Worship of Saints

[Scott]

This is an interesting excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia in the entry on Beautification and Canonization:

The worship of latria (latreia), or strict adoration, is given to God alone; the worship of dulia (douleia), or honour and humble reverence, is paid the saints; the worship of hyperdulia (hyperdouleia), a higher form of dulia, belongs, on account of her greater excellence, to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

You often hear Catholics say that Catholicism does not teach the worship of saints. This article indicates that there are levels of worship. The highest is reserved for God, the second highest for Mary, and the third for lesser saints.

Might be a good excerpt to use from a popular Catholic source to rebut allegations that Catholicism does not approve of the worship of saints. It approves of some forms of worship but not others.

Yuck!

 

[LadyFlynt]

they would just state that it states that it is not actual worship but a reverance. Do you not honour your mother? Just playing devil's advocate here...

 

[brymaes]

They would probably dismiss the Encyclopaedia outright as not representing what they (or their priest, or whatever) actually believe. So much for the unified, institutional church!

[Edited on 5-18-2005 by SharperSword]

 

[sastark]

Bryan - is your avatar Christian striking Apollyon? It's hard to tell because of the size.

 

[brymaes]

Yes, it is.

The Word of God piercing the arch-fiend!

 

[sastark]

Originally posted by SharperSword
Yes, it is.

The Word of God piercing the arch-fiend!

Very nice.

I just read through Pilgrim's Progress again the other day. It is a marvelous little book.

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

One of my catholic friends told me that when catholics pray to the saints its just like asking someone living to pray for you.

 

[sastark]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus
One of my catholic friends told me that when catholics pray to the saints its just like asking someone living to pray for you.

Yeah. Totally the same thing. Asking a friend to pray for you. Consulting spirits. I can see that.

 

[brymaes]

I used to live with my Romanist grandparents when I was 18. I noticed that every time I was out late, the St. Jude (I think...) candle was lit, and whenever I stayed home, my grandmother would never light that particular candle. I figured out later that she would light it so that St. Jude (or whoever) would "watch over" me.

 

[Authorised]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Just playing devil's advocate here...

Perhaps you didn't realize how literal that really is!





[Edited on 5-19-2005 by Authorised]

 

[LadyFlynt]

I did. Just feel it can be neccessary to seeing how we are going to deal with their responses. We also know several catholics that don't believe personally in praying to the saints...and yet they are still considered good catholics (had a priest tell us this as well).

[Edited on 5-19-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

The Catholic Encyclopedia also has this to say about dulia:

A further distinction is made between dulia in the absolute sense, the honour paid to persons, and dulia in the relative sense, the honour paid to inanimate objects, such as images and relics.

 

[Scott]

"they would just state that it states that it is not actual worship but a reverance. Do you not honour your mother? Just playing devil's advocate here..."

Yeah, I hear this sometimes. The beauty of the Catholic Encyclopedia is that it expressly uses the word worship (even if it is carefully qualified as encompassing three different things). If one accepts that the Catholic Encyclopedia provides accurate teaching on Catholicism (which most conservatives do - they like it), it his hard to say that one does not worship a saint if the Encyclopedia uses the worship.

On another note, while it is wrong to do any type of worship of anything but God, it is foolish to expect that the rank and file will make subtle distinctions among lateria, douleia, and hyperdouleia. They don't, unless they are well educated and highly motivated (which is rare).

 

[VanVos]

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day on this very issue. He was saying that praying to the saints is not an act of worship, but merely a petition for them to pray for us. I responded by saying that prayer in a religious context is always an act of worship. i.e. the Lord's prayer. What other scriptures could I use to prove this point?

VanVos

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

WCF, Chap. XXI:

II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to Him alone; (c) not to angels, saints, or any other creature: (d) and since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.(e)

(c) Matt. 4:10 with John 5:23 and II Cor. 13:14.
(d) Col. 2:18, Rev. 19:10; Rom. 1:25.
(e) John 14:6; I Tim. 2:5; Eph. 2:18; Col. 3:17.

III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,(f) is by God required of all men: (g) and that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,(h) by the help of His Spirit,(i) according to His will,(k) with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance; (l) and, if vocal, in a known tongue.(m)

(f) Phil. 4:6.
(g) Ps. 65:2.
(h) John 14:13, 14; I Pet. 2:5.
(i) Rom. 8:26.
(k) I John 5:14.
(l) Ps. 47:7; Eccles. 5:1, 2; Heb. 12:28; Gen. 18:27; James 5:16; James 1:6, 7; Mark 11:24; Matt. 6:12, 14, 15; Col. 4:2; Eph. 6:18.
(m) I Cor. 14:14.

IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful; (n) and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter: (o) but not for the dead,(p) nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.(q)

(n) I John 5:14.
(o) I Tim. 2:1, 2; John 17:20; II Sam. 7:29; Ruth 4:12.
(p) II Sam. 12:21, 22, 23 with Luke 16:25, 26; Rev. 14:13.
(q) I John 5:16.

 

[Scott]

See also this from the Larger Catechism. ALthough I am not sure about how FN 1160 supports the proposition it is cited for. I would consider Daniel's response to Nebuchednezzar's command to pray only to him and see if it was applicable.

Q. 179. Are we to pray unto God only?
A. God only being able to search the hearts,[1152] hear the requests,[1153] pardon the sins,[1154] and fulfill the desires of all;[1155] and only to be believed in,[1156] and worshipped with religious worship;[1157] prayer, which is a special part thereof,[1158] is to be made by all to him alone,[1159] and to none other.[1160]

[1152] 1 Kings 8:39. Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men Acts 1:24. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, show whether of these two thou hast chosen. Romans 8:27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

[1153] Psalm 65:2. O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

[1154] Micah 7:18. Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

[1155] Psalm 145:18. The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

[1156] Romans 10:14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[1157] Matthew 4:10. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[1158] 1 Corinthians 1:2. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.

[1159] Psalm 50:15. And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

[1160] Romans 10:14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[Edited on 5-19-2005 by Scott]

 

[Scott]

"nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.(q) . . .
(q) I John 5:16."

Andrew: I am curious - what is your view on what the sin unto death is.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by Scott
"nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.(q) . . .
(q) I John 5:16."

Andrew: I am curious - what is your view on what the sin unto death is.

I think this refers to the obstinate sin or blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which rules out the possibility of forgiveness and salvation and rather confirms reprobation.

As to the evidence of such, I like the comments of Calvin on this passage which remind us generally speaking to be charitable to others because we cannot see inside their hearts.

I also agree with these statements from Fisher's Catechism:

QUESTION 98. What is prayer?

ANSWER: Prayer is an offering up of our desires to God for things agreeable to his will, in the name of Christ with confession of our sins, and thankful acknowledgment of his mercies.

Q. 1. "Are we to pray to God only?"

A. "God only being to be believed in, and worshipped with religious worship, prayer, which is a special part thereof, is to be made by all to him alone, and to none other."[164]

Q. 2. Why is prayer to be made by all to God alone, and to none other?

A. Because "God only is able to search the hearts, hear the requests, pardon the sins, and fulfil the desires of all."[165]

Q. 3. May we not direct our prayers to any of the persons of the adorable Trinity?

A. To be sure we may: for the Three-one God being the sole object of religious worship, whichever of the three persons we address, the other two are understood as included, 2 Cor. 13:14.

Q. 4. Why may we not pray to angels, or saints departed?

A. Because it would be gross idolatry, they being but mere creatures; nor can they supply the wants, nor remove the miseries which sin has brought upon us.

Q. 28. For whom are we to pray?

A. For the whole church of Christ upon earth; for magistrates, and ministers; for ourselves, our brethren; yea, our enemies; and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter."

Q. 35. If we are to pray for all sorts of men living, how may we pray about the Roman Antichrist?

A. Out of the love we should bear to our fellow-creatures, who are under the yoke and dominion of the Roman Antichrist, we ought to pray no otherwise about him, than that the Lord would soon "consume him with the Spirit of his mouth, and destroy him with the brightness of his coming," 2 Thess. 2:8.

Q. 36. What do we mean, when we pray for those that shall live hereafter?

A. We hereby desire, that Christ's kingdom and interest may be propagated and advanced in the world, until his second coming, Psalm 102:18; John 17:20.

Q. 37. For whom are we not to pray?

A. We are not to pray "for the dead, 2 Sam. 12:23; nor for those that are known to have sinned the sin unto death, 1 John 5:16."[172]

Q. 38. Why should we not pray for the dead?

A. Because at death the state of every man and woman is unalterably fixed, Luke 14:22-27.

Q. 39. How may those be known, who have sinned the sin unto death?

A. By their rejection of the gospel which they once professed to embrace; by their malice and envy against Christ, and the way of salvation through him; by their treating the convincing evidences of Christianity, and the peculiar doctrines of it, with blasphemy and contempt; and by their rooted hatred of all religion, and the professors of it.

Q. 40. Why are we not to pray for those, who are known to have sinned this sin?

A. Because the sin against the Holy Ghost is declared, in scripture, to be unpardonable, Matt. 12:31, 32, in regard it is a wilful and blasphemous opposition to the testimony of the Spirit of God concerning Christ, as the only way of salvation, Luke 12:10.