Stone Choir and the LXX

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Dashboard_Dog

Puritan Board Freshman
Hello all,
Has anyone been following the Stone Choir LXX/MT series? The central claim, as sent to me in a text from someone I know, is that “who are we to think that we have a better source for our OT [particularly in the MT] than that which Jesus and the apostles used, without some ultra-compelling reason?”

I have gone against this claim to my friend, specifically that all NT quotations of the OT are from the LXX and that the MT is corrupted (particularly on the issue of Christology), but I would love to hear from some of you who may be better versed in textual criticism than I. Thanks!
 
This position reflects a common claim in apologetic circles. It simplistically assumes that every NT quotation of the OT comes from a single, standardised text called the "LXX." The reality is far more complex, and the idea of a monolithic LXX text in the first century is a myth.

There was no single "LXX" in the time of the NT writers. Instead, there were various Greek translations and oral traditions of the Hebrew Scriptures circulating among Jewish communities. Some NT quotations align with surviving LXX manuscripts but others diverge significantly. Some quotations appear to be loose paraphrases, while others match Hebrew readings better than any known Greek version.

In some cases what are called "quotations" only reflect memorised readings rather than direct copying from a written source. Early preaching likely adapted Greek OT phrases dynamically for theological reasons.
 
I know this sounds like a logical fallacy, and it probably is, but he is a demon. He likes the LXX because he hates all things Hebrew.
 
Yeah not to belabor the point, but I wouldn’t touch Corey Mahler or stone choir with a 10 ft pole attached to another 10ft pole. The former’s love of Hitler and blatant antisemitism makes me suspect that there’s ulterior motives behind their LXX priority.
Not saying you agree with them, btw. But I do want to urge all that this group is to be avoided.
 
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Yeah not to be that guy, but I wouldn’t touch Corey Mahler or stone choir with a 10 ft pole attached to another 10ft pole. The former’s love of Hitler and blatant antisemitism makes me suspect that there’s ulterior motives behind their LXX priority.
Not saying you agree with them, btw. But I do want to urge all that this group is to be avoided.
Oh, I 110% agree! I am only raising this as I talk through the issue with a friend. I did mention to said friend that I don’t take Mahler’s historical claims seriously when he has made repeated egregious historical errors, but also due to his hatred for all things Jewish/Hebrew.
 
Oh, I 110% agree! I am only raising this as I talk through the issue with a friend. I did mention to said friend that I don’t take Mahler’s historical claims seriously when he has made repeated egregious historical errors, but also due to his hatred for all things Jewish/Hebrew.
I assumed it was something like, I definitely didn’t want to accuse you of anything!
To add on to your point, after listening to his debate with James White, it seemed like Mahler is good at sounding intellectual while saying things that range from fluff to completely false.
And answer your original question.. I had a thread about this recently and there were some good responses there. The LXX is definitely important, but it’s not the original text that was given to the Jewish church under the old covenant.
 
I assumed it was something like, I definitely didn’t want to accuse you of anything!
To add on to your point, after listening to his debate with James White, it seemed like Mahler is good at sounding intellectual while saying things that range from fluff to completely false.
And answer your original question.. I had a thread about this recently and there were some good responses there. The LXX is definitely important, but it’s not the original text that was given to the Jewish church under the old covenant.
Could you link me to that thread?
 
The trouble with the critics of Stone Choir is they don't actually listen for themselves.
That might be true to a certain degree, sure, we want to be intellectually honest by listening to the argument being made by the actual arguer; but these guys are well known for their beliefs. I have no need to listen to well known Hitler-loving, racists. They are but wolves in sheep's clothing and ought to be marked and avoided at the end of the day (Rom. 16:17; Titus 1:16). There is no meat to chew from men such as these that cannot be found elsewhere from actual godly sources.
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That might be true to a certain degree, sure, we want to be intellectually honest by listening to the argument being made by the actual arguer; but these guys are well known for their beliefs. I have no need to listen to well known Hitler-loving, racists. They are but wolves in sheep's clothing and ought to be marked and avoided at the end of the day (Rom. 16:17; Titus 1:16). There is no meat to chew from men such as these that cannot be found elsewhere from actual godly sources.
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They're well known for what you're told about them.
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And calling them wolves is slander.
 
Just because I was not initially up to speed on their LXX series does not mean I have never listened to them or, since this conversation begun with my friend, to read the transcripts of their LXX series. Again, you are unhelpfully assuming.
 
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t believe Mahler (or Hitler for that matter) is/was true Christians. So I respectfully deny your claims to slander.
 
Please familiarize yourself with even a little bit of what they believe before you comment. Go straight to the horse's mouth then come back.
I'm very familiar with what they believe. And I stand with Corey Mahler, and Michael Spangler for that matter. I've had more and greater amendment of life since listening to them than in all my years spent in the OPC.

Real revival is happening among their listeners, and people can't stand it for some reason...
 
Mahler was excommunicated from the visible church and then started a cult. Not good.
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I'm very familiar with what they believe. And I stand with Corey Mahler, and Michael Spangler for that matter. I've had more and greater amendment of life since listening to them than in all my years spent in the OPC.

Real revival is happening among their listeners, and people can't stand it for some reason...
If you stand with Mahler then I will pray for your soul sir.
 
The African has contributed vanishingly little to human history. When Europeans sailed around Africa in great ships armed with cannons, the African had still not discovered<a href="https://coreyjmahler.com/the-curse-of-ham/#fn8">[8]</a> the wheel. Today, Europeans have walked on the Moon and are busily investigating the secrets of the Universe — and many Africans still do not have the wheel and live in mud huts. I am writing this article with a pen no African could design, no African firm could produce, and vanishingly few Africans could afford, and I will be transcribing it using a machine far more advanced and expensive still. God has blessed the sons of Japheth; He has not done so for the sons of Ham. The average IQ of the sons of Ham is more than two standard deviations below the average for the sons of Japheth. Africa is filled with violence, crime, and suffering, and such follows the sons of Ham wherever they go, for they are the cause of it. The only time anywhere in Africa has had functional government and a functioning society and institutions in recorded history (after Biblical times) is when and where it has been under European rule — colonialism.
Quote from Mahler

Another relevant website

Revival? This seems more like being given over to sin.
 
Thread temporarily closed to prevent cascading floods of reported posts.

Thread reopened; there should be no further promotion of wickedness.
 
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I'm very familiar with what they believe. And I stand with Corey Mahler, and Michael Spangler for that matter. I've had more and greater amendment of life since listening to them than in all my years spent in the OPC.

Real revival is happening among their listeners, and people can't stand it for some reason...
You should talk with your pastor and elders about these men. They will warn you about them just as those here have.
 
I also have a copy of Dr. Kirk D. DiVietro's, Did Jesus and the Apostles Quote from the Septuagint (LXX)?, where he compares readings, both from the Hebrew and the Greek, and I could scan a few pages from that.

This is from pages 4 and 7 (before he compares the actual quotes in Greek and Hebrew) :

The Aramaic Talmuds which contained acceptable Aramaic paraphrases of the Hebrew text were considered authoritative commentaries, but not the word of God. The Palestinian Jewish community accepted only the Hebrew Scriptures. This was the community of Jesus and the Apostles.​
​
The prophets and the Hagiographa (Holy Writings), the other two divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, were the object of various official and unofficial translation attempts. By the days of Philo (100 B.C.) and Josephus (100 A.D.), there was an almost complete Alexandrian version of the Old Testament. While this Greek Old Testament did circulate in the Hellenistic world, it did not enjoy the full confidence of its readers except in the synagogues of Egypt....​
​
Other regions of the Hellenistic world combined the Alexandrian Pentateuch with a regional Greek text of the Prophets and Holy Writings. There were regional Greek Bibles which enjoyed varying confidence by their readers.​
​
In Alexandria, the confidence was almost unshakable. In Israel, the Hebrew Scriptures continued to dominate in the Synagogue. There were forms of the Greek Old Testament available to Jesus and the writers of the New Testament Scripture. Usually the Alexandrian translation of the Law of Moses combined with a regionally done copy of the Holy Writings and the Prophets, is called the Septuagint in a non-technical sense. BUT, there is no reliable evidence that the Septuagint as it is known and published today, did* exist in the pre-Christ world.​
​
In this paper, I will attempt to clarify my use of the term in its setting. We are asking the question, “Did Jesus and the writers of the New Testament use a complete, universally accepted Greek Old Testament, produced in Alexandria, Egypt, as the authoritative Word of God.”​
​
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....If Jesus and the writers of Scripture accepted [the LXX] as authoritative Scripture then the plenary, verbal inspiration of Scripture is irrelevant. If Jesus and the writers of Scripture accepted it as authoritative Scripture then the doctrine of preservation is a sham.​
​
The Value of the Septuagint to Us​
What value does the LXX have for us? Just because the LXX is not the Bible of Jesus and the writers of Scripture does not mean that it is valueless. The Septuagint married the vocabulary of Greece to the theology of Israel. If this marriage had not taken place Christianity would have either died as an extension of Israel’s law, or Greece’s logic. But in the Septuagint, God provided a commentary and word study….​
​
The work of the early Greek translators of the Old Testament provided a ready made translational database for Jesus and the writers of Scripture. While on occasion they may have coined a phrase or borrowed vocabulary, the writers of the New Testament had established Greek equivalents to work with. The similarities between fragmentary Greek Old Testament manuscripts and the New Testament may well have been the joyful result of not having to reinvent the wheel. While they may not have used the pseudo-Septuagints for their daily Bible, they may well have used them to shortcut the process of restating a Hebrew quote in the Greek New Testament. When the pseudo-Septuagint fell short in accuracy, the writer would offer a Holy Ghost inspired running translation.​
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The pseudo-Septuagint offers the modern Bible student a rich source of semi-Biblical, theological literature. Having this large homogenous yet diverse body of literature, the student can determine with relative accuracy the meaning of words he finds in the Greek New Testament. The search facilities of modern computers allows the student to do original statistical analysis and reach first hand decisions on matters of definition and use. The student is no longer servant to the scholars.​
[End of DiVietro]
 
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I assumed it was something like, I definitely didn’t want to accuse you of anything!
To add on to your point, after listening to his debate with James White, it seemed like Mahler is good at sounding intellectual while saying things that range from fluff to completely false.
And answer your original question.. I had a thread about this recently and there were some good responses there. The LXX is definitely important, but it’s not the original text that was given to the Jewish church under the old covenant.
Is the debate a useful one? I've been considering listening to it, but don't want to expose myself to the toxicity of the matter unnecessarily. I do believe it is something I want to have an answer to.
 
I'm very familiar with what they believe. And I stand with Corey Mahler, and Michael Spangler for that matter. I've had more and greater amendment of life since listening to them than in all my years spent in the OPC.

Real revival is happening among their listeners, and people can't stand it for some reason...
CREC Moscow? Perhaps you would like to see some of Mahler's anti-Semitic hatred directed at Doug Wilson: https://x.com/search?q=from:CoreyJMahler Wilson&src=typed_query
 
I'm very familiar with what they believe. And I stand with Corey Mahler, and Michael Spangler for that matter. I've had more and greater amendment of life since listening to them than in all my years spent in the OPC.

Real revival is happening among their listeners, and people can't stand it for some reason...

This Michael Spangler?

Screen Shot 2025-07-15 at 09.23.40.png
 
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