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I voted for the Young earth, as that fits into a literal view regarding Genesis, as in the 24 hour days of Creation, and also for Mankind as a special creation of God.Please define your position further in a reply, if possible.
Why sad?I voted for the Young earth, as that fits into a literal view regarding Genesis, as in the 24 hour days of Creation, and also for Mankind as a special creation of God.
The main reasons it seems that many Christians have adopted the extreme age theory are that they have accepted a more limited view on Biblical inspiration, and also have accepted as being true the theory of Evolution.
I have yet to see a valid argument to support why there would be death in the creation before the Fall if the old earth is the right way to see this issue.I think young earth is more likely, given what I read in the Bible. But my choice is "undecided," because I think it's wise not to get too insistent where the Bible seems unconcerned with an issue. The Bible never bothers to do the math for us, and it doesn't give us a date or use the founding of the earth as a reference point for later dates. This leaves the question somewhat open—at least open enough that being true to the Bible leads me to vote "undecided."
The fact that many people who contend for an old earth reject the Bible's authority does not mean I too ought to dismiss the Bible by being over-assertive in the opposite direction.
many, but not all, who hold towards the much older view seem to be trying to accommodate evolution and dating facts that science seems to be supporting. The problem with that is that there are really good arguments against both evolution and how they are dating objects.I have vacillated on this. The geologic 'old earth' science is strong enough to not dismiss out of hand. But I don't feel compelled to go along with it because I do not believe that evolution (in the normal understanding) is going to hold up much longer. Old Earth won't be replaced with Young Earth since Young Earth, like evolution is not falsifiable.
I picked 'young earth' since it cleanly supports my inerrancy views, and does not violate any operable engineering principles. Otherwise I don't see any other reason to pick sides, unless you are chair of evolutionary biology at a university. If that is you, then you are probably Episcopalian so it won't matter to you either.
I understand the view that the earth was created relatively recently in history, as determined by more or less straightforward Biblical geneaologies and 6 approximately 24 hour days of creation (which ends up being around 6000 years).
Theistic evolution with a literal Adam and fall. In terms of exegesis, I'd say Meredith Kline's Framework view fits the actual text better than any other view.
I like how G.I. Williamson puts it:
"When I was a seminary student I became concerned to understand what well-known neo-orthodox theologians were saying. So I requested a special class for this since none was being offered at that time. Professor Addison Leitch agreed to provide this by assigning me reading in theologians such as Emil Brunner and Karl Barth. Well, I did my assigned reading faithfully, and then reported to Dr. Leitch. I told him it gave me a headache because these men didn’t make sense in what they were saying. They talked about things being supra-historical, and about people being both elect and non-elect. And then I would read the straight-forward teaching of Calvin (and other great Reformers). I could understand them. They did make sense.
So I came to the conclusion that God’s truth, while not always easy to understand, does always make sense. It is something I can grasp well enough to then teach it to others. But I am sorry to have to say that when I read some of the long church reports defending day-age, framework, or analogical views of creation, I get the same headache I used to get reading the neo-orthodox theologians. They just don’t make sense. They do not make me say ‘yes, that’s it; that’s what the inspired writer was getting at.’"
Kline, to my knowledge, offers no good alternative except one of doubting what the text seems to say. The inspired writers use the account historically. Why should we do anything less?
Conversely, we need to be careful not to use scriptures to get an exact date since there are often gaps in genealogies. Could the Earth be 10,000 years old? Quite possibly, but the biblical data and usage of the Genesis account seems to promote a much younger earth than science wants to believe, simply because scripture teaches that God created.
So people didn't come from rocks...but the rest of creation came from rocks?
I like how G.I. Williamson puts it:
"When I was a seminary student I became concerned to understand what well-known neo-orthodox theologians were saying. So I requested a special class for this since none was being offered at that time. Professor Addison Leitch agreed to provide this by assigning me reading in theologians such as Emil Brunner and Karl Barth. Well, I did my assigned reading faithfully, and then reported to Dr. Leitch. I told him it gave me a headache because these men didn’t make sense in what they were saying. They talked about things being supra-historical, and about people being both elect and non-elect. And then I would read the straight-forward teaching of Calvin (and other great Reformers). I could understand them. They did make sense.
So I came to the conclusion that God’s truth, while not always easy to understand, does always make sense. It is something I can grasp well enough to then teach it to others. But I am sorry to have to say that when I read some of the long church reports defending day-age, framework, or analogical views of creation, I get the same headache I used to get reading the neo-orthodox theologians. They just don’t make sense. They do not make me say ‘yes, that’s it; that’s what the inspired writer was getting at.’"
Couldnt agree more. Furthermore, the subjective experience of one believer isn't enough to go off of. In my estimation, the young earth creationist argument (Ken Ham and the like) has always been the most confusing thing to me, and I've never understood how it fit properly. The Framework view, to me, made the most sense than anything I've read before or since. This is only to say, if we go over, "what makes sense," then ultimately we have a lot of different definitions from a lot of different peoples because "what makes sense" changes. And like you mentioned, we have no idea if that's even helpful in the long run for our theology! Just because something makes sense to me (e.g. Framework View) doesn't necessarily mean I'm in the better position. Only that it's what makes sense to me and me alone, full stop. Is it true? I think so! But its comprehensibility means little in the way of truth.On one hand, I sort of understand the point being made here, but I feel like this is a rather problematic way of viewing Scripture and theology. If my affirmation of orthodoxy was only subjective "Aha!" moments of understanding a concept because it "makes sense", and then shying away from those others that were so much more complicated in comparison, I'd be a babe in the faith, if I had any faith, forced to be scared of doctrines that touched the Trinity, God's Sovereignty/Providence, sacraments like the Lord's Supper, Christ's deity, and more. There are parts that are certainly simple to comprehend--the Gospel is a truth that could be grasped by all men (though the "why" and "how" is often where some may struggle!). However, there are those parts that do not come naturally to my ears, my senses, my logic...it's why we even have a discipline of "theology" and a history of creeds and councils/assemblies that try to figure these things out--and they do not always end up lining to the simplest-to-grasp. Just because something "does not make sense", or does not yet make sense, that is not a reason to discount it. It may need study, it may require maturation, it may even require the work of Christ and the Spirit in illuminating, or simply time...but we should not be scared of what we do not know. We should also be okay with acknowledging and having questions that may not be answered exactly how we would expect.
This is something that I personally feel echoes too much from growing up in an anti-intellectual religious environment that largely took this to the fundamentalist extreme--anything that doesn't make sense, or seems incomprehensible, was something to be feared and distrusted--and that even lent to doctrines that I later would come to embrace and cherish in exploring the Reformed tradition! Oh, if I had not been so afraid of that which I did not understand, perhaps I would not have meandered as much as I did. Once I was not afraid, I was able to discourse with the "opposing" sides, and carefully came to understandings--sometimes with a fight and humble acquiescence on my side because I knew something was true, but at the time perhaps did not see the full 'sense' in it all. A lot of things don't make sense; for example, it doesn't fully make sense to me God's providence, his will, how some of that works out in time and history, but I fully affirm that God is sovereign.
How would you view the statement that God created all things after their own kind? That Adam was a divine/special creation of God?Theistic evolution with a literal Adam and fall. In terms of exegesis, I'd say Meredith Kline's Framework view fits the actual text better than any other view.
The Young earth model fits much better the genesis account though, since the Hebrew term chosen to be used for the days was nearly all of the time rendered as 24 hour period in the OT, and also, have to account for how death entered into creation before there was even sin and the fall.Couldnt agree more. Furthermore, the subjective experience of one believer isn't enough to go off of. In my estimation, the young earth creationist argument (Ken Ham and the like) has always been the most confusing thing to me, and I've never understood how it fit properly. The Framework view, to me, made the most sense than anything I've read before or since. This is only to say, if we go over, "what makes sense," then ultimately we have a lot of different definitions from a lot of different peoples because "what makes sense" changes. And like you mentioned, we have no idea if that's even helpful in the long run for our theology! Just because something makes sense to me (e.g. Framework View) doesn't necessarily mean I'm in the better position. Only that it's what makes sense to me and me alone, full stop. Is it true? I think so! But its comprehensibility means little in the way of truth.
How would you view the statement that God created all things after their own kind? That Adam was a divine/special creation of God?
That is certainly a popular opinion on this thread that I respect you for having!The Young earth model fits much better the genesis account though, since the Hebrew term chosen to be used for the days was nearly all of the time rendered as 24 hour period in the OT, and also, have to account for how death entered into creation before there was even sin and the fall.
Do you believe that there was a literal fall, that scripture in that section was real historical information, and not a metaphor/myth?Genesis is divided into 10 sections seperated by geneologies as intros to each new one, with a prologue creation myth. The genre of Genesis 1-3/4 by how it is written and organized, (in my humble view) resembles wisdom literature and protohistory rather than narrative historical accounts. Moses isn't writing as an eyewitness, but as someone who is attempting to tell the truths of creation in a way that others may understand.
To specifically answer your question, I'd have to view Genesis prologue as literal historical. I don't believe that Scripture is trying to tell us how things came to be, but the proper order that God created to the universe (otherwise light gets cremated twice, man gets created on day 1 in Genesis 2, etc.). So I see "kinds" as a message of God's plan for agriculture and breeding and the creation of Adam as being in his image, yet apart of nature, and meant to rule over it, with the woman being from his side, and thus equal but subjected to him. This also applies to the Sabbath. God "resting" didn't mean he stopped creating new things, since new things are made every day. It means he set a pattern in creation for us to follow to worship and glory in his creation, rather than place ourselves as its true god or let it rule over us. Hope this helps!
How would you handle the question of death before even the fall?That is certainly a popular opinion on this thread that I respect you for having!