Unity or Union

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PuritanCovenanter

The Joyful Curmudgeon
Staff member
*Lovingly climbing up on soapbox*

When the RPCNA and OPC were considering some options of uniting into one body I wondered if Union was beneficial. Union and Unity are two different things. Union implies being of the same substance or essence. Unity implies two different substances going and working together. Men and women marry and have a Union. Two brothers can not have this and walk in unity. Someone was in this merger was going to have to compromise and that did not seem to be a necessary evil if Unity was good.

The OPC is not EP and the RPCNA is. The OPC uses instruments and the RPCNA doesn't. Each opperate on different principles and understanding. To merge was going to violate the conscience of many. This was not a good thing.

Since they had a lot in common, to walk in close unity was sufficient In my humble opinion. Our true union is in Christ. But on this side of heaven we still differ and are complicated. I believe Romans 14 is very applicable to this.

In light of Romans 14 we need to Obey our Father and keep the bonds of Love even though we don't have a complete congregational Union. Brothers are two walk in Unity.


Quote:

(Rom 14:1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

(Rom 14:2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

(Rom 14:3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

(Rom 14:4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

(Rom 14:5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

(Rom 14:6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

(Rom 14:7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

(Rom 14:8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

(Rom 14:9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

(Rom 14:10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

(Rom 14:11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

(Rom 14:12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

(Rom 14:13) Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

(Rom 14:14) I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

(Rom 14:15) But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

(Rom 14:16) Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

(Rom 14:17) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

(Rom 14:18) For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

(Rom 14:19) Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

(Rom 14:20) For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

(Rom 14:21) It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

(Rom 14:22) Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

(Rom 14:23) And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Let me also add a qualifier here. I believe that judge in this context means to condemn. We need to be discerning.


I support the differences in denominations as long as they are orthodox. I have seen Baptists be schismatic. I have seen Presbyterians be schismatic. But we all need to understand we are obligated to act in accordance with Romans chapter 14. If we belong to the Head, Christ Jesus, we are required to express or faith by loving each other because we are sons and daughters of the King. We will be held accountable for how we receive each other and treat each other in light of His will. We are in Him and accountable to Him alone.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant...


*Loving climbing down off of soapbox*

[Edited on 10-17-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
I would love for them to unite. I am in an OPC and we have several EP members. I just don't understand for the life of me why people would strive so hard just to keep hold of man-made hymns in the church. *notice I didn't say uninspired Randy :) *

Everyone would agree I think that the psalms are superior to hymns. Yet we will have at my church services often maybe one out of 6 songs is a psalm and of the 5 or so others 1-2 are Wesleyian. It just boggles the mind.
whatthe.gif
 
Originally posted by Augusta
I would love for them to unite. I am in an OPC and we have several EP members. I just don't understand for the life of me why people would strive so hard just to keep hold of man-made hymns in the church. *notice I didn't say uninspired Randy :) *

Everyone would agree I think that the psalms are superior to hymns. Yet we will have at my church services often maybe one out of 6 songs is a psalm and of the 5 or so others 1-2 are Wesleyian. It just boggles the mind.
whatthe.gif

If you consider the singing of biblically inspired Hymns as wrong you had probably only pray the prayers that are recorded in scripture also. You had probably only read the sermons that are in scripture also. They are the purest. The Father seeks those who will worship in spirit and truth. Either way we ought to be convinced in our hearts and not sin against that. We ought to not condemn those who don't agree with us either on this issue. Remember Romans 14. What ever we do it out be done in Christ's Spirit. Love will be the Flower of such beauty.

[Edited on 10-17-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
My point is not to condemn either way. My point is even if you are not EP you have to admit that the psalms of scripture are superior to man-made hymns. Why then do churches like mine sing far far fewer psalms AND sing the Wesleyian hymns in our song book more often?? How did it get this way? I think it was partly due to trying to liven up the "solemn assembly."
 
Originally posted by Augusta
I would love for them to unite. I am in an OPC and we have several EP members. I just don't understand for the life of me why people would strive so hard just to keep hold of man-made hymns in the church. *notice I didn't say uninspired Randy :) *

Everyone would agree I think that the psalms are superior to hymns. Yet we will have at my church services often maybe one out of 6 songs is a psalm and of the 5 or so others 1-2 are Wesleyian. It just boggles the mind.
whatthe.gif

I can't understand for the life of me why people would deny the unity of Christ's Church (per John 17) over a point of doctrine that divides 0.0005% of the Church.
 
Originally posted by Augusta
I would love for them to unite. I am in an OPC and we have several EP members. I just don't understand for the life of me why people would strive so hard just to keep hold of man-made hymns in the church . . .
amen.gif
I cannot rightly figure this out either.

Everyone would agree I think that the psalms are superior to hymns.
superior in the same sense that the Bible text infinitely supersedes the best preaching by even the most sanctified men of God.

Yet we will have at my church services often maybe one out of 6 songs is a psalm and of the 5 or so others 1-2 are Wesleyian. It just boggles the mind.
It simply boggles my mind too as I cannot rightly see how the Wesleyian (Arminians that they were) stuff belongs in Reformed Churches that are founded upon the doctrines of Sovereign Grace!
 
I never denied the unity of Christ's church? How could anyone possibly deny the unity of Christ's church when we can never affect what is not within our power.

We are talking about a church practice that is in our confessions that used to be the norm and now isn't. When we are assembled and worshipping in a temple not made with hands why do we take in man-made praise that is trying to copy the perfect?? Why do we bring corrupt sacrifice to God's altar instead of the perfect and spotless?
 
You guys have already violated what I was trying to post. This has become a fight for EP. I am not convinced singing one of the 150 are better than singing anything else that is orthodox and scripture. We can hash this out again but this is not an EP thread. It is a thread to call you all to be at Unity with us who are not EP. Our Conscience is bound by scripture also. I believe there are Hymns and scripture songs outside of the book of Psalms that God is very pleased to hear us worship him with. I love singing the Name that is above Every Name with the word Christ attached to it. I love to sing about the Cross with which He died for me on. I love to boast and sing about the Cross of Jesus Christ. It is a New Song He placed in my heart. And I will worship him with such because I believe He is pleased that it gives me a heart of thanksgiving toward Himself.

Alas! and did my Savior bleed
And did my Sovereign die?
Would He devote that sacred head
For such a worm as I?

Was it for crimes that I had done
He groaned upon the tree?
Amazing pity! grace unknown!
And love beyond degree

Well might the sun in darkness hide
And shut his glories in,
When Christ, the mighty Maker died,
For man the creature´s sin.

Thus might I hide my blushing face
While His dear cross appears,
Dissolve my heart in thankfulness,
And melt my eyes to tears.

But drops of grief can ne´er repay
The debt of love I owe:
Here, Lord, I give my self away
´Tis all that I can do.

But drops of grief can ne´er repay
The debt of love I owe:
Here, Lord, I give my self away
´Tis all that I can do.

When I sing this in worship, I am convinced God is pleased.

If you are convinced that God is not worshipped and pleased by singing this in worship to Him than don't do it. But don't think you are going to be more acceptable in His sight because you don't and you are only singing one of the 150. You may find out that the poor publican in the back row walks away more justified than you do when he has sung an HYMN such as this one in his heart, than the whole congregation who is singing one of 150.

Please be less combative and accept us who don't hold to your position. We are not heretical or unorthodox.

Joshua... that song is a spiritual song which we are commanded to sing. You can't tell me it isn't.

[Edited on 10-18-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
Originally posted by joshua
Well, Randy, Brother, I'm sorry for violating it. Such was not my intention. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread. I just wanted to respond to the quoted assertion you made. Forgive me. I shall bow out. Godspeed.

Joshua, I do believe the scripture tells us to sing these songs also in the same commanding scripture that you claim it doesn't. So we are at a stale mate.

[Edited on 10-18-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
Randy, you may find this interesting, there are a few EP churches in the OPC. Granted they are a small small minority. But they do exist. Stuff like that is left up to the congregaiton. And they can't be condemned really since it is the Confessional position. I personally think this topic should not be an obstacle to union.
 
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
You guys have already violated what I was trying to post. This has become a fight for EP.

Randy,

This is no violation. You have your answer as to why unity is impossible in the modern church. All one has to do is look at the plethora of Presbyterian denomination to see that this is the case. There are numerous "denominations" that have less congregations (some with less communicant members) than the number of Presbyterian denominations themselves. This is NOT limited to the issue of EP, for there are literally dozens of Presbyterian, Westminster Confession adhering denominations that are all EP, yet are not united because of some other small point of doctrine. You name it, there is a doctrine that is "essential" enough to divide over.
 
Originally posted by puritansailor
Randy, you may find this interesting, there are a few EP churches in the OPC. Granted they are a small small minority. But they do exist. Stuff like that is left up to the congregaiton. And they can't be condemned really since it is the Confessional position. I personally think this topic should not be an obstacle to union.

That is cool. If I were in an EP congregation I wouldn't raise a hair about it either. In fact I have been a member of an EP Church. I am just wishing that the dogmatism of such wasn't so prevelant. I wish we could all edify each other in our particular convictions.

I am not RPCNA but if I see someone who would be a gift to that part of the body I am going to do all I can in Christ to see that part of the body edified by that individual. I will do my best to help them to become what God wants them to be.

I have been walking with God for 24 years now. I have discipled guys who are in ministers in various denominations. They have discipled guys who are in various denominations. In all this time I have grown to understand that I am not suppose to replicate me. Can you imagine a bunch of me running around. I am suppose to help others form into the image of Christ which happens very differently for each person. Forming into this image is different for everyone else because we all have different temperments, sinful habits, family backgrounds to grow up and out of. The starting mold is different for everyone. Non of us are good lumps of clay. Non of us are good soil for seed. Some need plowing more than others. And don't get me started on clicks in the church. I fit in just about everywhere, but I have seen these tear apart people.

What I am trying to say is that Romans 14 should apply to all of us no matter where we are. We should strive to be loving and find a church home that we can be challenged in and grow in without violating our consciences. It is okay to give reasons for the Hope we have and for what we believe but to be combative and superior in our own minds is wrong. God accepts worship when the heart is contrite and humble.
He accepts it when we cry out abba Father in spirit and truth. That is one thing we all have in common. We can call upon our Triune God with simplistic cries as from a child. And he loves it when we cry to Him. What a cool God we serve.
 
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