Being on a bed with the opposite sex

[Ex Nihilo]

I think the matter of serial attachments may be the most significant issue in the way that relationships are manifesting strain in our time.

That is probably what I agree with Brother Lawrence about the most. Sparing his daughter of years of petty puppyish romances and more serious breakups even when purity is preserved. That more than anything just plain jades a women and it make men even more indifferent about marriage at all.

This is all so true. And by keeping a good relationship with his daughter, he is unlikely ever to have to enforce his standards through raw paternal power. (Not that a father shouldn't do this, if necessary, but surely everything works much more smoothly when the daughter directs her own heart according to those standards.)

 

[py3ak]

Of course the other side of avoiding petty, puppyish romances is that you never get to know someone until you're already blindly committed to them. While I never had any kind of romantic involvement prior to proposing to Heidi, I am glad that my parents were not so freaked out as to prevent me from having female friends.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Of course the other side of avoiding petty, puppyish romances is that you never get to know someone until you're already blindly committed to them. While I never had any kind of romantic involvement prior to proposing to Heidi, I am glad that my parents were not so freaked out as to prevent me from having female friends.

True, and though young women may be blind to the flaws of an attractive man, sometimes we also see things these men might hide from our fathers. We can learn a lot by hanging out with the guy's friends and seeing what their values are, which is also not something our dads can easily do. All the more reason to make sure fathers and daughters share standards.

 

[OPC'n]

I think Lawrence is right in how he protects his daughter. A young girl's heart can be swept away very easily even if she's had a good father as a foundation. I've seen it happen. It's the father's duty to protect her and help her pick out the best mate for her future. I believe that with all my heart....and that's coming from someone who really does know! I would have given my right arm for such a father! Lawrence, you keep fast to your convictions, brother!

 

[py3ak]

All the more reason to make sure fathers and daughters share standards.

If we can take it for granted that such standards are Biblical (which involves being rational and practical); and if we can take it for granted that the fathers are persuading and winning and exemplifying, then yes. But in the case of those fathers whose standards have more to do with their own ego than anything else, perhaps the best thing they can do is stand back and hope their daughters have more sense than they have any right to expect.

 

[he beholds]

Of course the other side of avoiding petty, puppyish romances is that you never get to know someone until you're already blindly committed to them. While I never had any kind of romantic involvement prior to proposing to Heidi, I am glad that my parents were not so freaked out as to prevent me from having female friends.

I typed up a response similar to this but deleted it! But since I am not alone in thinking this, I do think caution is wise, but so is a small measure of vulnerability!
I think men desire some kind of emotional availability from women whom they wish to share their hearts with, and if a woman is too guarded, she can get passed by.
My husband had a crush on me so sought to get to know me. Had I not welcomed a friendship, how would I have known that this was the man I wanted to marry? I mean, how does anyone know that without getting to know the person first? Thankfully he didn't pursue me romantically at first. But when he did ask me to be more than friends, months after we had become good friends, we both happily knew that if we started dating, it would end in marriage.

I guess I would say use caution in dating, but not as much in befriending. Don't date someone you wouldn't marry. But you can befriend someone that you wouldn't marry, because once you get to know them as a friend, you may end up where I was: a friendship turned into more, naturally.

Obviously my experience isn't a rule for happy marriages. There are people on any extreme end of possible scenarios who are now happily married: from a blind-arranged marriage to a 10 year engagement.
No, I am not giving a rule, but advice.

 

[LawrenceU]

Of course the other side of avoiding petty, puppyish romances is that you never get to know someone until you're already blindly committed to them. While I never had any kind of romantic involvement prior to proposing to Heidi, I am glad that my parents were not so freaked out as to prevent me from having female friends.

Having friends of the opposite sex is not the issue. It is emotional attachment to friends of the opposite sex that is the problem. I believe that is is vital for young people to have healthy, community based, relationships with the other sex. That is how you get to know someone. To think that emotional/romantic relationships enable real knowledge of the other party is pretty near sighted. Rarely, if ever, in those types of relationships is the 'real' individual on display. It almost always involves a covering of the person's flaws in order to appear more desirable.

 

[py3ak]

Of course the other side of avoiding petty, puppyish romances is that you never get to know someone until you're already blindly committed to them. While I never had any kind of romantic involvement prior to proposing to Heidi, I am glad that my parents were not so freaked out as to prevent me from having female friends.

Having friends of the opposite sex is not the issue. It is emotional attachment to friends of the opposite sex that is the problem. I believe that is is vital for young people to have healthy, community based, relationships with the other sex. That is how you get to know someone. To think that emotional/romantic relationships enable real knowledge of the other party is pretty near sighted. Rarely, if ever, in those types of relationships is the 'real' individual on display. It almost always involves a covering of the person's flaws in order to appear more desirable.

Superficial friendships are not much different from courtship displays in that regard, though. Until a certain closeness develops, you always have a persona on display - at least as a young person.

 

[ZackF]

Of course the other side of avoiding petty, puppyish romances is that you never get to know someone until you're already blindly committed to them. While I never had any kind of romantic involvement prior to proposing to Heidi, I am glad that my parents were not so freaked out as to prevent me from having female friends.

Having friends of the opposite sex is not the issue. It is emotional attachment to friends of the opposite sex that is the problem. I believe that is is vital for young people to have healthy, community based, relationships with the other sex. That is how you get to know someone. To think that emotional/romantic relationships enable real knowledge of the other party is pretty near sighted. Rarely, if ever, in those types of relationships is the 'real' individual on display. It almost always involves a covering of the person's flaws in order to appear more desirable.

Superficial friendships are not much different from courtship displays in that regard, though. Until a certain closeness develops, you always have a persona on display - at least as a young person.

What do you regard as a real friendship? I have never, I mean never, came across a man who has any luck being "friends" with a woman with whom he has unrequited affections for. I think it wise men to be friends with women through men unless it is obvious that something more may be possible. Otherwise, the usual result is just heartbreak and the heart hardening pattern of rejecting that Lawrence writes of.

 

[py3ak]

Why is the supposition that he has unrequited feelings for her?

Perhaps I'm not the one to say these things, after all, I've only had one serious relationship, it happened when I was quite young, and so the whole getting married deal that is sometimes so difficult was something of a breeze for me. I understand that my experience is not normal or normative.

But it does motivate me to want to point out that you can't make precut rules for these situations. By the standards of most fathers, Rahab would have been a bad match: but she became the ancestress of Jesus. I want advocates of paternal authority to be severely critical, as that would show that they are conscious of the dangers of their position.

Dumbledore said something very wise to Harry, when he remarked that if an old man and a young man don't understand one another, the old man has to take the blame: after all, the old man can remember what it was like to be young, but the young man can't possibly know what it's like to be old (though the young can certainly know that grey heads are to be honored). I want protective fathers to remember when they were pursuing the women who are now their wives. I want them to remember what they were put through: I want them to remember what protective parents put the women who are now their wives through. I want people to remember that sexual frigidity within marriage is a horrendously tragic issue, and is as real a danger as sexual promiscuity without marriage.

Is that so much to ask?

 

[christiana]

The OP declared this involved 'their fiances or what not'. That indicates strong affection present.

If my memory serves me well and if my intended could be next to me on a bed without any desire or move toward affection then he must have a problem and I would question his affection for me. I certainly never was in such a compromising position for if I had been my father would not have allowed my life to continue I'm quite sure! His words and warnings rang in my ears even when he was not present!!

 

[py3ak]

[I'm deleting my double post above, so Evie, I will need you to thank me again on the post that survived.]

 

[Ex Nihilo]

[I'm deleting my double post above, so Evie, I will need you to thank me again on the post that survived.]

Of course.

Edit: Actually, I think I'm out of thanks for the day.

 

[OPC'n]

Why is the supposition that he has unrequited feelings for her?

Perhaps I'm not the one to say these things, after all, I've only had one serious relationship, it happened when I was quite young, and so the whole getting married deal that is sometimes so difficult was something of a breeze for me. I understand that my experience is not normal or normative.

But it does motivate me to want to point out that you can't make precut rules for these situations. By the standards of most fathers, Rahab would have been a bad match: but she became the ancestress of Jesus. I want advocates of paternal authority to be severely critical, as that would show that they are conscious of the dangers of their position.

Dumbledore said something very wise to Harry, when he remarked that if an old man and a young man don't understand one another, the old man has to take the blame: after all, the old man can remember what it was like to be young, but the young man can't possibly know what it's like to be old (though the young can certainly know that grey heads are to be honored). I want protective fathers to remember when they were pursuing the women who are now their wives. I want them to remember what they were put through: I want them to remember what protective parents put the women who are now their wives through. I want people to remember that sexual frigidity within marriage is a horrendously tragic issue, and is as real a danger as sexual promiscuity without marriage.

Is that so much to ask?

I don't think Lawrence or others are trying to be such a brut that their daughter will never get married when the time comes. I think they will know the right man for their daughter when they see that man. If they have instilled any good qualities in their daughter and they themselves have those qualities, then their daughter will most likely gravitate to the man that her father approves of. Some wouldn't do this because of their rebellious nature and would want something entirely different from their father. Just because the young man has to work for their daughter doesn't mean they will have a frigid marriage life. A person who has a frigid marriage life has their own problems that were not caused by their father protecting them during the time they were choosing a mate. Men can precut what their daughter will do during her time of choosing her mate because she is under his headship. Using Rehab as an example is not a wise thing to do. One shouldn't give up their rules of conduct just because Christ had a harlot in His ancestral line.

 

[py3ak]

[I'm deleting my double post above, so Evie, I will need you to thank me again on the post that survived.]

Of course.

Edit: Actually, I think I'm out of thanks for the day.

Set yourself a reminder!

 

[py3ak]

Why is the supposition that he has unrequited feelings for her?

Perhaps I'm not the one to say these things, after all, I've only had one serious relationship, it happened when I was quite young, and so the whole getting married deal that is sometimes so difficult was something of a breeze for me. I understand that my experience is not normal or normative.

But it does motivate me to want to point out that you can't make precut rules for these situations. By the standards of most fathers, Rahab would have been a bad match: but she became the ancestress of Jesus. I want advocates of paternal authority to be severely critical, as that would show that they are conscious of the dangers of their position.

Dumbledore said something very wise to Harry, when he remarked that if an old man and a young man don't understand one another, the old man has to take the blame: after all, the old man can remember what it was like to be young, but the young man can't possibly know what it's like to be old (though the young can certainly know that grey heads are to be honored). I want protective fathers to remember when they were pursuing the women who are now their wives. I want them to remember what they were put through: I want them to remember what protective parents put the women who are now their wives through. I want people to remember that sexual frigidity within marriage is a horrendously tragic issue, and is as real a danger as sexual promiscuity without marriage.

Is that so much to ask?

I don't think Lawrence or others are trying to be such a brut that their daughter will never get married when the time comes. I think they will know the right man for their daughter when they see that man. If they have instilled any good qualities in their daughter and they themselves have those qualities, then their daughter will most likely gravitate to the man that her father approves of. Some wouldn't do this because of their rebellious nature and would want something entirely different from their father. Just because the young man has to work for their daughter doesn't mean they will have a frigid marriage life. A person who has a frigid marriage life has their own problems that were not caused by their father protecting them during the time they were choosing a mate. Men can precut what their daughter will do during her time of choosing her mate because she is under his headship. Using Rehab as an example is not a wise thing to do. One shouldn't give up their rules of conduct just because Christ had a harlot in His ancestral line.

Sarah, I'm sure no one is trying to be a brute. But there is no situation in human life where you can say, "this cookie cutter approach guarantees the right results". God doesn't give us that kind of guarantee. And when people develop that kind of idolatrous dependence upon the means very twisted things can result.
The point about Rahab is that she didn't fit a precut mold: but she was nonetheless an excellent choice.

 

[Grace Alone]

This makes me think of my Bible study last summer where we discussed Ruth sneaking in and sleeping next to Boaz! That's a tough one to understand!

 

[LawrenceU]

Why is the supposition that he has unrequited feelings for her?

Perhaps I'm not the one to say these things, after all, I've only had one serious relationship, it happened when I was quite young, and so the whole getting married deal that is sometimes so difficult was something of a breeze for me. I understand that my experience is not normal or normative.

But it does motivate me to want to point out that you can't make precut rules for these situations. By the standards of most fathers, Rahab would have been a bad match: but she became the ancestress of Jesus. I want advocates of paternal authority to be severely critical, as that would show that they are conscious of the dangers of their position.

Dumbledore said something very wise to Harry, when he remarked that if an old man and a young man don't understand one another, the old man has to take the blame: after all, the old man can remember what it was like to be young, but the young man can't possibly know what it's like to be old (though the young can certainly know that grey heads are to be honored). I want protective fathers to remember when they were pursuing the women who are now their wives. I want them to remember what they were put through: I want them to remember what protective parents put the women who are now their wives through. I want people to remember that sexual frigidity within marriage is a horrendously tragic issue, and is as real a danger as sexual promiscuity without marriage.

Is that so much to ask?

I don't think Lawrence or others are trying to be such a brut that their daughter will never get married when the time comes. I think they will know the right man for their daughter when they see that man. If they have instilled any good qualities in their daughter and they themselves have those qualities, then their daughter will most likely gravitate to the man that her father approves of. Some wouldn't do this because of their rebellious nature and would want something entirely different from their father. Just because the young man has to work for their daughter doesn't mean they will have a frigid marriage life. A person who has a frigid marriage life has their own problems that were not caused by their father protecting them during the time they were choosing a mate. Men can precut what their daughter will do during her time of choosing her mate because she is under his headship. Using Rehab as an example is not a wise thing to do. One shouldn't give up their rules of conduct just because Christ had a harlot in His ancestral line.

Sarah, I'm sure no one is trying to be a brute. But there is no situation in human life where you can say, "this cookie cutter approach guarantees the right results". God doesn't give us that kind of guarantee. And when people develop that kind of idolatrous dependence upon the means very twisted things can result.
The point about Rahab is that she didn't fit a precut mold: but she was nonetheless an excellent choice.

I'm not proposing a 'cookie cutter'. The Lord knows my years as a pastor have taught me that there is no such thing. But, that doesn't prevent me from trying to do the absolute best I can for my daughter and her future husband, Lord willing. If there is a derailment along the way I trust God enough to trust him with her. Stuff happens. That doesn't mean we have to play with it.

 

[py3ak]

Lawrence, I wouldn't be surprised if you feel a little beset, and perhaps even hardly bestead, by the two similar threads. That isn't my intention, or I think anyone else's. Since the world (the majority of the population) is erring along the lines of permissiveness and promiscuity it is certainly necessary to be very careful. But that can easily mean that within our small subculture the pendulum can go too far in the other direction. But as Lloyd-Jones always said, "Watch your strengths". It is on that very point that we may easily be tempted to excess.

 

[LawrenceU]

I don't feel pressed here at all. And I agree completely with your statement. We must work toward Biblical balance.

 

[BG]

Also posted in the dating thread

0

 

[Tallen]

Don't know if it was said, but:

Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1Th 5:22 KJVA)

It's easy math after that.

 

[py3ak]

See here.

 

[kvanlaan]

Dumbledore said something very wise to Harry, when he remarked that if an old man and a young man don't understand one another, the old man has to take the blame: after all, the old man can remember what it was like to be young, but the young man can't possibly know what it's like to be old (though the young can certainly know that grey heads are to be honored). I want protective fathers to remember when they were pursuing the women who are now their wives. I want them to remember what they were put through: I want them to remember what protective parents put the women who are now their wives through. I want people to remember that sexual frigidity within marriage is a horrendously tragic issue, and is as real a danger as sexual promiscuity without marriage.

My dear brother, I appreciate this statement greatly. BUT, I know in my case that I remember my sin and depravity in that time of 'searching for a mate' and whether it was merely in thought or deed, I think much of what you are running into with the more conservative among us here (in this regard) is that we remember what we were and want nothing more than to spare our daughters that pain and emotional affliction. I lean heavily on Biblical implications in this regard, and though I don't have a verse for every action, it is a wholesome and Biblical love for my daughters in view of the world we live in to act in this manner, please understand that.

-----Added 3/20/2009 at 10:39:37 EST-----

I manage peoples' money for a living, and while dealing with the life savings of hard working folks is important, nothing weighs heavier than the God-given responsibility of raising my children in His ways. Hence the gravity and seemingly over-serious attitude toward it.

-----Added 3/20/2009 at 10:41:16 EST-----

A pastor friend of mine once told me, "The best way to learn something, is not by experience, but to listen to the wisdom of those who have gone before you and already made mistakes and follow their advice."

If I could go back and do it all over again, I would not have permitted myself to date.

Ding ding ding!

 

[LawrenceU]

My dear brother, I appreciate this statement greatly. BUT, I know in my case that I remember my sin and depravity in that time of 'searching for a mate' and whether it was merely in thought or deed, I think much of what you are running into with the more conservative among us here (in this regard) is that we remember what we were and want nothing more than to spare our daughters that pain and emotional affliction. I lean heavily on Biblical implications in this regard, and though I don't have a verse for every action, it is a wholesome and Biblical love for my daughters in view of the world we live in to act in this manner, please understand that.

Kevin, I could not have said it any better. That sums it up. Thanks.

 

[py3ak]

My dear brother, I appreciate this statement greatly. BUT, I know in my case that I remember my sin and depravity in that time of 'searching for a mate' and whether it was merely in thought or deed, I think much of what you are running into with the more conservative among us here (in this regard) is that we remember what we were and want nothing more than to spare our daughters that pain and emotional affliction. I lean heavily on Biblical implications in this regard, and though I don't have a verse for every action, it is a wholesome and Biblical love for my daughters in view of the world we live in to act in this manner, please understand that.

Kevin, I could not have said it any better. That sums it up. Thanks.

The application of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a little subtle. Children can get away with assuming that since they would really like a little jar of goop, so would everyone else, and hence they give goop as a gift (although I must admit those little jars of goop do have an odd fascination). But adults know that "doing unto others" involves a refusal to project ourselves. I like it when people buy me books from my Amazon wish list; that doesn't mean that I can buy other people books from my Amazon wish list and they will be equally happy.

So here is the question for the more "conservative": did your parents walk you through a courtship? If the answer is "no, and I wish they had" are you sure that projection on your part plays no role in what you are planning to do? If the answer is "yes, and it was a nightmare", what are you planning to do differently? If the answer is, "yes, and I loved it" are you sure that you are not assuming your child has the same personality that you did?

 

[kvanlaan]

The application of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a little subtle. Children can get away with assuming that since they would really like a little jar of goop, so would everyone else, and hence they give goop as a gift (although I must admit those little jars of goop do have an odd fascination). But adults know that "doing unto others" involves a refusal to project ourselves. I like it when people buy me books from my Amazon wish list; that doesn't mean that I can buy other people books from my Amazon wish list and they will be equally happy.

Agreed, but since the way I behave toward my children is the product of much Biblical study and contemplation, I think I should share it and advocate it! How much do I have to hate someone to keep from a brother a gift that God has given me? We are a confessional group here, we're not talking about a special 'revelation' like the WOF bunch. We're talking about application of Scripture in the light of grievous sin. (Sure, some of this may fall under Christian liberty, but I am offering hard-won wisdom, if I can call it that, to save others from what I have suffered and inflicted upon others).

I would plead in tears with my child not to date if it did not involve the confession my own sins in the process. Because I've seen the bottom, and know that my child, as someone I love and care for, does not belong there as a Christian, I will do anything to keep them from going there. I see courtship/abstinence from the appearance of sin as a viable way of doing that.

 

[py3ak]

Well, as I suggested elsewhere, maybe sometime soon when things are otherwise calm we can look at the Scriptures whose implications would touch on this point.

And of course you should advocate your position: you should also expect rational opposition, and you shouldn't lay heavy burdens that are difficult to bear upon others. For instance, requiring young men to submit a detailed history of their past sins to a stern potential father-in-law, when in actuality if such a topic is any of your business, it will be because they have come to trust you, is a dicey proposition. Also, any man worth having a a husband will have the ability to blow you off when you're wrong, and defy you when you overstep your boundaries.

 

[kvanlaan]

And of course you should advocate your position: you should also expect rational opposition, and you shouldn't lay heavy burdens that are difficult to bear upon others. For instance, requiring young men to submit a detailed history of their past sins to a stern potential father-in-law, when in actuality if such a topic is any of your business, it will be because they have come to trust you, is a dicey proposition. Also, any man worth having a a husband will have the ability to blow you off when you're wrong, and defy you when you overstep your boundaries.

That's just it, I don't know that I would require a confession of past sins to me; I would hope he would confess these things to my daughter, though. Who am I to hold a man to moral perfection? A sure knowledge that he is cleansed by Christ's blood is something I'd like to see before I give my blessing. Not that I'm going to take him to the basement, shine a flashlight in his eyes, and interrogate him until he cracks, that's not it at all. I want to get to know him, even as another son. Please don't mistake my vigilance for some sort of crusade to pummel him verbally/emotionally to break his will and spill his soul to me. I just want to be able to stand before the Lord and say that I have honestly done my best in this regard.

and defy you when you overstep your boundaries.

I don't think that what I am proposing to do is this in the least.

 

[LawrenceU]

Right there with you, Kevin.