Credobaptist objection

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Was the cup of wrath poured out onto him, or was he immersed in God’s wrath? Gill, and other Baptists, use what seems like to me special pleading to avoid the obvious sacramental/cleansing language surrounding baptism, and that it obviously doesn’t just mean ‘dip or immerse.’ The same happens with Pentecost. Something like this: ‘There was so much of the Spirit poured out, it so filled the room, that it was as if they were immersed in it, therefore baptism can mean immersion here too.’

You seem okay with a different application (water applied to the man), but many (most?) Baptists say the person must be put down into the water to symbolize Jesus’ burial. But that’s not what happened with the wrath nor at Pentecost.
It's been a pleasure reading your comments. Love the insights. Never thought about God pouring wrath connecting it to the means of baptism, will love to read more. I used to love Gill commentary, but my PCA pastor showed me how he(and other baptist commentators) mishandle Romans 4, and it's like scales falling off.
 
Cornelius’ household:

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. (Acts 10:44–48, ESV)

Peter baptized those who believed the word and received the Spirit, it says nothing about unbelieving children.

Peter’s Retelling of the Event

And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” (Acts 11:13–18, ESV)

  • Reference to entire household saved, receiving the Spirit, baptism.
  • Connection between baptism of the Spirit and baptism with water, not circumcision
1 Peter

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (1 Peter 3:21–22, ESV)

Sounds credobaptist to me.

Baptism does not save infants.

Just honor the details of the text, it leads you right to the truth.
 
Cornelius’ household:

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. (Acts 10:44–48, ESV)

Peter baptized those who believed the word and received the Spirit, it says nothing about unbelieving children.

Peter’s Retelling of the Event

And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” (Acts 11:13–18, ESV)

  • Reference to entire household saved, receiving the Spirit, baptism.
  • Connection between baptism of the Spirit and baptism with water, not circumcision
Per 10:1, his household already feared God, so this isn’t the slam dunk you think it is. Cornelius, by God’s grace, already understood that his fear of God ought to affect his family.

The emphasis seems to be on the redemptive historical moment - Gentiles included without becoming Jews. This is why they spoke in tongues. The emphasis is not individual salvation, it is covenant expansion. This is the theme of Acts (1:8). This is shown to be the emphasis in v.45: ‘And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.’

We could say the same thing: just pay attention to the detail and the truth reveals itself. We’re all trying to be biblical.
 
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Thank you.

The Baptism saves argument looks good. I think most of us who do not hold to baptismal regeneration mishandle the "baptism now saves you.." text. The language is slightly heavy for me though, and I would like to listen to a video that expatiates your point. Any resource I can listen to?
Think that the Typical reformed Baptist understanding of Acts 2:38 passage would be that the Greek text and grammar would be indicating that Peter was asking them to be water Baptized now in the name of the Lord Jesus, as he would be the source and the one who had atoned for their sins , not that the water itself conferred that salvation from their sins in and by itself
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Of course not. They are baptized because they are holy, not the other way around.
Would not all babies though be in same state before God, regardless if water baptied or not?
 
Baptism does not save infants.

As you would like the Scriptures to speak then it is important to observe that Peter does not say baptism is a profession of faith. He says baptism saves us. And so, in the case of infants who are elect, baptism saves them as much as anyone else who is elect, that is, in the sense Peter intended. In the sense that you claim baptism does not save infants, it is redundant, because baptism does not save anyone. Peter makes that clear in his qualification.
 
We could say the same thing: just pay attention to the detail and the truth reveals itself. We’re all trying to be biblical.

I appreciate that. Sometimes I sense here extra-biblical resources start to become as authoritative as Scripture itself at times.

And so, in the case of infants who are elect, baptism saves them as much as anyone else who is elect, that is, in the sense Peter intended.

And what sense is that?
 
Well I came back to quite a lot missed.

I think there is a need or - if not need - would be great interest in a big back-and-forth with two interlocutors who are capable and trained in Biblical exegesis and are willing to go deep on Col. 2 and Acts 2 and all the rest.

Jim @TheInquirer is quite correct when he says extra-biblical sources become the main focus point. I can throw Gill's exposition at one; he can throw Flavel or whomever at me back-and-forth. That is not an argument nor constructive. That is the level at which these things tend to go and the level at which these things tend to remain.

Usually, when a thread like this is out in the open, I love laying out a mini-case for credobaptism in the form I did originally. Usually, it lays there and is left alone. I do this not to convince anyone (OP you included) but for the sake of the hundreds of lurkers who quietly read these pages and let God work in their lives however he works in their lives.

This thread was different. Someone actually bit on the mini-case and a pseudo-debate emerged. Not an actual debate with agreed-upon definitions and an application of differing expositions of Col. 2 or Acts 2 or whatever else from differing interpretations using agreed Reformed hermeneutical principles.

I once was a part of a philosophical forum where free will vs. determinism was debated in a thread where all posters were locked out of except the two interlocutors. And they had specific questions they had to answer: affirmative or negative. In their structuring of their arguments, they could only ask CLARIFYING questions of one or the other. Each interlocutor had 48 hours to post the next post when it was their turn.

When it came time to cross-examine the other, each one could ask a limited number of questions. And it was regardless of if the other answered them fully or not

[meaning that if Debater B asked Debater A if he believed X, and Debater A "answered" in the form of sidestepping: (eg "It is basically Biblical theology" while also claiming that "I don't need chapter and verse"), then it would be up to Debater B to either press that or move on to another line of questioning based on his own desire to reveal or discover the flaw in the other's reasoning.]

After all concluding statements were made, then the moderator (who did have power to admonish either Debater A or B if they went out of line in their comportment or dodging questions) would open up the thread to the members at large. Usually the debaters would be gone by then but sometimes they would hang and make clarifying points but that was only if a large portion of the reading public had misunderstood his point here or there.

All of that was just FYI. Not an argument for this, just thinking out loud in a way.
 
I can throw Gill's exposition at one; he can throw Flavel or whomever at me back-and-forth. That is not an argument nor constructive
I believe me and you both argued constructively, then ushered in historical support. For my part, I do not know how to be more constructive than what I offered in post #25.
 
I’m not sure a Baptist who doesn’t require rebaptism is entirely consistent, but at least they’re nice

I want to be very clear here: they were not being inconsistent nor were they being "nice".

What I am about to say applies not to all 1689 adherents but enough of us to be a significant number:

We believe there is is only one true baptism and any true church - by necessity - performs true baptisms.

We would see your infant baptism as an invalid mode but still legal, since we would not see you as an invalid subject based on your subsequent public profession of faith and evidence of fruit of the Spirit to become a communicant member of the PCA, OPC, ARC, RPCNA et al (all true churches in our view).

Another way of saying it is that a true church confirms you qualify as a member of the invisible church with any and all charity as anyone out there can have.

Now if you had been infant baptized into Roman Catholic (which we deny is a true church per Turretin et al), it would depend: did the PCA or whomever accept your Roman infant baptism as legal and then you subsequently publicly professed faith becoming a legal - and valid - communicant member of the PCA or any other true church? Then I would be ok with no re-baptism (honestly not sure about all elders).

But if there comes one who was baptized as an infant in a true Presbyterian church, but by the age of 2, their parents left church altogether and that person never went back - stunted in their walk - but now after that time long ago, came to us energetically asking to be a member, then we would probably ask for re-baptism - not necessarily because his first baptism was an infant baptism in and of itself - but as there is no real verification from a true church about what happened over time.

ie invalid mode, invalid subject and no validation over time by a true church = illegal.

(I suppose even the paedobaptists would halt his enthusiasm and look hard and then assess whatever means you have for assessing the profession of saving faith as well before letting him to the Table.)

Do we deny the Lord's Table is truly the Lord's Table in the PCA or OPC etc? Simply because no one (or very few) were baptized as self-aware professors of Christ? We do not.

That seems to put too much weight on the distinctives and not enough charity for the obvious fact that our Lord's love covers a multitude of sins of errors - and that is evidently true in all of us - and that is no matter which one of us turns out to be right when we worship around his throne!

I mean, a "re-baptism" per se is never necessary for it is only recommended in cases where we are truly convicted no real baptism ever took place (Rome/ EO / infant Presbyterian who cut themselves short of public profession with evidence of saving grace / "Oneness" Pentecostals who only baptize in the name of Jesus as they deny the Trinity / etc etc etc)

This is not novel either. Nor unique to me. It is rather historical.

Beyond Bunyan receiving infant baptized as members (and he was never confessional anyway), the Particular Baptists wrote 29.4 as "Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance."

Why allow for the other mode?

"Other modes of baptism are undue actions. ... 'Due' [as used in the 2LBCF] ... has the same sense [in previous uses] indicating that there is a proper, and also an improper way to baptize. Immersion is the proper form; by implication, other methods are improper. This may reflect the post-Reformation concept between valid and lawful baptisms: an action may be improper but still legal." - Jim Renihan (pp. 549, 550)

He then quotes a Scottish theologian named James MacPherson:

"so little disposed were the divines of Scotland (and other Reformed churches) to question the validity of baptism administered within any Christian church that they even declined to pronounce baptism administered by a deposed minister as invalid, and rather introduced a distinction, useful though somewhat fine, between a valid and a lawful baptism. The action of the deposed minister and the conduct of those receiving baptism at his hands was distinctly unlawful, but the baptism itself was valid, and as such could not be ignored ..."

Renihan continues from p. 550 - 551:

"The appendix to the [1689] Confession recognizes that paedobaptist churches are true congregations of Christ. After expressing their doctrinal agreement with paedobaptist churches, they say:

'And although we differ from our brethren who are Paedobaptists, in the subject and administration of Baptisme, and such other circumstances as have a necessary dependence on our observance of that Ordinance, and do frequent our own assemblies for our mutual edification and discharge of those duties and services we owe unto God, and in his fear to each other: yet we would not be from hence misconstrued, as if the discharge of our own consciences herein did any wayes disoblige or alienate our affections, or conversation from any others that fear the Lord; but that we may and do as we have opportunity participate of the labors of those, whom God hath indued with abilities above ourselves and qualified and called to the Ministry of the Word, earnestly desiring to approve ourselves to be such as follow after peace with holiness, and therefore we always keep that blessed Irenicum or healing Word of the Apostle before our eyes; if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal this unto you; nevertheless whereto we have already attained; let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. [Phil. 3:15,16]' ... They clearly regarded paedobaptist churches as true churches and were well aware of the issues surrounding baptism ... It seems .. that while they themselves would only practice immersion as the due method of administration, at least some of the churches could receive members who may not have been baptized by due means." (italics original to Renihan, not me)

Renihan then goes to relate Nehemiah Coxe's Petty France church receiving a woman from a Pinners' Hall Independent church.

Also, he writes of:

"Broadmead, Bristol accepted a letter of membership transfer for their new pastor's wife from a Presbyterian congregation in London. And the Stevington, Bedfordshire Particular Baptist assembly received a woman from an Independent church in Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire. There is no indication that baptism was required of these people when they joined these assemblies." (Renihan 551)

He cites their records:

"Petty France, CMB. Hayden, The Records of a Church of Christ, 186. The London Presbyterian church's pastor was Thomas Vincent. The letter indicated that the Presbyterian church admitted members: 1 Upon Enquiry of ye parties' knowledge of God and ye Doctrine of Salvation. 2. Upon Enquiry of ye Work of Grace upon their Hearts. 3. Upon Enquiry of a Good and Blameless Conversation. The Broadmeade scribe says that this was 'as wee doe'

(He isn't specific but Renihan seems to be suggesting that the Pastor Thomas Vincent downplays the infant baptism and kind of rolls into number 2 allowing Broadmead to reply that they do likewise (number 2) while the issue of her (the wife coming over) baptism is kind of waved away)
 
I believe me and you both argued constructively, then ushered in historical support. For my part, I do not know how to be more constructive than what I offered in post #25.

I believe you, but you jump the gun with your 3 reasons. No, wait. More to the point, you jump the gun with the foundations built underneath them. In Post # 25 you do construct an argument but it needs agreed-upon definitions and framing before you fit your framework on the text with its attending presumptions and assumptions you make re: the typology of the circumcision of the flesh.

This leaves me in a position of disagreement but unsure of where the conclusions you laid out came from (suspecting the source prooftexts these are drawn from include many points that I would probably agree with).

Your 3 reasons are a perfect example of an interlocutor (in this case, me) having so many questions as to how the type works in your view that I literally cannot reply outside of asking a lot of clarifying questions. Your argument is not constructive for that reason.

It's not negative or a criticism per se. I do it too. Most everyone here does it over and over.

It is kinda what happens in this loosy-goosy environment where one side takes complex concepts derived from deep literature from their view and then fits the concept into simple phrases in order to lay it out to the other side with intent to be as full and comprehensive as possible.
 
I want to be very clear here: they were not being inconsistent nor were they being "nice".

What I am about to say applies not to all 1689 adherents but enough of us to be a significant number:

We believe there is is only one true baptism and any true church - by necessity - performs true baptisms.

We would see your infant baptism as an invalid mode but still legal, since we would not see you as an invalid subject based on your subsequent public profession of faith and evidence of fruit of the Spirit to become a communicant member of the PCA, OPC, ARC, RPCNA et al (all true churches in our view).

Another way of saying it is that a true church confirms you qualify as a member of the invisible church with any and all charity as anyone out there can have.

Now if you had been infant baptized into Roman Catholic (which we deny is a true church per Turretin et al), it would depend: did the PCA or whomever accept your Roman infant baptism as legal and then you subsequently publicly professed faith becoming a legal - and valid - communicant member of the PCA or any other true church? Then I would be ok with no re-baptism (honestly not sure about all elders).

But if there comes one who was baptized as an infant in a true Presbyterian church, but by the age of 2, their parents left church altogether and that person never went back - stunted in their walk - but now after that time long ago, came to us energetically asking to be a member, then we would probably ask for re-baptism - not necessarily because his first baptism was an infant baptism in and of itself - but as there is no real verification from a true church about what happened over time.

ie invalid mode, invalid subject and no validation over time by a true church = illegal.

(I suppose even the paedobaptists would halt his enthusiasm and look hard and then assess whatever means you have for assessing the profession of saving faith as well before letting him to the Table.)

Do we deny the Lord's Table is truly the Lord's Table in the PCA or OPC etc? Simply because no one (or very few) were baptized as self-aware professors of Christ? We do not.

That seems to put too much weight on the distinctives and not enough charity for the obvious fact that our Lord's love covers a multitude of sins of errors - and that is evidently true in all of us - and that is no matter which one of us turns out to be right when we worship around his throne!

I mean, a "re-baptism" per se is never necessary for it is only recommended in cases where we are truly convicted no real baptism ever took place (Rome/ EO / infant Presbyterian who cut themselves short of public profession with evidence of saving grace / "Oneness" Pentecostals who only baptize in the name of Jesus as they deny the Trinity / etc etc etc)

This is not novel either. Nor unique to me. It is rather historical.

Beyond Bunyan receiving infant baptized as members (and he was never confessional anyway), the Particular Baptists wrote 29.4 as "Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance."

Why allow for the other mode?

"Other modes of baptism are undue actions. ... 'Due' [as used in the 2LBCF] ... has the same sense [in previous uses] indicating that there is a proper, and also an improper way to baptize. Immersion is the proper form; by implication, other methods are improper. This may reflect the post-Reformation concept between valid and lawful baptisms: an action may be improper but still legal." - Jim Renihan (pp. 549, 550)

He then quotes a Scottish theologian named James MacPherson:

"so little disposed were the divines of Scotland (and other Reformed churches) to question the validity of baptism administered within any Christian church that they even declined to pronounce baptism administered by a deposed minister as invalid, and rather introduced a distinction, useful though somewhat fine, between a valid and a lawful baptism. The action of the deposed minister and the conduct of those receiving baptism at his hands was distinctly unlawful, but the baptism itself was valid, and as such could not be ignored ..."

Renihan continues from p. 550 - 551:

"The appendix to the [1689] Confession recognizes that paedobaptist churches are true congregations of Christ. After expressing their doctrinal agreement with paedobaptist churches, they say:

'And although we differ from our brethren who are Paedobaptists, in the subject and administration of Baptisme, and such other circumstances as have a necessary dependence on our observance of that Ordinance, and do frequent our own assemblies for our mutual edification and discharge of those duties and services we owe unto God, and in his fear to each other: yet we would not be from hence misconstrued, as if the discharge of our own consciences herein did any wayes disoblige or alienate our affections, or conversation from any others that fear the Lord; but that we may and do as we have opportunity participate of the labors of those, whom God hath indued with abilities above ourselves and qualified and called to the Ministry of the Word, earnestly desiring to approve ourselves to be such as follow after peace with holiness, and therefore we always keep that blessed Irenicum or healing Word of the Apostle before our eyes; if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal this unto you; nevertheless whereto we have already attained; let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. [Phil. 3:15,16]' ... They clearly regarded paedobaptist churches as true churches and were well aware of the issues surrounding baptism ... It seems .. that while they themselves would only practice immersion as the due method of administration, at least some of the churches could receive members who may not have been baptized by due means." (italics original to Renihan, not me)

Renihan then goes to relate Nehemiah Coxe's Petty France church receiving a woman from a Pinners' Hall Independent church.

Also, he writes of:

"Broadmead, Bristol accepted a letter of membership transfer for their new pastor's wife from a Presbyterian congregation in London. And the Stevington, Bedfordshire Particular Baptist assembly received a woman from an Independent church in Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire. There is no indication that baptism was required of these people when they joined these assemblies." (Renihan 551)

He cites their records:

"Petty France, CMB. Hayden, The Records of a Church of Christ, 186. The London Presbyterian church's pastor was Thomas Vincent. The letter indicated that the Presbyterian church admitted members: 1 Upon Enquiry of ye parties' knowledge of God and ye Doctrine of Salvation. 2. Upon Enquiry of ye Work of Grace upon their Hearts. 3. Upon Enquiry of a Good and Blameless Conversation. The Broadmeade scribe says that this was 'as wee doe'

(He isn't specific but Renihan seems to be suggesting that the Pastor Thomas Vincent downplays the infant baptism and kind of rolls into number 2 allowing Broadmead to reply that they do likewise (number 2) while the issue of her (the wife coming over) baptism is kind of waved away)
Just a question, as being a reformed Baptist, would not require personally one to be rebaptized if they had been baptized in what would be considered a NT church, but in order to be an attending member many churches would require an adult water baptism, so how would be viewing that then?
 
Jim @TheInquirer is quite correct when he says extra-biblical sources become the main focus point. I can throw Gill's exposition at one; he can throw Flavel or whomever at me back-and-forth. That is not an argument nor constructive. That is the level at which these things tend to go and the level at which these things tend to remain.
...per Turretin et al....Beyond Bunyan... the Particular Baptists wrote 29.4....Jim Renihan (pp. 549, 550)....He then quotes a Scottish theologian named James MacPherson...
I think your moderator would call foul!
 
Did not know Water Baptism applied in that chapter?

Romans 4 relates to "covenant paedobaptism" only insofar as Romans 4 talks about Abraham's circumcision. "Covenant Paedobaptists", of course, would claim that circumcision and water baptism were the same specie of sacrament, and so this discourse is relevant to that topic.
 
And what sense is that?

Peter is saying that baptism is the God‑appointed sign of salvation. Just as the waters of the flood lifted the ark above judgment and carried those inside to safety, so the waters of baptism signify the salvation of all who are in Christ. The saving power was not in the water of the flood, but in the ark; and the water served only to bear up the ark and separate the righteous from the world under judgment. In the same way, the saving power is not in the water of baptism, but in Christ, into whom we are enclosed by faith and by the Spirit. Therefore, all who are saved are saved "by baptism" in the same sense that Noah was saved "by water." It is not because the water has power in itself, but because God uses the water as the visible sign and seal of the salvation that Christ alone accomplishes. And He has accomplished this salvation for the elect, infants as well as adults.
 
Romans 4 relates to "covenant paedobaptism" only insofar as Romans 4 talks about Abraham's circumcision. "Covenant Paedobaptists", of course, would claim that circumcision and water baptism were the same specie of sacrament, and so this discourse is relevant to that topic.
The crux of the argument is pretty simple. There's one saving covenant throughout the bible-the Covenant of grace. Christ and his righteousness is the substance of this covenant, as well as both covenants(the old and the new); that's why Abraham believes in the promise and it is counted for him as righteousness(Gal 3:8)--the righteousness is not his, it's the righteousness of Christ. To the former, circumcision as sign and seal of the covenant, and to the latter, baptism is the sign and seal of the covenant. And if the former required that sign (circumcision) be given to his/their offspring then by logical inference, baptism needs to be given to the offspring of those in the new covenant, this is why Paul draws the parallel between circumcision and baptism in Col 2.
Both signs point to the inner reality: circumcison of the heart || baptism of the Spirit, two sides of the same coin. That's why Peter can easily say Baptism now saves you, because baptism isn't limited to the physical sign(pouring of water) but points to the inner reality(Baptism of the Spirit) which effectually saves.
 
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Peter is saying that baptism is the God‑appointed sign of salvation. Just as the waters of the flood lifted the ark above judgment and carried those inside to safety, so the waters of baptism signify the salvation of all who are in Christ. The saving power was not in the water of the flood, but in the ark; and the water served only to bear up the ark and separate the righteous from the world under judgment. In the same way, the saving power is not in the water of baptism, but in Christ, into whom we are enclosed by faith and by the Spirit. Therefore, all who are saved are saved "by baptism" in the same sense that Noah was saved "by water." It is not because the water has power in itself, but because God uses the water as the visible sign and seal of the salvation that Christ alone accomplishes. And He has accomplished this salvation for the elect, infants as well as adults.
Just beautiful!

One thing that made it pretty clear for me with the paedo position is just how the New Testament sweetly unravels the types, shadows and prophecies of the Old Testament consistently.
 
That's where it all falls apart, though. The Old Covenant is most certainly not the same substance as the New Covenant. The Old Covenant had no power to save.
How doesn't it have any power to save??

7 I will confirm my covenant as a perpetual covenant between me and you. It will extend to your descendants after you throughout their generations. I will be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
8 I will give the whole land of Canaan --- the land where you are now residing --- to you and your descendants after you as a permanent possession. I will be their God."
9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep the covenantal requirement I am imposing on you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
10 This is my requirement that you and your descendants after you must keep: Every male among you must be circumcised.

And....

6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you."

Abraham was saved upon believe in those promises. That was the gospel to him.
 
How doesn't it have any power to save??

7 I will confirm my covenant as a perpetual covenant between me and you. It will extend to your descendants after you throughout their generations. I will be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
8 I will give the whole land of Canaan --- the land where you are now residing --- to you and your descendants after you as a permanent possession. I will be their God."
9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep the covenantal requirement I am imposing on you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
10 This is my requirement that you and your descendants after you must keep: Every male among you must be circumcised.

And....

6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you."

Abraham was saved upon believe in those promises. That was the gospel to him.

We could go back and forth, but Reformed Baptists have been addressing this for centuries. And up until the Reformation, the dominant view was that Old Covenant saints (Abraham, etc.) were saved by the the New Covenant, not the Old.

 
We could go back and forth, but Reformed Baptists have been addressing this for centuries. And up until the Reformation, the dominant view was that Old Covenant saints (Abraham, etc.) were saved by the the New Covenant, not the Old.

Do you hold this in the same intention in which it is taught by the persons quoted, that is, that they had these benefits THERE AND THEN through what was ministered to them THERE AND THEN? If so, your claim is irrelevant. Because infants enjoyed these benefits THERE AND THEN by virtue of the new covenant. This proves infants are members of the new covenant. In the end these quotations argue against your "Reformed Baptist" contention. Along with many other quotations provided on that web site, they are misappropriated.
 
We could go back and forth, but Reformed Baptists have been addressing this for centuries. And up until the Reformation, the dominant view was that Old Covenant saints (Abraham, etc.) were saved by the the New Covenant, not the Old.

You actually just reinforced my point.

Old Testament saints like Abraham were saved by Christ’s blood, looking forward to its fulfillment. The saving virtue of Christ’s sacrifice was applied forward in time to them and is applied backward in time to us, relative to the cross.

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. Heb 9

Christ died “to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.” That means the Old Covenant was not an empty, merely external arrangement. It administered the same saving promise, grounded in the same mediator.

Abraham and the faithful in Israel were not outside the covenant of grace. The difference between Old and New is not the substance, which is Christ, but the clarity and administration. And if children belonged to the covenant administration when Christ was still promised, why would they suddenly be excluded after he came?
 
Matthew,

This thread is getting a bit murky but I wanted to ask a couple of follow up questions to understand your thinking:

  • What do you think is the "appeal to God for a good conscience" in the 1 Peter passage?
  • In your system, what aspect of the New Covenant are infants of believers in, the external or internal? What benefits of the NC are conveyed to them as infants?
  • Do you believe all infants of believers will be saved?

Just beautiful!

Matthew is an excellent writer. Even when I disagree with him I acknowledge his writing skill and concise prose as well as obvious devotion to theological study.

Christ died “to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.” That means the Old Covenant was not an empty, merely external arrangement. It administered the same saving promise, grounded in the same mediator.

I don't quite follow how sins committed under the OC necessarily proves the OC has the same substance as the NC. Seems like you need an NC to make up for what was lacking in the OC (and not merely just a change of administration).
 
Do you hold this in the same intention in which it is taught by the persons quoted, that is, that they had these benefits THERE AND THEN through what was ministered to them THERE AND THEN? If so, your claim is irrelevant. Because infants enjoyed these benefits THERE AND THEN by virtue of the new covenant. This proves infants are members of the new covenant. In the end these quotations argue against your "Reformed Baptist" contention. Along with many other quotations provided on that web site, they are misappropriated.

Do you hold to Regeneration by Circumcision? Because if not, then it doesn't seem like you've really thought through these things very well.
 
Because when He takes a man into covenant with Himself He takes the "whole" of that man, he and all that he has.
Amen
I even think that a wife of a true believer could be baptized even though she is still unsaved yet willing to submit to her husband.
 
  • What do you think is the "appeal to God for a good conscience" in the 1 Peter passage?
  • In your system, what aspect of the New Covenant are infants of believers in, the external or internal? What benefits of the NC are conveyed to them as infants?
  • Do you believe all infants of believers will be saved?

These are good follow-up questions. Once we recognise the manner in which baptism saves, that is, as God's pledge to us, then the "effect" of it from the human side includes our pledge to God. This is a covenantal vow of allegiance. So the "answer of a good conscience” is the believer's act of faith responding to God's promise in baptism. It is not the ground of salvation but the appointed way in which the baptised person lays hold of Christ's cleansing. This preserves the objective efficacy of the sacrament, which is God's pledge along with the subjective appropriation of it in our answer. But the priority is given to the objective fact since God speaks first. This avoids turning baptism into either a bare symbol or automatic regeneration.

External membership includes covenant administration, signs, promises, and nurture. Internal membership involves union with Christ, regeneration, faith, forgiveness. All who profess the true religion and their children are covenant members outwardly. Only the elect are members inwardly. The visible church can only act in terms of outward membership, and this is true with respect to adults and infants. Only God acts in terms of inward membership because He knows those who are His and regenerates them where and how He will. As with the tares and the wheat, elect and reprobate are allowed to grow up together to ensure the wheat is not inadvertently pulled up. The means of grace are effectual to the elect among them; hence they must not be denied the means.

All infants of believers will not be saved. Jacob is loved and Esau is hated. Both are children of Isaac. This is used to describe the "present time" of the apostle Paul. There are children of the promise and children of the flesh. Election, not covenant birth, determines salvation. So, no, not all infants of believers will be saved, and yet from the human side we have warrant to hope for the salvation of our children, to pray for them, and to trust that God ordinarily works through the covenant means He has appointed.
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Do you hold to Regeneration by Circumcision? Because if not, then it doesn't seem like you've really thought through these things very well.

Circumcision was a sign of regeneration as is baptism. But not an empty sign. It is a means of grace in the case of the elect. See my other answers in this thread as to why this is objectively important in the salvation of infants. I have actually given this a lot of thought over the years, as my posts on PB would indicate, as well as the many sermons I have preached where it is relevant in the ordinary course of expository preaching.
 
I don't quite follow how sins committed under the OC necessarily proves the OC has the same substance as the NC. Seems like you need an NC to make up for what was lacking in the OC (and not merely just a change of administration).
Then this is a big step down from the Old Testament Covenant. No man can see the heart of another man to know whether he is or is not a true Christian. Man can only look at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. It is foolish to think you can know who really is saved and worthy of church membership if you are thinking you can know the state of any other human being.
 
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