Tithing - Gross or After Taxes?

[greenbaggins]

Just for a bit of perspective, I once preached to a farming community about tithing, and mentioned the difference between gross and net. Then a farmer kindly explained to me that it can't work like that for an average farmer to tithe his gross income. He may have made a million dollars gross, but his expenses were 900k. If he tithes on his gross, he has zero income left at all. It is very important not to get legalistic about the tithe. God loves a cheerful giver. Legalistic tithe-mongering (not saying anyone on the thread has done this, but I have seen it happen) prevents cheerful giving by definition.

 

[Jake]

Just for a bit of perspective, I once preached to a farming community about tithing, and mentioned the difference between gross and net. Then a farmer kindly explained to me that it can't work like that for an average farmer to tithe his gross income. He may have made a million dollars gross, but his expenses were 900k. If he tithes on his gross, he has zero income left at all. It is very important not to get legalistic about the tithe. God loves a cheerful giver. Legalistic tithe-mongering (not saying anyone on the thread has done this, but I have seen it happen) prevents cheerful giving by definition.

Oftentimes this discussion assumes a view where your income comes from a W2-style paycheck, and you're deciding whether to tithe after taxes or not. But the considerations are different for a retired person drawing from a retirement account or for a person running their own business (which I would put a lot of farmers more into that category), even though these are common scenarios. Net versus gross even has a different meaning with a 1099 worker than a W2 worker. Should a W2 worker pay 10% of his income to tithe on the total of the benefits his employer pays, including payroll taxes, benefits, etc.? Because that is how a 1099 worker would be doing if they paid taxes on net.

I personally tend more toward Dr. Duguid's view -- the New Testament demands generous giving, not a percentage. 10% is not generous for a person pulling in hundreds of thousands of dollars and living a modest life, but 10% is very generous for a person who can barely make rent (cf., the Lesson of the Widow's Mite). The specifics of tithing law were written around an economic system distinct from our own, and we shouldn't try to make a specific law for our own time that goes beyond Scripture.

 

[De Jager]

Just for a bit of perspective, I once preached to a farming community about tithing, and mentioned the difference between gross and net. Then a farmer kindly explained to me that it can't work like that for an average farmer to tithe his gross income. He may have made a million dollars gross, but his expenses were 900k. If he tithes on his gross, he has zero income left at all. It is very important not to get legalistic about the tithe. God loves a cheerful giver. Legalistic tithe-mongering (not saying anyone on the thread has done this, but I have seen it happen) prevents cheerful giving by definition.

I agree with the farmer's perspective. For a business owner they should only give based on the salary they pull from the business. Of course then the same question as the OP arises, because the government will tax you on the salary you pull from the business.

 

[B.L.]

I cheerfully give 10% of what hits my direct deposit twice a month.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

When is volume 1 of the ESVEC coming out?

Last I saw it was sometime towards the end of 2024, unless we get rapt…..

 

[De Jager]

One could argue that the "general equity" of tithing requires us to use part of our income to support the church as opposed to a literal tithe. From what I have read, most Reformed divines take this view, though I could be mistaken.

I would be very interested in reading some of the reformers on this practice. Any links would be appreciated.

 

[BertMulder]

Paul gives the answer in 2 Corinthians 9:6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully[a] will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

In other words, neither on the gross or the net, but give out of thankfulness to the Lord, not out of a legalistic compulsion, as the Lord has blessed you.

 

[Polanus1561]

6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Seems like a conscience/relative issue to me. I am afraid standardized principles like 10% this or that lets us off the hook with regards to wrestling with our conscience and gratitude when it comes to giving.

 

[Kenan]

I think gross - God should get the firstfruits regardless of what the govt. wants, or I want or need.

Proverbs 3:9-10 ESV “9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
10 then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.”

Let’s say lightning struck and burnt 50% of your crop.

Or a thief comes and takes 50% of your crop.

Can you tithe on that which does not exist?
another way to ask the same question is, do you tithe on the theoretical potential amount of a full crop?

Or do you tithe only on that which remains?


I think we are to tithe only on that which remains, and not that which was taken away from us.
And remember that you’re not supposed to harvest your land completely, but leave the edges for the poor and sojourners.
Which means you are only tithing on crop harvested (not the theoretical potential of a full harvest).


For the Church to be more well funded for Kingdom building, pastors would need to teach their congregation about the proper understanding of taxation and how much taxation is required to be paid to the government for them to do their one job as God’s ministers of vengeance, and not all the other jobs they self declare (education, hospitals, roads, social welfare, science, art, etc).

The less tax is paid, the more tithing increases.

In 1 Samual 8 we learn that God judges a nation by giving them a ruler that taxes them 10%.
And we know that tithing is 10%.
So, should the government receive a greater token than God?

Let’s say you earn $100,000
The government taxes you 10% (judgment) which is $10,000, and you’re left with $90,000.
Of that $90,000 which remains you tithe 10% which is 9,000.
That means the government received a greater token than God, 11% more.

Now, let’s reduce the government tax to less than 10%, let’s say 9%.
The government would receive $9,000.
And your tithe would be $9,100.
Now God receives a greater token than the government, all the while you tithe on that which remains.

I very quickly skimmed through something by RJ Rushdoony (I think it was him) where the argument for the correct amount of taxation is way way way less than 9%. I have the article saved somewhere on my phone for future study.

 

[Polanus1561]

Let’s say lightning struck and burnt 50% of your crop.

Or a thief comes and takes 50% of your crop.

Can you tithe on that which does not exist?
another way to ask the same question is, do you tithe on the theoretical potential amount of a full crop?

Or do you tithe only on that which remains?


I think we are to tithe only on that which remains, and not that which was taken away from us.
And remember that you’re not supposed to harvest your land completely, but leave the edges for the poor and sojourners.
Which means you are only tithing on crop harvested (not the theoretical potential of a full harvest).


For the Church to be more well funded for Kingdom building, pastors would need to teach their congregation about the proper understanding of taxation and how much taxation is required to be paid to the government for them to do their one job as God’s ministers of vengeance, and not all the other jobs they self declare (education, hospitals, roads, social welfare, science, art, etc).

The less tax is paid, the more tithing increases.

In 1 Samual 8 we learn that God judges a nation by giving them a ruler that taxes them 10%.
And we know that tithing is 10%.
So, should the government receive a greater token than God?

Let’s say you earn $100,000
The government taxes you 10% (judgment) which is $10,000, and you’re left with $90,000.
Of that $90,000 which remains you tithe 10% which is 9,000.
That means the government received a greater token than God, 11% more.

Now, let’s reduce the government tax to less than 10%, let’s say 9%.
The government would receive $9,000.
And your tithe would be $9,100.
Now God receives a greater token than the government, all the while you tithe on that which remains.

I very quickly skimmed through something by RJ Rushdoony (I think it was him) where the argument for the correct amount of taxation is way way way less than 9%. I have the article saved somewhere on my phone for future study.

Would it be advisable to move country with the right tax rate if it is possible?

 

[Kenan]

Would it be advisable to move country with the right tax rate if it is possible?

We are to teach the nations to obey to obey all that our King Jesus has commanded (Matthew 28:18-20).

The teaching of the nations to obey, Kingdom building, takes place slowly but surely like leaven in a lump until it permeates it all (Matthew 13:33).

We know that there is nothing wrong with fleeing persecution (Proverbs 22:3; Matthew 10:23).

Sometimes for judgment to befall a rebellious nation it first requires the righteous and their family to first flee from it.
Righteous Lot and his family fleeing Sodom and Gomorrah before fire rained down from heaven.
The early Christians fled Jerusalem when they saw the Roman army retreat that had surrounded it, then the Christians fled, and then Roman army returned and judgment fell upon the covenant breakers.

Should you move country because of tax rates? I don’t know.

It hurts to see how much tax I pay in Australia, and how that tax money is used for government programs like our NDIS (national disability insurance scheme) that pays prostitutes to visit disabled people to give them sexual release. Pure evil.

In Australia the tax rate is about 60% once you add up income tax, sales tax, payroll tax, fuel excise tax, land tax, vehicle registration, inflation (tax on savings), capital gains tax, stamp duty, council rates, import tax, carbon tax, forced superannuation contribution (forced investment scam to prop up industries and financial institutions), etc.
Whether the tax is direct or indirect, it adds up and affects everyone.
I work a 38 hour week but really I only get paid for 15.2 hours after I pay all these nonsense taxes.

I don’t deduct all the different taxes before tithing because it would be a nightmare to workout. I pick the main ones, income tax, sales tax, inflation, superannuation contribution. And then for good conscience of not wanting to be wrong in my calculations I add 10%.

For example.
If I were to earn $100k.
I add up all those main taxes and I’m left with $50k.
My 10% tithe would be $5,000.
But I add 10% to that, making my tithe $5,500 so that my conscience is clear if I were to be in error in my calculations.

Separate to this I give a free offering of 5% and following the same formula, making my free offering $2,750.

And I separate these two payments when I transfer them to my Church.

And I do the tithe and offering on the day I get paid.

 

[DanSSwing]

It hurts to see how much tax I pay in Australia, and how that tax money is used for government programs like our NDIS (national disability insurance scheme) that pays prostitutes to visit disabled people to give them sexual release. Pure evil.

wow.

 

[Ed Walsh]

In Australia the tax rate is about 60% once you add up income tax, sales tax, payroll tax, fuel excise tax, land tax, vehicle registration, inflation (tax on savings), capital gains tax, stamp duty, council rates, import tax, carbon tax, forced superannuation contribution (forced investment scam to prop up industries and financial institutions), etc.
Whether the tax is direct or indirect, it adds up and affects everyone.
I work a 38 hour week, but really, I only get paid for 15.2 hours after I pay all these nonsense taxes.

Below is My Opinion, or Practice -- Please take it as that and not a rant against others who have reached a different position in their life. I agree with the good Doctor @iainduguid , that the Mosaic legislation regarding tithing rules has passed away, leaving it, as is often the case, with only the general equity thereof remaining.

I have judged it my responsibility according to what I see as Scriptural evidence for tithing as a Creation Mandate as the general (or default) rule in the Church for all time.

Pragmatically, there is a point at which the taxes are so high that to pay 10% of our gross income could be 80% or even 100% of the take-home pay. But that isn't the situation we find here in the USA -- yet. Our taxes total over 50%, just like yours do. And because of the prosperity of our times, I've still tithed 10% of the gross since 2015. Although I do this willingly and happily, I would be terrified not to do so.

I say this without any pride at all. I don't even consider it giving to the Lord. It's a debt. It's like rent or the mortgage. Your lender doesn't thank you when you pay your monthly bill, does he? Neither should we be thanked for doing only our duty.

Malachi calls it robbery from God to do less.

 

[John The Baptist]

Another unique situation which makes the gross or net distinction tough:

As part of our payment package, my wife and I have housing provided, along with utilities, health insurance, food (for 3 months of the year), among other things. The sum of these things is not calculated for us and we don’t see the bills. Therefore, we give based on our paycheck, not our total package, for that is impossible for us to figure.

When deciding what we would be giving on a pay-period basis, we didn’t really consider percentage. Instead, we joyfully give an amount we felt honored Christ by supporting His Bride and a couple missionaries/missionary groups.

 

[TheInquirer]

I think telling people what you tithe is gross.

 

[De Jager]

I think after all my internal wrangling I am going to stick to the 10% gross. I don't like the idea of giving God a portion after the government has taken theirs. Whether I'm right or wrong, I'm sure the Lord will inform me one day. I have also realized that if I had been smarter and more stewardly with my money in years gone by, this likely wouldn't be a pertinent question. I am ashamed to say I have frivolously spent money in the past and have not budgeted. Since I am an engineer I make a good income but I have not stewarded it well. Only this year have I really started to nail down my finances and really tracked things like I should.

I really appreciate all of your input, I hope this thread has been and can be edifying.

 

[Ed Walsh]

As part of our payment package, my wife and I have housing provided, along with utilities, health insurance, food (for 3 months of the year), among other things. The sum of these things is not calculated for us and we don’t see the bills. Therefore, we give based on our paycheck, not our total package, for that is impossible for us to figure.

I've been the Owner and CEO of a small engineering firm for 30 years, so intangible income is familiar.
Here's what I do. List the approximate value of the goods and services received, add 'em up, round 'em, move the decimal one place to the left, and DONE.

Now that's not so hard, is it?

 

[John The Baptist]

I've been the Owner and CEO of a small engineering firm for 30 years, so intangible income is familiar.
Here's what I do. List the approximate value of the goods and services received, add 'em up, round 'em, move the decimal one place to the left, and DONE.

Now that's not so hard, is it?

Indeed, it’s possible. I reckon we approximate unintentionally. We do not live (and therefore give) as if we only make what we get as a paycheck. If we did we would have to take up begging on the side.

 

[Brian Withnell]

Asking the question is begging for legalism. Give for the ministry for which you live. You will *always* wish you could give more. And if you wish you could give more, and you diligently work ... you might be able to get there. Don't worry about looking at a metric. Give what you are moved to give. Not unwisely ... you likely have responsibilities that you must handle. Do you have a wife? Children? You have to provide for them as well. A better question to ask is on what do you spend your money?

 

[Kenan]

Asking the question is begging for legalism. Give for the ministry for which you live. You will *always* wish you could give more. And if you wish you could give more, and you diligently work ... you might be able to get there. Don't worry about looking at a metric. Give what you are moved to give. Not unwisely ... you likely have responsibilities that you must handle. Do you have a wife? Children? You have to provide for them as well. A better question to ask is on what do you spend your money?

If there is no standard, then it becomes subject to tyranny.

The pastor may tyrannically demand more than what God has commanded and cause the congregation to become impoverished.

Or the congregation may become the tyrants themselves by giving less than the standard, and then the pastor and his family become impoverished.

So I think it’s good for everyone to be clear on what that standard is, for it means we want to honour God’s way as the only way of doing things.

Tithing and free offerings are separate.
Tithing is 10%.
Free offerings are over and above tithing, and you are free to decide on the amount. And the amount can vary each time you give it.

 

[LittleFaith]

If there is no standard, then it becomes subject to tyranny.

The pastor may tyrannically demand more than what God has commanded and cause the congregation to become impoverished.

Or the congregation may become the tyrants themselves by giving less than the standard, and then the pastor and his family become impoverished.

So I think it’s good for everyone to be clear on what that standard is, for it means we want to honour God’s way as the only way of doing things.

Tithing and free offerings are separate.
Tithing is 10%.
Free offerings are over and above tithing, and you are free to decide on the amount. And the amount can vary each time you give it.

I outlined my viewpoint above (and I would still welcome pastoral input from @iainduguid on the matter)... but while I think of the 10% as a minimum for myself, I don't recognize it as a sweeping mandate for all believers. So I'm genuinely curious - what is your biblical basis for a mandatory 10% tithe?

 

[Kenan]

I outlined my viewpoint above (and I would still welcome pastoral input from @iainduguid on the matter)... but while I think of the 10% as a minimum for myself, I don't recognize it as a sweeping mandate for all believers. So I'm genuinely curious - what is your biblical basis for a mandatory 10% tithe?

(Genesis 28:18–22)
10% is set as the standard prior to the levitical priesthood, and prior to any temple being built. It was set as the standard at the first stone that Jacob had laid down as a pillar to be God’s house.


(1 Corinthians 9:13–14)
Just as the ministers, the levitical priests, in the Old Testament lived off of the temple and the tithe given, in like manner the ministers of the gospel in the New Testament are to live off of the tithe of the gospel.
The New Testament did not get rid of tithe and offering. And the ministers of the gospel are in like manner to receive their living, their payment, from the tithe given to the Church.
And notice the key wording here “Even so did the Lord ordain that they that proclaim the gospel should live of the gospel”.

 

[LittleFaith]

(Genesis 28:18–22)
10% is set as the standard prior to the levitical priesthood, and prior to any temple being built. It was set as the standard at the first stone that Jacob had laid down as a pillar to be God’s house.


(1 Corinthians 9:13–14)
Just as the ministers, the levitical priests, in the Old Testament lived off of the temple and the tithe given, in like manner the ministers of the gospel in the New Testament are to live off of the tithe of the gospel.
The New Testament did not get rid of tithe and offering. And the ministers of the gospel are in like manner to receive their living, their payment, from the tithe given to the Church.
And notice the key wording here “Even so did the Lord ordain that they that proclaim the gospel should live of the gospel”.

How do you deduce a universal principle from Genesis 28?

 

[iainduguid]

(Genesis 28:18–22)
10% is set as the standard prior to the levitical priesthood, and prior to any temple being built. It was set as the standard at the first stone that Jacob had laid down as a pillar to be God’s house.


(1 Corinthians 9:13–14)
Just as the ministers, the levitical priests, in the Old Testament lived off of the temple and the tithe given, in like manner the ministers of the gospel in the New Testament are to live off of the tithe of the gospel.
The New Testament did not get rid of tithe and offering. And the ministers of the gospel are in like manner to receive their living, their payment, from the tithe given to the Church.
And notice the key wording here “Even so did the Lord ordain that they that proclaim the gospel should live of the gospel”.

Hi Kenan,
The problems with your argument are multiple.
1) Jacob cannot have been obligated to give 10% of his income prior to this, or his vow is merely a promise to keep God's law. To whom would he have given it prior to the establishment of the Levitical priesthood?
2) The Levitical priesthood only received 1% (a tithe of a tithe); the remainder went to the Levites more broadly. Not to mention the challenging questions about whether the tithe in Numbers and Deuteronomy are the same tithe or two separate tithes, which they were interpreted as during some periods of Jewish history. And the fact that temple tax is a quite separate obligation in the OT.
3) The Sinai tithe is always and only on agricultural produce (animal and vegetable). So if you want to insist that this tithe is still binding, then we would have had to contribute significantly in the days when we were breeding Cavalier King Charles spaniels, but now our tithe would consist of a handful of raspberries and cherries. This is because the Sinai tithe is distinctly a response to the gift of the Promised Land: since the Lord owns the land he asks a very modest ground-rent from his people. You can make general equity applications from that, but it is clear that tithing is not moral law.
4) When Paul tells us that ministers are to be supported by the people to whom they preach, he does not appeal to the tithe to make his case (though I think he could have); instead, he appeals to another civil law "You shall not muzzle the ox that grinds the grain". This image paints a very realistic picture of how pastoral ministry often feels (going round and round in circles doing the same thing week after week), but is a missed opportunity if Paul wanted to teach the continuing demand to tithe.

Again, if you want to explore the Biblical basis for my arguments, I recommend my e-book. It gives a much fuller account, including the important general equity arguments that I think can be legitimately drawn from the levitical tithe. A solid Biblical foundation protects everyone against tyranny and antinomianism, as well as false expectations of a "guaranteed" blessing of financial return on the tithe or curse of financial diminishment for failure to meet this demand (the common misapplication of Malachi 3).

 

[LittleFaith]

3) The Sinai tithe is always and only on agricultural produce (animal and vegetable). So if you want to insist that this tithe is still binding, then we would have had to contribute significantly in the days when we were breeding Cavalier King Charles spaniels, but now our tithe would consist of a handful of raspberries and cherries. This is because the Sinai tithe is distinctly a response to the gift of the Promised Land: since the Lord owns the land he asks a very modest ground-rent from his people. You can make general equity applications from that, but it is clear that tithing is not moral law.

@iainduguid Does your ebook elaborate on this one at greater length? In a premodern context without fiat currency as we know it, produce WAS the currency of the time.

 

[iainduguid]

@iainduguid Does your ebook elaborate on this one at greater length? In a premodern context without fiat currency as we know it, produce WAS the currency of the time.

Deuteronomy 14:25 presupposes the ability to turn the tithe into cash (keseph; probably silver rather than coins, which are a later invention). But my point is that the tithe is specifically a tithe of the land (cf Deut 14:22). Presumably there were other income sources (carpentry, weaving, pottery, manufacturing bricks, etc), but these are not included in the Levitical tithe requirements. Now probably in those days most people had some land that they worked and other occupations were more like side gigs (though that would have changed as the OT went on),

By the way, I've yet to see anyone who argues that the tithe is a binding, moral law explain what it means for us to consume our own tithe (including alcoholic beverages!) with our families in the presence of the Lord (Deut 14:22-26)!

 

[LittleFaith]

Thank you Professor. This is helpful.

 

[Brian Withnell]

If there is no standard, then it becomes subject to tyranny.

The pastor may tyrannically demand more than what God has commanded and cause the congregation to become impoverished.

Or the congregation may become the tyrants themselves by giving less than the standard, and then the pastor and his family become impoverished.

So I think it’s good for everyone to be clear on what that standard is, for it means we want to honour God’s way as the only way of doing things.

Tithing and free offerings are separate.
Tithing is 10%.
Free offerings are over and above tithing, and you are free to decide on the amount. And the amount can vary each time you give it.

First, your view of Church government ... what reformed confession is it from? In Presbyterian denominations, it is not the pastor that rules the church ... I've only been a member of a PCA and OPC church, so I have a little more knowledge there, but the session rules the church. The pastor does not demand anything outside of what God commands, and if he did, he'd probably be admonished by the session. I'll let our Reformed Baptists advise how they would deal with a pastor going beyond the word of God.

And if that were not enough, the pastor does not control the budget ... the session does.

Second, the congregation is duty bound to pay a salary to the pastor as outlined in his call to the church. And it would be a very sad day if a congregation violated their vows they take at the ordination/installation of a pastor.

If you think setting a standard could prevent tyranny, then you are not thinking very well. If people are motivated by serving God, they are not going to do what God explicitly doesn't want. I'd also ask you to contemplate this: are you so unsure of your Christian brothers and sisters that you would think they would not make sure that the pastor is well cared for or, as pastor, he would not be lovingly tending his flock? Subject to tyranny ... that is so far off from what is good I'd never want to even consider that thought.

Philippians 4:8 (NIV84)
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

 

[therussellhome]

Maybe as an initial set of training wheels. But it's the difference between law and grace. The law asks "What's the amount I am duty bound to give?" Paul says, "How much am I able to give in response to the love I have received?" You can't really get from the first question to the second; they are entirely different in kind.

Personally, I think if we are going to insist on tithing, we should also insist of the law of first dough (Num 15:18-21): whenever anyone in my congregation makes a loaf of bread (or a batch of brownies), the first piece must be given to the pastor.

For a fuller explanation of the tithe laws, and their relation to Christian giving (including general equity application), there's a handy little book here:

Amazon.com

Thank you for that handy little book and your thoughts here. The discussion is particularly timely for me as I will be teaching Money Management at my daughter's American Heritage Girls troop this spring.

I like you're perspective of 10% as a helpful set of "training wheels". It certainly helped me as a new wage earner to not give in to my carnal nature and approach giving as an after though or begrudgingly.

Speaking of books, growing up the book that influenced my approach to giving was R. G. LeTourneau's "Mover of Men and Mountains".

 

[DanSSwing]

I think telling people what you tithe is gross.

I don't believe anyone here is doing it for the purpose of bragging but rather trying to provide their personal thought processes on the subject in order to help another brother who seeks to be faithful.