Timeframe of Completing MDiv

[zsmcd]

As I am still considering what to do about seminary - I was having the discussion with my pastor last week about how long it took him to complete his MDiv and how he felt that he would have better benefited from the degree had he taken more time to complete it.

His concern was that there was so much he was unable to read and research for his classes and papers, due to the amount of classes he was taking, and that he really sensed that taking another year or so to complete the degree would have been much more beneficial to his retaining and benefiting from all of the knowledge gained. He received his degree from Covenant Seminary in about four years, which sounds about average.

What are your thoughts/experiences?

It seems that, as true as this may be, there will, Lord willing, be plenty of time after seminary to dive deeper into some research that you may not have benefited from due to the time restraints of a traditional 14-16 week class.

 

[psycheives]

This is very true at Westminster Seminary California, known to be like drinking out of a firehose. Fellow students always recommend guys take at least 4 years to complete the MDIV. Those who do it in 3 years are not expected to remember much of what they read/skimmed or from the classes. They aren't able to question or consider what they are learning either. Part depends on what seminary you go to and how rigorous their MDIV is.

If you feel you are called to the pastorate, I recommend you go to a good seminary like Puritan Theological Seminary (PRTS), Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS), or some consider one of the Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) or Westminster Seminaries. However, keep in mind that many people spend ~$40,000 on a seminary degree they never use and could have learned waaay more just staying home and carefully reading our Confessions, Calvin's Institutes and Turretin. Even doing an MDIV in 4 years is very intense and you will forget much of what you learn and won't be able to read the books deeply.

This is a sample of a seminary's demands: WSC had a Winter class on Calvin's Institutes over 3 days. Students sat in class from 12:30-4:30PM. After class, students were expected to read according to this schedule: First day: Read ~200 pages of Richard Muller's Unaccomodated Calvin and 240 pages of the Institutes; 2nd day read Institutes pg 240-725; 3rd day read Institutes pages 725-1521. After finishing your reading, write a one-page paper each day to summarize what you had read in the Institutes. How many of us spending every second of the day could finish 500-800 pages of the Institutes plus a one-page paper after spending 4 hours in class?

 

[zsmcd]

This is very true at Westminster Seminary California, known to be like drinking out of a firehose. Fellow students always recommend guys take at least 4 years to complete the MDIV. Those who do it in 3 years are not expected to remember much of what they read/skimmed or from the classes. They aren't able to question or consider what they are learning either. Part depends on what seminary you go to and how rigorous their MDIV is.

If you feel you are called to the pastorate, I recommend you go to a good seminary like Puritan Theological Seminary (PRTS), Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS), or some consider one of the Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) or Westminster Seminaries. However, keep in mind that many people spend ~$40,000 on a seminary degree they never use and could have learned waaay more just staying home and carefully reading our Confessions, Calvin's Institutes and Turretin. Even doing an MDIV in 4 years is very intense and you will forget much of what you learn and won't be able to read the books deeply.

This is a sample of a seminary's demands: WSC had a Winter class on Calvin's Institutes over 3 days. Students sat in class from 12:30-4:30PM. After class, students were expected to read according to this schedule: First day: Read ~200 pages of Richard Muller's Unaccomodated Calvin and 240 pages of the Institutes; 2nd day read Institutes pg 240-725; 3rd day read Institutes pages 725-1521. After finishing your reading, write a one-page paper each day to summarize what you had read in the Institutes. How many of us spending every second of the day could finish 500-800 pages of the Institutes plus a one-page paper after spending 4 hours in class?

Great example.

I am looking specifically at GPTS right now - the cost, program, and, for me, location can't seem to be beat. Money is not really a problem for me.

What are the benefits, if any, of cramming that much information into your in such a short period of time?

What would you say are the potential down falls of taking longer (I am thinking 5-6 years) to complete your studies?

 

[Edward]

This is a sample of a seminary's demands: WSC had a Winter class on Calvin's Institutes over 3 days. Students sat in class from 12:30-4:30PM. After class, students were expected to read according to this schedule: First day: Read ~200 pages of Richard Muller's Unaccomodated Calvin and 240 pages of the Institutes; 2nd day read Institutes pg 240-725; 3rd day read Institutes pages 725-1521. After finishing your reading, write a one-page paper each day to summarize what you had read in the Institutes. How many of us spending every second of the day could finish 500-800 pages of the Institutes plus a one-page paper after spending 4 hours in class?

That class sounds like a joke. Was there a final, or were the students just buying the credit hours?

 

[Bill The Baptist]

This is a sample of a seminary's demands: WSC had a Winter class on Calvin's Institutes over 3 days. Students sat in class from 12:30-4:30PM. After class, students were expected to read according to this schedule: First day: Read ~200 pages of Richard Muller's Unaccomodated Calvin and 240 pages of the Institutes; 2nd day read Institutes pg 240-725; 3rd day read Institutes pages 725-1521. After finishing your reading, write a one-page paper each day to summarize what you had read in the Institutes. How many of us spending every second of the day could finish 500-800 pages of the Institutes plus a one-page paper after spending 4 hours in class?

That class sounds like a joke. Was there a final, or were the students just buying the credit hours?

I agree that this sounds ridiculous. The average person only reads about a page a minute, assuming it was easily understood. This means that reading 700 pages would take at least 12 hours. Unless you don't need to eat, sleep, or use the restroom, this is simply not possible. I am quite certain that every person in this class merely skimmed the reading and then winged the paper using online reviews and summaries to assist them. I am also quite certain that none of them learned anything.

 

[psycheives]

I am looking specifically at GPTS right now - the cost, program, and, for me, location can't seem to be beat. Money is not really a problem for me.

What are the benefits, if any, of cramming that much information into your in such a short period of time?

What would you say are the potential down falls of taking longer (I am thinking 5-6 years) to complete your studies?

I hear the best things about GPTS and PRTS, so very happy for you. They were both in my top 4 when choosing and now that I've learned more, they would be my top 2. The ONLY "benefit" of cramming that much is getting the degree fast (but you will NOT learn the material well). Mostly the ones doing this are international students on a limited schedule/budget or families that agree ahead of time the wife will only have to work 3 years to support them. It is a TERRIBLE way of learning. You are unable to question what you learn this way. Anyone staying home and reading even a quarter of the books you read in seminary will know their stuff 10x better than you. It really should be considered "skim learning" or "surface learning."

The only downfall of taking longer is that you won't get your degree now and get out in the workplace. Maybe an ideal job you wanted will have the current teacher retire after 30 years and be filled before you can finish? That's about it. Otherwise, I HIGHLY recommend men take at least 4 years.

 

[zsmcd]

I am looking specifically at GPTS right now - the cost, program, and, for me, location can't seem to be beat. Money is not really a problem for me.

What are the benefits, if any, of cramming that much information into your in such a short period of time?

What would you say are the potential down falls of taking longer (I am thinking 5-6 years) to complete your studies?

I hear the best things about GPTS and PRTS, so very happy for you. They were both in my top 4 when choosing and now that I've learned more, they would be my top 2. The ONLY "benefit" of cramming that much is getting the degree fast (but you will NOT learn the material well). Mostly the ones doing this are international students on a limited schedule/budget or families that agree ahead of time the wife will only have to work 3 years to support them. It is a TERRIBLE way of learning. You are unable to question what you learn this way. Anyone staying home and reading even a quarter of the books you read in seminary will know their stuff 10x better than you. It really should be considered "skim learning" or "surface learning."

The only downfall of taking longer is that you won't get your degree now and get out in the workplace. Maybe an ideal job you wanted will have the current teacher retire after 30 years and be filled before you can finish? That's about it. Otherwise, I HIGHLY recommend men take at least 4 years.

Those are some very helpful insights. Thank you, sister.

 

[psycheives]

I agree that this sounds ridiculous. The average person only reads about a page a minute, assuming it was easily understood. This means that reading 700 pages would take at least 12 hours. Unless you don't need to eat, sleep, or use the restroom, this is simply not possible. I am quite certain that every person in this class merely skimmed the reading and then winged the paper using online reviews and summaries to assist them. I am also quite certain that none of them learned anything.

Consider that WSC is known to have THE most rigorous schedule of any seminary I know, but at least this gives you an idea what to expect. And that's what I mean - seminary produces a lot of MDIVs who "skimmed" books. There is no time for in-depth reading. It is physically impossible for the average reader to actually read every word in all the books assigned. Don't forget Sunday is a Sabbath and so time is spent going to two services and fellowship in between, not studying languages. As a student, I resorted to Kindle books and had them read out loud via text-to-speech while I was cooking/driving etc.

A regular semester has you taking many classes, attending all those classes, writing papers, taking quizzes, mid-terms, finals and learning languages (takes TONS of repetition and so time). Here is a sample of the 3 year MDIV schedule at WSC:

http://tinypic.com/r/hu56ba/9

Here is an example of the reading for the Christian Mind 4 unit class - you must read 6 books:

• Cornelius Van Til, Christian Apologetics (P&R)
• Diogenes Allen, Primary Readings in Philosophy for Understanding Theology (WJK)
• Esther Lightcap Meek, Longing To Know (Brazos Press)
• Michael Horton, Introducing Covenant Theology (Baker)
• Michael Horton, The Christian Faith (Zondervan) - NOT ALL of this book is required, but about 200 long and deep pages.
• Kenneth Boa and Robert Bowman, Jr., Faith Has Its Reasons: Integrative Approaches (IVP)

Multiply this times your 4 unit classes and you get an idea of the reading load. Other seminaries will not require as much.

 

[Edward]

I am quite certain that every person in this class merely skimmed the reading and then winged the paper using online reviews and summaries to assist them.

Not disagreeing with you, but I'm not sure it's accurate to label one page a 'paper'. And unless there was an honor code certification as to the reading, I'd think skimming the table of contents should be adequate.

It all hinges, I suppose, on whether the purpose of the institution is to educate the student, or to just enable them to check off boxes.

 

[psycheives]

I am quite certain that every person in this class merely skimmed the reading and then winged the paper using online reviews and summaries to assist them.

Not disagreeing with you, but I'm not sure it's accurate to label one page a 'paper'. And unless there was an honor code certification as to the reading, I'd think skimming the table of contents should be adequate.

It all hinges, I suppose, on whether the purpose of the institution is to educate the student, or to just enable them to check off boxes.

Skimming the TOC absolutely would not qualify and most students will go to extreme lengths to try to uphold the honor system. Most students I asked actually tried to read it and ended up skimming (which is allowed) or going to audio books. A few had started reading a month ahead. The one page paper (I call it a paper because it wasn't just a summary but took some thought/comparison/analysis of Calvin's thought against Muller's book) required them to have some deeper knowledge of the material.

 

[arapahoepark]

One pastor at a small church who's youth group I would help out with, got his MDiv in 7 years from Denver seminary.

 

[Toasty]

This is a sample of a seminary's demands: WSC had a Winter class on Calvin's Institutes over 3 days. Students sat in class from 12:30-4:30PM. After class, students were expected to read according to this schedule: First day: Read ~200 pages of Richard Muller's Unaccomodated Calvin and 240 pages of the Institutes; 2nd day read Institutes pg 240-725; 3rd day read Institutes pages 725-1521. After finishing your reading, write a one-page paper each day to summarize what you had read in the Institutes. How many of us spending every second of the day could finish 500-800 pages of the Institutes plus a one-page paper after spending 4 hours in class?

That class sounds like a joke. Was there a final, or were the students just buying the credit hours?

I agree that this sounds ridiculous. The average person only reads about a page a minute, assuming it was easily understood. This means that reading 700 pages would take at least 12 hours. Unless you don't need to eat, sleep, or use the restroom, this is simply not possible. I am quite certain that every person in this class merely skimmed the reading and then winged the paper using online reviews and summaries to assist them. I am also quite certain that none of them learned anything.

Someone could do the reading before the class starts.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

As I am still considering what to do about seminary - I was having the discussion with my pastor last week about how long it took him to complete his MDiv and how he felt that he would have better benefited from the degree had he taken more time to complete it.

His concern was that there was so much he was unable to read and research for his classes and papers, due to the amount of classes he was taking, and that he really sensed that taking another year or so to complete the degree would have been much more beneficial to his retaining and benefiting from all of the knowledge gained. He received his degree from Covenant Seminary in about four years, which sounds about average.

What are your thoughts/experiences?

It seems that, as true as this may be, there will, Lord willing, be plenty of time after seminary to dive deeper into some research that you may not have benefited from due to the time restraints of a traditional 14-16 week class.

Zach,

From here it looks like you have recently joined a PCA church. Have you been speaking with the elders about your calling? Have you also considered venues such as TNARS?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I've known folks who have taken those week long seminar classes before and it is expected you've done the reading before the class starts.

 

[zsmcd]

Zach,

From here it looks like you have recently joined a PCA church. Have you been speaking with the elders about your calling? Have you also considered venues such as TNARS?

Yes sir. As I slightly hinted at in the OP, I am meeting with my pastor fairly regularly to discuss these things and to find ways to test my giftings/calling/etc. He is helping me flesh this all out, I just thought it'd be good to hear from other seminary students/grads experience.

I have seriously considered TNARS for a number of reasons. The price, curriculum, and fact that no time limit is placed on classes are great benefits. As for my current situation, however, I do have the GI Bill which provides three years of schooling. I also have Florida prepaid college that my parents blessed me with, which would provide a good amount. If I did not have the money for school, TNARS would be my #1 choice, with GPTS as my second because of the price. Fortunately, Florida prepaid alone would probably pay for 90% of GPTS tuition.

 

[Taylor]

I am currently half-way through my M.Div. (I am on a four-year track), and I attend a seminary that is know to be rather rigorous academically. I am a full-time student who also works part-time, and I am finding that this is a reasonable schedule. Yes, the work is heavy at times, but it is more than doable. I have a friend who is doing this same program in two years; I have no idea how he is managing it, to be honest. You're right: four years is standard, and I have found it to be a reasonable span of time for the M.Div.

 

[Parakaleo]

My seminary studies took me about six years (RTS Charlotte), usually going about 2/3 to 3/4 time. The Lord blessed us with several children during that time, and I worked many side jobs. I was very thankful I had more time to study and analyze and digest, and I didn't feel like every page I read or wrote had to be done at a furious pace. The trade-off was two more years as a student, with less-than-ideal stability and financial security for my family.