Still having a hard time to get arround bible texts that speak of justification according to works. Were the reformers right that the law demands perfection? Paul in Romans 2 does not seem hypotetical when he says that there are in fact gentiles who are doers of the Law (makes me think of cornelius). That doers of the Law will be justified seems in perfect line with bible texts that speak of the final judgment according to works. How does one know that he has done the law enough and have enough works. All I have when I read the bible, and verses like: they who have done good, and who have been this and that etc. all seem to point me to the fact that it is not faith alone. I guess I am becoming kinda tiring for some people, but I am really close to stop caring anymore :S. I read the testimony of Chris Rosebrough, and it sounds like he had the same struggle as I have. Lutheran theology sounds freeing when it speaks of Law and Gospel, yet I can't help but noticing that such interpretations seem kinda forced on texts that are clear of themselves. I find plenty of examples of people who are not perfect (in the sense that they try to obey Gods law as much as possible) who are being rendered as doers of the Law (David, Zacharia, Elizabeth, etc.)Help plz.
doers of the law will be justified
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Rom
Puritan Board Junior
You are indeed justified by works. It is impossible to be reconciled to God without a perfect record of obedience. This is in fact what the Bible teaches.
It is also impossible for someone born of ordinary generation from Adam to be reconciled to God in such a way, since all have sinned.
What then?
You must have Christ's record of perfect obedience imputed to you, received by faith alone. You will have the alien righteousness of Christ, if you are found in Him. See what the Bible says here about the righteousness of Christ given to us.
2 Cor 5:21 - For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
1 Cor 1:30 - But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
See, Christ becomes our righteousness. As Machen famously said as he died, "I am so thankful for the active obedience of Christ, no hope without it". This is something that many Protestants have forgotten since the time of the Reformation, but that the Reformed have remembered. It is not just the atonement that is Christ's work, it is also His active obedience so that our unrighteous record becomes His, but His perfect righteousness can become ours.
It is Jesus' record that will be accepted on your behalf before God. Not your own, which is imperfect and stained throughout with sin.
Because, outside of Jesus, this is what the law does:
Romans 3:19-20
19*Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20*Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Those who are regenerate however, will desire to follow God's law - though imperfectly at all times (see: Romans 7). The heart of faith desires to do good deeds. It is a dead "faith" that does not desire to do good works. See the promise in Ezekiel of what regeneration and having the Spirit of God within you will result in, yet note that it comes after you have been cleansed by God. One cannot get this backwards, and do the law so that God gives you His Spirit. Therefore, one becomes a doer of the law after regeneration, and justification.
Ezk 36:
25*Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26*I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27*I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
But it is never work (doing the law) that will justify you before God. Christ's righteousness imputed to you is required to justify you, which you receive by faith.
Westminster Shorter Catechism Q.33 (What is Justification?):
Justification is an act of God’ s free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins, (Rom. 3:24–25, Rom. 4:6–8) and accepteth us as righteous in his sight, (2 Cor. 5:19,21) only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, (Rom. 5:17–19) and received by faith alone. (Gal. 2:16, Phil. 3:9)
I hope this proves to be useful to you brother. Do not be afraid of questions, do not get tired of them. There are good answers to the questions you pose. Sometimes it is also useful to probe the question from a different perspective, and ask, "What if I need to be righteous by following the law?" What then? Work out those conclusions - and like Luther, you will run straight into the arms of Christ, seeking His righteousness, after you have found deep despair in your inability to keep the law.
It is also impossible for someone born of ordinary generation from Adam to be reconciled to God in such a way, since all have sinned.
What then?
You must have Christ's record of perfect obedience imputed to you, received by faith alone. You will have the alien righteousness of Christ, if you are found in Him. See what the Bible says here about the righteousness of Christ given to us.
2 Cor 5:21 - For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
1 Cor 1:30 - But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
See, Christ becomes our righteousness. As Machen famously said as he died, "I am so thankful for the active obedience of Christ, no hope without it". This is something that many Protestants have forgotten since the time of the Reformation, but that the Reformed have remembered. It is not just the atonement that is Christ's work, it is also His active obedience so that our unrighteous record becomes His, but His perfect righteousness can become ours.
It is Jesus' record that will be accepted on your behalf before God. Not your own, which is imperfect and stained throughout with sin.
Because, outside of Jesus, this is what the law does:
Romans 3:19-20
19*Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20*Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Those who are regenerate however, will desire to follow God's law - though imperfectly at all times (see: Romans 7). The heart of faith desires to do good deeds. It is a dead "faith" that does not desire to do good works. See the promise in Ezekiel of what regeneration and having the Spirit of God within you will result in, yet note that it comes after you have been cleansed by God. One cannot get this backwards, and do the law so that God gives you His Spirit. Therefore, one becomes a doer of the law after regeneration, and justification.
Ezk 36:
25*Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26*I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27*I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
But it is never work (doing the law) that will justify you before God. Christ's righteousness imputed to you is required to justify you, which you receive by faith.
Westminster Shorter Catechism Q.33 (What is Justification?):
Justification is an act of God’ s free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins, (Rom. 3:24–25, Rom. 4:6–8) and accepteth us as righteous in his sight, (2 Cor. 5:19,21) only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, (Rom. 5:17–19) and received by faith alone. (Gal. 2:16, Phil. 3:9)
I hope this proves to be useful to you brother. Do not be afraid of questions, do not get tired of them. There are good answers to the questions you pose. Sometimes it is also useful to probe the question from a different perspective, and ask, "What if I need to be righteous by following the law?" What then? Work out those conclusions - and like Luther, you will run straight into the arms of Christ, seeking His righteousness, after you have found deep despair in your inability to keep the law.
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Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
Well stated, Rom! Ian, we will stand before God and that, under the absolute standard of pure perfection. No human has any chance whatsoever of being called "just" under those circumstances.....on his own. For the Christian, however, he/she stands cloaked in the perfect righteousness of the Savior. What the first Adam failed to do in keeping every jot and tittle of the holy Law of God, the second Adam did in all perfection. That is the perfection; the only perfection in which one could stand.
As for contradictions in Scripture, I would only say a better and correct way to state your frustration is there is a tough issue I can't seem to resolve. There is no contradiction in Scripture, only serious flaws with it's readers, including me
Abeard
Puritan Board Freshman
When we talk about obedience it always comes down to the heart. When gentiles obey the Law are they doing it for the love of God?
My understanding of justification by works is that our works are our witness to our new birth. Some may have an abundance of good works and some may have few.
My understanding of justification by works is that our works are our witness to our new birth. Some may have an abundance of good works and some may have few.
Rom
Puritan Board Junior
If you ever want to chat 1:1, I know many pastors or elders on this board would be willing to spend time with you. If you ever wanted to chat with me, PM me - I am available via Skype if you find the forum format too confining.
Otherwise, please just list out the verses / passages you are having issues with - and then we can go from there. There are many good wise folks on the PuritanBoard who would love to help you. The great thing about this forum is that your struggles may be the same as someone else on the internet who may not feel like they can ask this question. But they get to benefit from your questions, and the responses given here.
Another point to consider. As Calvinists, the Reformed have seen the eternal decree of God as not only involving justification, but also good works:
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Otherwise, please just list out the verses / passages you are having issues with - and then we can go from there. There are many good wise folks on the PuritanBoard who would love to help you. The great thing about this forum is that your struggles may be the same as someone else on the internet who may not feel like they can ask this question. But they get to benefit from your questions, and the responses given here.
Another point to consider. As Calvinists, the Reformed have seen the eternal decree of God as not only involving justification, but also good works:
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
If Romans is troubling, my quick suggestion is to take it as a whole. It's a longish letter, and very rich, so there's a real pressure to dig into the details. That's clearly a good thing to do; but sometimes people get so far into the details of a text that it is possible to forget the broader context of the epistle as a whole. Thus Romans 2:5-16 taken in isolation might seem to point to the possibility of being justified by works; but how does that fit with Romans 3 and Romans 11, about the universality of sin? How does it fit with Romans 4 and 5, about justification by faith through the work of Christ? How does it fit with Romans 6 and 7 about being free from the law? How does it fit in with Romans 10 about submitting to the righteousness of God, Christ being the end of the law, and salvation coming through calling on the name of the Lord?
There is a reason Paul didn't end his letter in chapter 2. It is not obscuring the meaning of a clear text to insist that it be read as part of the larger argument. In my own reading and wondering, I have noticed that many interpretations of Paul, including many of my own thoughts, wind up being unsustainable when I read a text against its larger background.
There is a reason Paul didn't end his letter in chapter 2. It is not obscuring the meaning of a clear text to insist that it be read as part of the larger argument. In my own reading and wondering, I have noticed that many interpretations of Paul, including many of my own thoughts, wind up being unsustainable when I read a text against its larger background.
I recently took time on a Sunday morning to preach an evangelistic message (at least, that was the intent), the text for which was Rom.2:1-13. The final v13 contains the sobering statement: that [only] the doers of the law will be justified. Hearers [only] cannot be justified.
Now the purpose of Rom.1:18-3:20 is to ensure that not one living soul escapes from the knowledge that he is damned for his failure to obey God. The first part of Rom.2 is directed against the (Gentile) moralist. He thinks he is not the subject of Paul's diatribe against the wickedness of the generality of the Gentiles, found in ch.1. Paul will not allow the "judge" of others (v1) to escape condemnation himself.
In my sermon, I used the example of the man who travels in his vehicle through a whole town from end to end; being forced to stop at nine out of ten stoplights. He doesn't catch a single break. And with one intersection and traffic control to negotiate, he again(!) sees that he will not have permission to continue without a long pause. So, he accelerates and goes through the intersection in defiance of the "halt" signal. The enforcement official sees the violation, and commands a stop to the violator, thus to demerit his infraction of the law.
What sort of response does the law have to the excuse, "I stopped at 90% of the lights! Why doesn't that count for something?"
"Sorry, pal. The law doesn't grant you credit for doing one's obligation, so that on occasion when you do as you please, you get a freebee."
He has become a mere "hearer" of the law, rather than a doer. And now he must pay the price for his (one) failure to be a doer, always.
In point of fact, no one is even close to being as good as all that. We've only stopped at the light when it was convenient, we've pushed the limits whenever we thought it would be to our advantage, and we've resented every light--the one's we've stopped for, and the many that we've run. When has our obedience even once measured up? Or do some think God sees in us "congruent merit" (the Romanist doctrine), by which our meager and sin-tainted good-deeds are treated as though they were "good enough," assuming they advance to a different threshold, a lowered standard? Actually, Rome's estimate of human righteousness is the real "legal fiction."
We should at v13 come to the horrifying realization that this truism is a devastating and comprehensive condemnation. There is a "hypothetical" quality to it; however, the focus of what Paul says is: 1st) on the fact that every reader falls into the "hearer only" category; along with 2nd) a bit of wistful wondering whether there could be anyone of the second kind, an obedient man.
My evangelistic point was that everyone desperately needs the "doing" of the law that he has failed to accomplish; and therefore God, in order to save men, has provided the perfect "law-doing" of another, to be credited to them who believe they need it, and for whom nothing else will do. And this provision is Christ. In Christ, the mere hearers are reckoned to be doers; they are found in him, not having a righteousness that is their own, which is from the law, but that righteousness that is through faith in Christ (Php.3:9; cf. Rom.3:28; 10:3-4).
Now the purpose of Rom.1:18-3:20 is to ensure that not one living soul escapes from the knowledge that he is damned for his failure to obey God. The first part of Rom.2 is directed against the (Gentile) moralist. He thinks he is not the subject of Paul's diatribe against the wickedness of the generality of the Gentiles, found in ch.1. Paul will not allow the "judge" of others (v1) to escape condemnation himself.
In my sermon, I used the example of the man who travels in his vehicle through a whole town from end to end; being forced to stop at nine out of ten stoplights. He doesn't catch a single break. And with one intersection and traffic control to negotiate, he again(!) sees that he will not have permission to continue without a long pause. So, he accelerates and goes through the intersection in defiance of the "halt" signal. The enforcement official sees the violation, and commands a stop to the violator, thus to demerit his infraction of the law.
What sort of response does the law have to the excuse, "I stopped at 90% of the lights! Why doesn't that count for something?"
"Sorry, pal. The law doesn't grant you credit for doing one's obligation, so that on occasion when you do as you please, you get a freebee."
He has become a mere "hearer" of the law, rather than a doer. And now he must pay the price for his (one) failure to be a doer, always.
In point of fact, no one is even close to being as good as all that. We've only stopped at the light when it was convenient, we've pushed the limits whenever we thought it would be to our advantage, and we've resented every light--the one's we've stopped for, and the many that we've run. When has our obedience even once measured up? Or do some think God sees in us "congruent merit" (the Romanist doctrine), by which our meager and sin-tainted good-deeds are treated as though they were "good enough," assuming they advance to a different threshold, a lowered standard? Actually, Rome's estimate of human righteousness is the real "legal fiction."
We should at v13 come to the horrifying realization that this truism is a devastating and comprehensive condemnation. There is a "hypothetical" quality to it; however, the focus of what Paul says is: 1st) on the fact that every reader falls into the "hearer only" category; along with 2nd) a bit of wistful wondering whether there could be anyone of the second kind, an obedient man.
My evangelistic point was that everyone desperately needs the "doing" of the law that he has failed to accomplish; and therefore God, in order to save men, has provided the perfect "law-doing" of another, to be credited to them who believe they need it, and for whom nothing else will do. And this provision is Christ. In Christ, the mere hearers are reckoned to be doers; they are found in him, not having a righteousness that is their own, which is from the law, but that righteousness that is through faith in Christ (Php.3:9; cf. Rom.3:28; 10:3-4).
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Be careful to say "apparent" contradictions- Scripture does not contradict itself. That is, the Holy Spirit, speaking in Scripture is not contradictory. You may not understand it, or be willing to accept its truth, but Scripture is not inconsistent.
Also, you may find helpful the Scripture proofs for Westminster Chapter XIX, an excellent study of the systematic theology of justification by faith in Christ's Righteousness alone and the third use of the law which sweetly complies with it.
The word of God is vast. What might seem an ample understanding can become insufficient as we grow in our understanding of the scripture as a whole. Keep reading, studying, and asking the Spirit to illuminate it for you. As long as you are trying to interpret scripture with scripture and are humbly dependent on God to teach you, don't worry about the questions it might raise and whether or not you've had it "right" in the past.
Gesetveemet
Puritan Board Sophomore
I understand that it is God who gives us faith but is the wording "we are saved by faith" correct? Shouldn't there be a distinction of perhaps by grace through faith?
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Yes,
It's better to say we are saved by grace, through faith (in Christ's righteousness) alone.
Faith is the vehicle; it is Christ's actual righteousness, his perfect life and perfect death that alone do save us and pay the penalty for our sin.
And God gives us even the saving faith to believe that, and rest in it.
In a sense, we must be very careful to be clear, but in a sense, we are saved by works....
Christ's works alone which are, alone, sufficient to satisfy God's holy standard and His sacrifice to pay the penalty for our sin.
There is no contradiction in that, and every Christian must know this clearly.
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Okay, so there are no contradictions, then perhaps I see contradictions between the reformed creeds and the Bible. Example: Acts chapter 10 clearly states that Cornelius was acceptable to God because he did what was right (he worked righteousness). Now the text does not indicate that Cornelius was sinless and other parts of Scripture say that all men are sinners. So I conclude that he did not fullfill the law perfectly, but he did give to the poor etc. (love fullfills the law). As I see it, the text clearly teaches that Cornelius was right with God because of his behaviour. Now, what does Cornelius have that I don't have? All I see in Scripture are these super saints. So I start doubting, either the creeds are wrong, or many people are truly not born again because they aren't super saints.
Ian, grave doubts and deep issues are usually better addressed in person than online. Have you discussed these matters with your pastor or elders?
As for Acts 10, it has to be read for what it is. Cornelius is a person of upright character, one who has come to believe in the OT scriptures, but has not gone the length of circumcision, etc. And he is a Gentile. Peter is sent to preach to him for at least two reasons. One is that Cornelius needs to know that Jesus of Nazareth is the fulfilment of the OT he has been drawn to. The other is that Peter needs to know that the gospel is for all people, not just for the Jews.
The point, then, is not that Cornelius earned God's favor by what he did. The descriptions of vv.2,35 are not about how people are reconciled to God: that is found in v.43 and in 11:18, the reflection upon what happened there.
Exposure to the OT Scriptures and hearing something about Jesus was used to stir Cornelius up to seriousness in seeking God. Peter was sent in answer to that prayer. It is still true that those who seek will find, and the example of Cornelius could be inexactly paralleled by instances where someone hears something of the gospel and prays for someone to be sent to explain things more fully.
Cornelius was not justified by obeying the law; his sins were remitted through Christ.
As for Acts 10, it has to be read for what it is. Cornelius is a person of upright character, one who has come to believe in the OT scriptures, but has not gone the length of circumcision, etc. And he is a Gentile. Peter is sent to preach to him for at least two reasons. One is that Cornelius needs to know that Jesus of Nazareth is the fulfilment of the OT he has been drawn to. The other is that Peter needs to know that the gospel is for all people, not just for the Jews.
The point, then, is not that Cornelius earned God's favor by what he did. The descriptions of vv.2,35 are not about how people are reconciled to God: that is found in v.43 and in 11:18, the reflection upon what happened there.
Exposure to the OT Scriptures and hearing something about Jesus was used to stir Cornelius up to seriousness in seeking God. Peter was sent in answer to that prayer. It is still true that those who seek will find, and the example of Cornelius could be inexactly paralleled by instances where someone hears something of the gospel and prays for someone to be sent to explain things more fully.
Cornelius was not justified by obeying the law; his sins were remitted through Christ.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ian,
After reading Acts 10,
it does not say Cornelius was saved because of his "right" works. You are reading that in.
Your presupposition or conclusion is out of the context of both the chapter and the whole of Scripture. Remember, context is essential in understanding Bible passages. That's why a systematic theology like the Westminster Standards summarizes is so helpful.
It describes narrative here that Cornelius had a (good) reputation for seeking and obeying God, not didache (doctrine) that he (unique in the whole of Scripture by your presupposition) was saved by his own works.
He is commended for his good works, recognized for them as a visible outward pattern, but not saved by them.
Keep in mind the Scripture would tell us by principle that all have sinned (Romans 3:23). It does not say all except Cornelius....
Rom
Puritan Board Junior
The logic of the Apostle Paul is particularly helpful here in Galatians 3:21 - "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
If one can be righteous through their good deeds (such as you posit Cornelius might have been), then why Jesus Christ? What purpose does He serve? What purpose does His death, and resurrection serve then? I like the entire passage, some of it quoted below:
15*We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16*knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17*“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18*For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19*For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20*I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21*I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
If one can be righteous through their good deeds (such as you posit Cornelius might have been), then why Jesus Christ? What purpose does He serve? What purpose does His death, and resurrection serve then? I like the entire passage, some of it quoted below:
15*We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16*knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17*“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18*For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19*For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20*I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21*I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Then why Jesus Christ? Indeed, well thats what I don't understand. All the previous posts have not adressed the fact that Peter said to Cornelius that those who fear God and do good (do righteousness) are acceptable to God. So, the negative side of that is that those who do not fear God (and Paul says that no one fears God), and that those who do not do good (and Paul says that none do good), are not acceptable to God. Yet the Scripture says that Cornelius was told to get Peter to preach the Gospel to him and his Household so that they might be saved. So, why? What about the sinners who are not acceptable because they don't fear God and don't do good, is there partiality with God all along? Do such sinners have to reform their lives in order to be saved? And I know al lot of Christians, and I would like to include myself, who can hardly be called fearers of God and doers of good, yet they believe and try (myself included). So there must be some level, or some measure by which we must be able to conclude, this one REALLY believes, because he fears God enough and does enough good. This is what I see in a lot of radical lordship salvation camps where I used to come from. They just don't want you to be sure you are saved.
Someone asked a question if I have discussed this with my pastor and/or elders. I have, yet the answer is unsatisfying. "The bible teaches we are saved by grace through faith". Okay.. so how do I know I have true faith? Well, they say, you need to look at your works and your performance. Sanctification is the fruit of justification. Okay, soooo how do I know I have enough sanctification to conclude that my faith is real? Or what if I still have particular sins. Well, they say, then you might not truly believe.
Do you see where this is going? It's a never ending circle.
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a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
I'm not qualified to teach or debate these issues, just a very clear text and a reflection on my own experience:
'. . . he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.' Titus 3:5-7
In context it is very clear what kind of works were being done before the goodness of God appeared, and what we are to devote ourselves to after this free grace makes us heirs according to hope.
I have never once found it comforting to examine my works in a state of doubt. I go straight to Christ who promised that those who come to Him, He will in no wise, not for any reason, cast out. I must also pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten me and help me before I read my bible, or I tend to wrest it to my own frame of doubt and not to see and rest in Christ.
'. . . he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.' Titus 3:5-7
In context it is very clear what kind of works were being done before the goodness of God appeared, and what we are to devote ourselves to after this free grace makes us heirs according to hope.
I have never once found it comforting to examine my works in a state of doubt. I go straight to Christ who promised that those who come to Him, He will in no wise, not for any reason, cast out. I must also pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten me and help me before I read my bible, or I tend to wrest it to my own frame of doubt and not to see and rest in Christ.
Ian,
There are people--and even some pastors--who very foolishly advise their hearers to look to themselves and their performance to obtain a measure of assurance that they are "making it," that they are saved.
But this is damaging counsel. It is possible for practically anyone to take some encouragement from his deeds, and comfort himself that it looks to him like spiritual life and growth. And because anyone can do it, and there's no objective measure of the "quality" of the work, such a measure is unreliable and formally and practically useless.
Which one of these men is more assured of his place in the kingdom of heaven? Just based on the information above, there is NO POSSIBLE way to tell. They can't tell themselves, nor can others tell. These descriptions might even be the same man, ten years apart!
The way to assurance is to look away from yourself. Like Peter who obeyed the summons of Christ to walk on the waves with him, we are fine when we keep our eyes on Jesus, not on our own feet (natural ability) or on the winds and waves (earthly circumstances). Peter's confidence could NEVER be in his own act of walking. Each step further couldn't, shouldn't, wouldn't make him more confident in himself. Only looking to Jesus kept him upright.
Scripture tells us that believers really do grow in grace. The Spirit of Christ who dwells in his people is the Spirit of obedience (inverse Eph.2:2), the Spirit who cries out "Abba, Father," Gal.4:6. These are statements by God that believers should embrace. Children, who only see life stretching out interminably in front of them may think they will never grow up; they cannot tell from day to day that they have advanced at all. But their parents confidently tell them, "O, you certainly will grow up." And the children should believe them.
I just preached through 1Cor.8. One of the problems in Corinth was spiritual pride: the confidence folks had in their spiritual attainments in knowledge, deeds, and giftedness. Paul describes two parallel spiritual ideals of the Christian life, knowledge and love. Knowledge without love is puffed up, empty and vain. Love is knowledge in action. Without knowledge, love is useless activity without any direction. So each ideal is dependent on the other.
Paul points out, v2, that no one yet knows anything spiritually as he ought, not even the person who knows the most. So, it is impossible to gauge one's spirituality by testing one's knowledge; because if we always ought to be better knowers than we are, then we don't know "enough" to escape blame.
Well, what about the other ideal? What about love? Can I measure my spirituality--my knowledge of God--by how much love I show? After all, love is the working out of knowledge, the building up of good, of others... What does the Apostle say? Does v3 read, "If you love God (a little/a lot), then clearly you know God (a little/a lot)?"
No, v3 surprises the reader by subverting "my love" as an index to "my knowledge" of God, as an index to "my spirituality." A new believer who has very little knowledge may show forth his (new) love for God in ways that put the long-term believer, who may know much more, in the shade (for a variety of reasons). Rather, v3 reads, "If anyone [thinks he] loves God, [let him take comfort only in this:] that he is KNOWN BY God." Let that Christian remember this: that "we love him because he first loved us," 1Jn.4:19.
Do you think you love God? Good, but don't take comfort in such feelings or displays. Think only of how whatever love is there is purely the product of a prior divine act of love toward you.
How do you know you have faith? How do you know you are alive, bodily? Is it because you measure your breaths? Is it because you are constantly taking your pulse? Is it because you ran to the store this morning? What if you are a brain in a vat? Radical skepticism can undermine every confidence, if you give it free reign.
How do you know if you have faith? Do you believe the Word of God, or don't you? Do you know it, accept it as true, and rest in it? That's faith.
There are people--and even some pastors--who very foolishly advise their hearers to look to themselves and their performance to obtain a measure of assurance that they are "making it," that they are saved.
But this is damaging counsel. It is possible for practically anyone to take some encouragement from his deeds, and comfort himself that it looks to him like spiritual life and growth. And because anyone can do it, and there's no objective measure of the "quality" of the work, such a measure is unreliable and formally and practically useless.
-- Person One has lived as a Christian for, say, 20 years, and thinks he has quantified, objective measures of his spiritual "improvement" over that time. He is pretty sure he can tell that he is at least 51% better than he was. He's a very disciplined person, and tithes of his money and his time to charitable causes and to his church.
-- Person Two has lived as a Christian for, say, 30 years, and seriously wonders if he has made any measurable "progress" spiritually in all that time. His prayer life has gone up and down. He thinks he has more self-control in one area, but less in another. He loves his three children more, but his wife less. He's more aware of his sin than he's ever been.
-- Person Two has lived as a Christian for, say, 30 years, and seriously wonders if he has made any measurable "progress" spiritually in all that time. His prayer life has gone up and down. He thinks he has more self-control in one area, but less in another. He loves his three children more, but his wife less. He's more aware of his sin than he's ever been.
Which one of these men is more assured of his place in the kingdom of heaven? Just based on the information above, there is NO POSSIBLE way to tell. They can't tell themselves, nor can others tell. These descriptions might even be the same man, ten years apart!
The way to assurance is to look away from yourself. Like Peter who obeyed the summons of Christ to walk on the waves with him, we are fine when we keep our eyes on Jesus, not on our own feet (natural ability) or on the winds and waves (earthly circumstances). Peter's confidence could NEVER be in his own act of walking. Each step further couldn't, shouldn't, wouldn't make him more confident in himself. Only looking to Jesus kept him upright.
Scripture tells us that believers really do grow in grace. The Spirit of Christ who dwells in his people is the Spirit of obedience (inverse Eph.2:2), the Spirit who cries out "Abba, Father," Gal.4:6. These are statements by God that believers should embrace. Children, who only see life stretching out interminably in front of them may think they will never grow up; they cannot tell from day to day that they have advanced at all. But their parents confidently tell them, "O, you certainly will grow up." And the children should believe them.
I just preached through 1Cor.8. One of the problems in Corinth was spiritual pride: the confidence folks had in their spiritual attainments in knowledge, deeds, and giftedness. Paul describes two parallel spiritual ideals of the Christian life, knowledge and love. Knowledge without love is puffed up, empty and vain. Love is knowledge in action. Without knowledge, love is useless activity without any direction. So each ideal is dependent on the other.
Paul points out, v2, that no one yet knows anything spiritually as he ought, not even the person who knows the most. So, it is impossible to gauge one's spirituality by testing one's knowledge; because if we always ought to be better knowers than we are, then we don't know "enough" to escape blame.
Well, what about the other ideal? What about love? Can I measure my spirituality--my knowledge of God--by how much love I show? After all, love is the working out of knowledge, the building up of good, of others... What does the Apostle say? Does v3 read, "If you love God (a little/a lot), then clearly you know God (a little/a lot)?"
No, v3 surprises the reader by subverting "my love" as an index to "my knowledge" of God, as an index to "my spirituality." A new believer who has very little knowledge may show forth his (new) love for God in ways that put the long-term believer, who may know much more, in the shade (for a variety of reasons). Rather, v3 reads, "If anyone [thinks he] loves God, [let him take comfort only in this:] that he is KNOWN BY God." Let that Christian remember this: that "we love him because he first loved us," 1Jn.4:19.
Do you think you love God? Good, but don't take comfort in such feelings or displays. Think only of how whatever love is there is purely the product of a prior divine act of love toward you.
How do you know you have faith? How do you know you are alive, bodily? Is it because you measure your breaths? Is it because you are constantly taking your pulse? Is it because you ran to the store this morning? What if you are a brain in a vat? Radical skepticism can undermine every confidence, if you give it free reign.
How do you know if you have faith? Do you believe the Word of God, or don't you? Do you know it, accept it as true, and rest in it? That's faith.
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Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ian, my brother,
Your post has led me to earnest prayer for you. This is a very important issue and one you are clearly struggling greatly with. I would encourage you to take this to the Lord in prayer as well. Ask him to reveal his truth to you. Ask him to show you how salvation works. Ask him how you can find and rest in the assurance of eternal life.
You have come to a good place. You are grappling with the deep things of the center of the Christian faith and have come to a board where many people are well versed in these things and able to help you. Take a deep breath. Exhale. Sigh in relief. You have the Scriptures. You have many here to help you think through them. Don't become anxious or frantic or hopeless.
You seem to be troubled by two main issues: 1) How is one truly saved, and are works a part of that? and 2) How can one have assurance of one's salvation?
1)
Scripture makes it clear that salvation comes by faith alone, apart from works.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10
We are saved by faith. Not as a result of works. It is a free gift from God. Now, then in verse 10, it becomes clear that we were saved by God so that we then could walk in good works. But do not confuse the order. Dead in sins -> saved by grace -> called to walk in good works.
Another passage:
Philippians 3:4-9
Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.
Paul's righteousness from God did not come from the law. He considers any gain from the law as worthless. Paul's righteousness came from faith in Christ.
You then say, "But then what about this verse or that passage?" Good questions. Keep asking them. But in the meantime, hold fast to the simple and plain truths we see here in these passages. Salvation and eternal life come from Jesus' death in your place.
2) You then ask, "So how can I know that I am saved?"
Faith, when in other terms, can be called dependence. Are you depending upon the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in your place for the forgiveness of your sins? Are you depending solely on what Jesus did for you for eternal life? If you stood before God and he asked you, "Why should I let you into heaven?" would you reply, "Not because of any good in me, but because my Savior Jesus died on the cross, taking my sin and my punishment, and offered me forgiveness if I place my faith in him. And so I trusted in him. I believed in him and upon his actions and his works do I base my hope for eternal life." If so, then trouble yourself not with questions of, "How sanctified? What exactly should I be seeing?" Given where you are at right now, these are not helpful questions.
Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29 Take comfort in these truths Ian. If you believe these things then rest knowing you are saved.
And what comfort there is friend! I have hope for you that in the next few hours or perhaps days as you continue to bring your questions to this board that soon the simple truths of the gospel will wrap themselves around your heart as a blanket of joyful assurance. Imagine that Ian! You may soon find in yourself a deep peace about your eternal state that will never end. You may just be a few hours away from knowing resolutely that Jesus has claimed you as his, never to fear hell or damnation again. This is what he offers to each of us and what he is offering to you now. Trust in Jesus and his atonement, and then be free from the anxieties you are now plagued by! You will then be able to rest, knowing that you are eternally, totally safe from the wrath of God.
Your post has led me to earnest prayer for you. This is a very important issue and one you are clearly struggling greatly with. I would encourage you to take this to the Lord in prayer as well. Ask him to reveal his truth to you. Ask him to show you how salvation works. Ask him how you can find and rest in the assurance of eternal life.
You have come to a good place. You are grappling with the deep things of the center of the Christian faith and have come to a board where many people are well versed in these things and able to help you. Take a deep breath. Exhale. Sigh in relief. You have the Scriptures. You have many here to help you think through them. Don't become anxious or frantic or hopeless.
You seem to be troubled by two main issues: 1) How is one truly saved, and are works a part of that? and 2) How can one have assurance of one's salvation?
1)
Scripture makes it clear that salvation comes by faith alone, apart from works.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10
We are saved by faith. Not as a result of works. It is a free gift from God. Now, then in verse 10, it becomes clear that we were saved by God so that we then could walk in good works. But do not confuse the order. Dead in sins -> saved by grace -> called to walk in good works.
Another passage:
Philippians 3:4-9
Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.
Paul's righteousness from God did not come from the law. He considers any gain from the law as worthless. Paul's righteousness came from faith in Christ.
You then say, "But then what about this verse or that passage?" Good questions. Keep asking them. But in the meantime, hold fast to the simple and plain truths we see here in these passages. Salvation and eternal life come from Jesus' death in your place.
2) You then ask, "So how can I know that I am saved?"
Faith, when in other terms, can be called dependence. Are you depending upon the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in your place for the forgiveness of your sins? Are you depending solely on what Jesus did for you for eternal life? If you stood before God and he asked you, "Why should I let you into heaven?" would you reply, "Not because of any good in me, but because my Savior Jesus died on the cross, taking my sin and my punishment, and offered me forgiveness if I place my faith in him. And so I trusted in him. I believed in him and upon his actions and his works do I base my hope for eternal life." If so, then trouble yourself not with questions of, "How sanctified? What exactly should I be seeing?" Given where you are at right now, these are not helpful questions.
Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29 Take comfort in these truths Ian. If you believe these things then rest knowing you are saved.
And what comfort there is friend! I have hope for you that in the next few hours or perhaps days as you continue to bring your questions to this board that soon the simple truths of the gospel will wrap themselves around your heart as a blanket of joyful assurance. Imagine that Ian! You may soon find in yourself a deep peace about your eternal state that will never end. You may just be a few hours away from knowing resolutely that Jesus has claimed you as his, never to fear hell or damnation again. This is what he offers to each of us and what he is offering to you now. Trust in Jesus and his atonement, and then be free from the anxieties you are now plagued by! You will then be able to rest, knowing that you are eternally, totally safe from the wrath of God.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
When the Bible speaks about people like Noah being "perfect", and David being "a man after God's own heart", it is speaking about the sincere yet imperfect sanctification and good works that do not justify, but are accepted by God in Christ.
Only Christ's works justify the sinner by faith alone.
See e.g. John Ball on "The Covenant of Grace". I'll have some quotes from John Ball's treatise, later.
Only Christ's works justify the sinner by faith alone.
See e.g. John Ball on "The Covenant of Grace". I'll have some quotes from John Ball's treatise, later.
How do you know your sanctification and good works are sincere?
Indeed, well thats what I don't understand. All the previous posts have not adressed the fact that Peter said to Cornelius that those who fear God and do good (do righteousness) are acceptable to God.
Again,
you are reading your own conclusion based on your own presupposition in. The text, in context does not say that.
"Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."
In the preceding verses you see why Peter said this to and about Cornelius. He was known to do righteousness. The point that Peter is making I believe, is that allthough Cornelius is a gentile, he proves that gentiles can be accepted by God (and not just jews) if they fear Him en do what is right. I don't know how you go around that. Now I also read that Cornelius wasn't saved. So that clears some things up, but I spoke a roman catholic who used these verses to show that Cornelius needed forgiveness of past sins, but that his works are also important to keep him in the covenant with God. I believe this is also wat the New Perspective on Paul preachers teach.
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Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
If you're wrestling with assurance of faith, see the relevant threads on the PB.
You'll never be perfectly righteous in this life, so you can only look to Christ for justification.
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ian,
You are not understanding the posts. Are you reading them?
You are presupposing that a phrase (in the ESV) "acceptable go God" means that God saves sinners based on their own works. As has been pointed out, read the context of Acts 10, it does not mean what you presume there, let alone within the context of the whole of Scripture.
Doing some, many or most things "righteously" does NOT mean one is justified by them.
What is your definition of justification?
You seem to be presuming that a few works or works generally somehow override any and all sin one has committed. The Bible does not teach that.
Acts 10 does not teach that about Cornelius.
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