned to win based on other merits alone). Some of these moves are present in the video.
And I agree, the rest of the aspects are a complete distraction. The focus is "look what we can do" rather than "Let's worship the Lord".
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I initially thought the criticism was about the hand movements by the kids or the swaying/clapping by the choir, both things I don't really have any issue with in the context of praise worship liberty...but then the choreographed dancing started and it was very obvious that this was more about personal talent displays and glorification that moved toward the licentious end of the spectrum, than focus on glorifying God - even with a charitable mindset, which I am prone to have, this was too much.
I would like to see the worship leader's systematic for allowing this type of dance or the Sr. Pastor's for allowing it.
Salsa and tango is not about worshipping God.
( ***sigh*** - ah, Rick - you are really letting me down...thank God for John Piper!
)
MrMerlin777
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I wonder what Rich Mullins would think if he knew that the song he wrote had been butchered in such a fasion as this. They didn't even use the original lyrics, just the chorus. And (not that he is all that important) the kind of guy he was I really wonder if he'd have approved of his art being used in that fasion?
I know theologically he wasn't exactly the best but I love his music, and the original song Awsome God truly made you muse upon our Awesome God. And when he played live he did what he could to not draw attention to himself but point to God.
He does have even better songs though. Frankly I prefer his stuff like The Colour Green, very worshipful.
I know theologically he wasn't exactly the best but I love his music, and the original song Awsome God truly made you muse upon our Awesome God. And when he played live he did what he could to not draw attention to himself but point to God.
He does have even better songs though. Frankly I prefer his stuff like The Colour Green, very worshipful.
non dignus
Puritan Board Sophomore
If a church leader thinks it's a good idea for boys to watch girls dance in church to a very stimulating style of music most often used with erotic lyics, I'd ask for his resignation.
Anton Bruckner
Puritan Board Professor
thaT video clip is disgusting. That looks like a mixture of a rock concert and a regular "getting jiggy with it" night club. And the music that goes along with the song is also worldly and wreaks of the flesh. I could see Backstreet Boys, N Sync and Justin Timberlake singing to it. Saddleback needs to clean up their act.
Even the very words of the song militates against that delusion that is going on. "Our God is an Awesome God". For that to be set to music, the music has to be majestic. MAESTOSO ALLARGANDO not Scherzo Capriccio
Even the very words of the song militates against that delusion that is going on. "Our God is an Awesome God". For that to be set to music, the music has to be majestic. MAESTOSO ALLARGANDO not Scherzo Capriccio
SRoper
Puritan Board Graduate
Maybe their understanding of "awesome" does not exceed the '80s slang use of the word.
MrMerlin777
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
This is a distinct possibility.
non dignus
Puritan Board Sophomore
Viewing the clip again, I noticed once the dancing started I completely lost track of the message in the words because of an admittedly good choreography.
My wife was reminded of the golden calf incident in Exodus.
I can see why the Saddleback formula is so popular.
One may see that it is a delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise....."
My wife was reminded of the golden calf incident in Exodus.
I can see why the Saddleback formula is so popular.
One may see that it is a delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise....."
shelly
Puritan Board Freshman
It definitly wasn't putting the focus on God and the lyrics were lame and the music was awful. Not that I mind a beat or anything. I mean it sounded awful. It's something I'd expect to hear coming out of some kid's garage band.
I do love Rich Mullins, but they butchered the song
I have to go turn some good music on to "wash the taste out" of my mind.
Ahhh... that's better
Songs for the Cross Centered Life -- good doctrine and a beat.
shelly
I do love Rich Mullins, but they butchered the song
I have to go turn some good music on to "wash the taste out" of my mind.Ahhh... that's better
Songs for the Cross Centered Life -- good doctrine and a beat.shelly
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
Does anyone have the clip anywhere other than Google? I can't access it and though I don't like the sounds of it, I find it hard to say anything about it without actually viewing the video.
That being said, if it is of an inappropriate nature, maybe I don't need to see it at all. (I never thought I'd say that about something that happened in a church!)
That being said, if it is of an inappropriate nature, maybe I don't need to see it at all. (I never thought I'd say that about something that happened in a church!)
BobVigneault
Bawberator
I thought it was very entertaining.
It was a great show.
It made me want to move.
Made me want to get down.
Gonna let down my hair and shake my hips like I just don't care.
We're gonna paaaaaaar-ty! Boom-shakka-lakka!
It was a great show.
It made me want to move.
Made me want to get down.
Gonna let down my hair and shake my hips like I just don't care.
We're gonna paaaaaaar-ty! Boom-shakka-lakka!
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Age and Christian Maturity
A few thoughts on this video clip.
The first would be what several of you brought up. It was as if a poor-man's Brittany Spear's little sister just became a Christian and wanted to show off for the whole world she were a new believer. The question that begs to be answered would be: "Is she really converted or just shallow soil? Let's wait and see. This foolishness may pass." Whoever taught her to respond that way had better bring her thoughts of worship aright fast and firmly as "she knows not what she does."
This is also an example in my eyes of how Christian rock and now worship is about 10 years behind the secular world in being hip. May Christianity be forever un-hip. This clip reminded me of a poor example of collegiate cheerleeding competitions and American Idol combined. It smacks of "look-at-me" worship rather than "Behold Christ."
I have (by God's grace) moved from this type of worship in the SBC to sober-minded worship with old/ancient hymns and their simple yet deepy profound words. Can you imagine the apostles and their wives getting-down in worship like this? God-forbid.
Since the option to worship like this has been around for millenia and has not been advocated by the greats (but rather smells more like Herod's wife's daughter dancing before him) let's keep our hips in place when we worship and worship God from our heart, mind and mouth. Stick to the ancient paths and God will be pleased and you will be blessed.
As for other cultures and their dance: missionaries of the past worked long and hard to irradicate pagan rituals from even new believers' mindsets. These dances are most likely a carry over from old sinful lifestyles.
All in all, as we get moe mature in Christ, we will become more uncomfotable with this style of fleshly non-worship, and long for worshipping in a quiet spiritual way even as a group.
A few thoughts on this video clip.
The first would be what several of you brought up. It was as if a poor-man's Brittany Spear's little sister just became a Christian and wanted to show off for the whole world she were a new believer. The question that begs to be answered would be: "Is she really converted or just shallow soil? Let's wait and see. This foolishness may pass." Whoever taught her to respond that way had better bring her thoughts of worship aright fast and firmly as "she knows not what she does."
This is also an example in my eyes of how Christian rock and now worship is about 10 years behind the secular world in being hip. May Christianity be forever un-hip. This clip reminded me of a poor example of collegiate cheerleeding competitions and American Idol combined. It smacks of "look-at-me" worship rather than "Behold Christ."
I have (by God's grace) moved from this type of worship in the SBC to sober-minded worship with old/ancient hymns and their simple yet deepy profound words. Can you imagine the apostles and their wives getting-down in worship like this? God-forbid.
Since the option to worship like this has been around for millenia and has not been advocated by the greats (but rather smells more like Herod's wife's daughter dancing before him) let's keep our hips in place when we worship and worship God from our heart, mind and mouth. Stick to the ancient paths and God will be pleased and you will be blessed.
As for other cultures and their dance: missionaries of the past worked long and hard to irradicate pagan rituals from even new believers' mindsets. These dances are most likely a carry over from old sinful lifestyles.
All in all, as we get moe mature in Christ, we will become more uncomfotable with this style of fleshly non-worship, and long for worshipping in a quiet spiritual way even as a group.
tfelice
Puritan Board Freshman
The funny thing is that while Warren creates this stuff supposedly to appeal to unbelievers. However, I have heard from many non-Christian people that have visited seeker-type churches that they were offended by the rock concert atmosphere and thought that they were making a mockery out of church.
There is a church in the Philly burbs that met in a movie theatre when they were starting up. Doing so they took on the nickname of "Movie Church". What is really bizarre though is that when they finally were able to construct their own building, they designed it to look like a movie theater. There is even a "ticket booth" in front of the church building. From the road it doesn't look like a church building by any stretch of the imagination. My father-in-law (who darkens the door of a church only for weddings & funerals) looks at it as if it is some sort of joke. So much for reaching the lost.
In my opinion, the seeker movement does little to reach the lost, but is simply creating a church for people who think they are Christian, desire to go to church, but want to be entertained and home in an hour.
There is a church in the Philly burbs that met in a movie theatre when they were starting up. Doing so they took on the nickname of "Movie Church". What is really bizarre though is that when they finally were able to construct their own building, they designed it to look like a movie theater. There is even a "ticket booth" in front of the church building. From the road it doesn't look like a church building by any stretch of the imagination. My father-in-law (who darkens the door of a church only for weddings & funerals) looks at it as if it is some sort of joke. So much for reaching the lost.
In my opinion, the seeker movement does little to reach the lost, but is simply creating a church for people who think they are Christian, desire to go to church, but want to be entertained and home in an hour.
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