Kline on Postmillennialism

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TennesseeShepherd

Puritan Board Freshman
I'm currently reading Olinger's book "Christ and His Bride-Church" which is an accumulation of Kline's views on eschatology and am having trouble understanding the following quote (the outer quote is Olinger, and the inner quote is Kline).
[P]ostmillennialism is in conflict with the doctrine of common grace when it locates the messianic kingdom prophecies in an earthly millennial kingdom where the universal idea of old covenant law is realized. Consequently, consistent postmillennialists interpret the Mosaic covenant that God gave Israel as the constitution for the Old Testament theocratic kingdom as the constitution for an ordinary state kingdom. "What was meant to apply to the special redemptive institution of the theocracy--the demand to confess God, the guarantee that obedience to the covenant stipulations will be rewarded with earthly prosperity and power, etc.--must all be regarded by the postmillennialist as normative for the state, any state."

The result of such a conception is the undue mixing of the biblical concepts of the common and the holy. That is, what common grace makes secular is sacralized and what the old covenant theocracy makes sacred is secularized. Kline concluded, "It appears then that certain varieties at least of premillennialism and postmillennialism are not compatible withe the biblical doctrine of common grace."
I'm afraid I don't get it. Is he saying that believing obedience to God will tend to result in both material and spiritual blessings is incompatible with the doctrine of common grace? If so, how so? If not, what is he saying?
 
I'm afraid I don't get it. Is he saying that believing obedience to God will tend to result in both material and spiritual blessings is incompatible with the doctrine of common grace? If so, how so? If not, what is he saying?

Postmillennialism holds that nations are morally accountable to God and must obey God's law. The gospel transforms cultures, which means there is a legitimate sense in which Christ's kingdom advances in history. The Great Commission concerns the nations. Christianity has a voice in secular, public affairs. Religion is not simply a private matter. Christ's kingship is not restricted to the church.

Kline's system requires a "secularised" common realm. His doctrine of common grace seeks to create a religiously neutral, non-redemptive, non-holy sphere. In that realm God apparently does not impose His law as a covenant Lord and does not require nations to confess Him. There are no promises of covenantal blessing for obedience and God does not judge nations typologically. The whole scheme is designed to justify the status quo secularism of a modern pluralistic society. The state must be religiously neutral. If the state is "common" then it cannot be Christian.
 
I confess I have yet to ever hear Kline’s name mentioned in a context where I did not strongly disagree with his views and find his influence to be negative, and this is yet another such case. Common grace (insofar as we can speak of such a thing) only serves to outwardly conform men to God’s law. Instead of murdering, natural men do not murder. It is plainly an absurd argument, since the question is not concerning the behavior of natural men but their objective duties before God and the success of the kingdom of heaven against the kingdom of darkness. No grace makes anything “secular” in this sense, since such secularism is rebellion against the authority of God.
 
How do others work out postmil considerations better?

We visited a ‘reformed Baptist’ church this past weekend (visiting Durango CO), it was very edifying and encouraging! However, while preaching from Micah 4 he certainly had more postmil leanings.. and I’ve yet to read someone make sense of ‘golden age’ theory

I’m more curious about this, as it always seems to me that these texts point the next age, not something that comes to pass before the Lord returns

By the responses on this thread, safe to assume Kline isn’t close to classic historic postmil?
 
Few men have done as much harm to the Reformed churches in the United States as Kline.
This is overheated rhetoric. MGK was among the earnest stalwarts who defended the concept of the Covenant of Works in the 20th century, when other greats like John Murray (whom we should also not disparage) were foolishly calling the bi-covenantal formulation of our fundamental principles into doubt.

I repented some time back of my own harsh criticism of MGK. He was wrong about some things, in my opinion, and a few of his students went much further in erroneous directions on certain topics than his musings led him. But, who is able to so perfectly guide that no failure will ever be traced back to him?

Where he was right, few did more or better for the P&R churches than MGK in his era.
 
I used to be a harsh critic of Kline and then I backed off. When I backed off, some thought I had become a Klinean, which is absurd. Kline gets into trouble--or rather, his followers do--when he makes everything in the OT become "redemptive historical" or "intrusion," which then allows readers to not have to apply Old Testament moral truths.
 
This is overheated rhetoric.
I can see why you might think that brother, but I really mean it, at least as far as the 20th century is concerned.

If we include the 19th century one could argue that Chuck Finney and the like, or the liberals, did far more damage than Kline.

But I really don't see how, in the context of the 20th and 21st century Presbyterian and Reformed Churches, anyone comes close. There are other folks I would disagree with here and there, like Van Til, but I don't think Van Til significantly undermined gospel ministry. There are others who are more heretical, like Karl Barth, but their influence was primarily on the mainline, not on conservative Reformed churches.

The influence of Kline has been to make it nearly impossible for his followers to apply the wisdom of the Old Testament as it concerns ethics and civil government to our era. The church no longer functions as a light on a hill, because we apparently have nothing to say to or about society. All of that was an "intrusion" or a "covenant of works" and does not apply. We have hidden our light under the bushel.

And then there's the whole "ANE context" thing, where endless passages of the bible actually are not saying what any Christian would have assumed they were saying until circa 1990, because we have failed to grasp the "ANE context" or haven't read the epic of Gilgamesh. The world wasn't created in 6 days, the flood didn't happen... in fact, almost nothing scandalous to the modern, rational man happened.

I'm in the OPC, and every time I hear Kline cited the sermon immediately goes off the rails. Without fail. And there is no one else like that, who is so popular and yet so corrosive. And yes, his followers are a complete disaster.

Now, of course you're free to disagree, and think someone else was worse for the OPC, but that is my genuine belief, not empty rhetoric.
 
Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm new to the OPC (about 2 years, ordination recognized since I came from a NAPARC denomination) and have heard that Kline is popular in the OPC, which is why I'm reading the book. So far, I've put a lot more question marks than stars in the margin. I've heard many objections to postmill'ism, but couldn't, and still can't, see how it is at odds with common grace.

It's getting off topic, but I am a bit troubled by the emphasis on redemptive historical I'm sometimes seeing. We had a visiting pastor preach on Psalm 1 and according to him, "that man" was Jesus Christ. There was no mention of the psalm encouraging us to holiness, but only seeing the blessings promised fulfilled in Christ. I (and others in the congregation) have major problems with that.
 
Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm new to the OPC (about 2 years, ordination recognized since I came from a NAPARC denomination) and have heard that Kline is popular in the OPC, which is why I'm reading the book. So far, I've put a lot more question marks than stars in the margin. I've heard many objections to postmill'ism, but couldn't, and still can't, see how it is at odds with common grace.

It's getting off topic, but I am a bit troubled by the emphasis on redemptive historical I'm sometimes seeing. We had a visiting pastor preach on Psalm 1 and according to him, "that man" was Jesus Christ. There was no mention of the psalm encouraging us to holiness, but only seeing the blessings promised fulfilled in Christ. I (and others in the congregation) have major problems with that.
I think it depends on how one defines "common grace". My pastor is a postmillennial in his thinking and he absolutely hates Theonomy, in his defense most of us who don't agree with it just can't get past the unchristian behavior of those guys in Tyler Texas. And the OPC and as I understand it some denomination in Australia.
But if one just simply defines it as God's basic preservation of nature for the building of the Kingdom, then there's nothing inherently contradictory with that and postmillennial views.
That may be what Olinger is referring to Kline's overreaction to Theonomy. Also didn't Richard B Gaffin contribute an essay to the WTS Philadelphia book against Theonomy on the topic of Postmillennialism and Theonomy?
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About the problems in New Zealand, that's off the coast of Australia I believe.
 
My point to the OP is, if Olinger starts with Kline's overreaction to Theonomy in his emphasis on the "COMMON" in common grace, then by that definition of common grace Postmillennialism attacks common grace. But my pastor is a Postmillennialist and he believes in the basic definition I layed out before. So no inherent conflict unless one defines it like Kline.
 
That's not exactly an uncommon view. I don't necessarily claim that it's the right view, but it's so common that I don't think anyone should marvel at it.
My point was that what came across was that was the only meaning of the psalm. I'm pretty sure all of our people understand that Jesus was the perfect man. The Scriptures principally teach what man is to believe about God and what duties God requires of man. A sermon that doesn't do both is only a partial meal, in my opinion. When we preach or exhort I believe we have a duty to make a practical application.
 
Seeing Christ in the Psalms and seeing a call to holiness and moral transformation in the Psalms are not mutually exclusive. After all, if you see Christ without seeing a call to holiness and transformation, then you haven't really seen Christ.
 
You had better not say that in NZ. :)
You know what Mathew, I was hoping you would respond to that! I wasn't sure what the relationship was. But I was seriously laughing to myself when I wrote it thinking "I wonder what Mathew will think of this". Always a pleasure my friend.
Out of curiosity do you agree with my take on Kline and why it seems he was overeating to PM and Theonomy? It was meant as a fair critique of him but taking seriously his own unique concerns.
 
You know what Mathew, I was hoping you would respond to that! I wasn't sure what the relationship was. But I was seriously laughing to myself when I wrote it thinking "I wonder what Mathew will think of this". Always a pleasure my friend.

We have an inside joke in Oz which refers to NZ as one of our islands. It is a way of ribbing our neighbours. Hence the humour of your statement to us on this side of the world. You were confirming what we already knew. :)

Out of curiosity do you agree with my take on Kline and why it seems he was overeating to PM and Theonomy? It was meant as a fair critique of him but taking seriously his own unique concerns.

On the logical mechanics of it, yes. But Kline was an OT scholar. He had his own skill set, especially grounded in the ANE world, to give elaborate exegetical defences for things that do not occur on the surface of the text. The elaborate doctrine of common grace is another example of that. Your analysis hits at the doctrinal import of it, but one has to meet Kline exegetically.
 
We have an inside joke in Oz which refers to NZ as one of our islands. It is a way of ribbing our neighbours. Hence the humour of your statement to us on this side of the world. You were confirming what we already knew. :)
Good to know!
On the logical mechanics of it, yes. But Kline was an OT scholar. He had his own skill set, especially grounded in the ANE world, to give elaborate exegetical defences for things that do not occur on the surface of the text. The elaborate doctrine of common grace is another example of that. Your analysis hits at the doctrinal import of it, but one has to meet Kline exegetically.
I completely agree. I have a complex opinion on Kline and I am usually hesitant to comment on him before I've studied his work for myself.
As you imply he's too complicated in his own world to oversimplified criticism.
 
Kline's system requires a "secularised" common realm. His doctrine of common grace seeks to create a religiously neutral, non-redemptive, non-holy sphere. In that realm God apparently does not impose His law as a covenant Lord and does not require nations to confess Him. There are no promises of covenantal blessing for obedience and God does not judge nations typologically. The whole scheme is designed to justify the status quo secularism of a modern pluralistic society. The state must be religiously neutral. If the state is "common" then it cannot be Christian.
I guess I'm a bit dense but I think I'm beginning to understand. I had to read that several times before it would sink in. There are various views of common grace in reformed circles and some reformed bodies reject it altogether. So what Kline is calling the "biblical doctrine of common grace" is actually his (and/or his friends') own definition and not necessarily what most people understand by common grace? That reminds me of a Jewish fellow worker I once knew who said he rejected Jesus as the Messiah because Jesus didn't meet the criteria established by some rabbi over a thousand years after Jesus lived. It really is no argument at all. You've simply made a gratuitous assertion that defines the objectionable proposal as false. Am I getting close?
 
I guess I'm a bit dense but I think I'm beginning to understand. I had to read that several times before it would sink in. There are various views of common grace in reformed circles and some reformed bodies reject it altogether. So what Kline is calling the "biblical doctrine of common grace" is actually his (and/or his friends') own definition and not necessarily what most people understand by common grace? That reminds me of a Jewish fellow worker I once knew who said he rejected Jesus as the Messiah because Jesus didn't meet the criteria established by some rabbi over a thousand years after Jesus lived. It really is no argument at all. You've simply made a gratuitous assertion that defines the objectionable proposal as false. Am I getting close?

Yes, that is close. In the 17th century "common grace" mostly applied to the "grace" that came through God's ordinances to people in common in the visible church. That has undergone developments in terms of other common benefits enjoyed by mankind, especially in Dutch Reformed circles, and as those circles came to influence Presbyterians there were broader and broader formulations of the idea. Then, with Kline, the broader definition came to be connected with the Noahic covenant, whereas traditionally the Noahic covenant was seen as being part of the covenant of grace. After Kline his disciples have extended this into a full orbed part of their "two kingdom" paradigm.

This is the way doctrine develops over time. An idea broadens its scope of influence to take in more and more of the system of theology. It is also the way false doctrine develops since that single idea can also take on a significance it does not have in holy Scripture.
 
It's getting off topic, but I am a bit troubled by the emphasis on redemptive historical I'm sometimes seeing. We had a visiting pastor preach on Psalm 1 and according to him, "that man" was Jesus Christ. There was no mention of the psalm encouraging us to holiness, but only seeing the blessings promised fulfilled in Christ. I (and others in the congregation) have major problems with that.
If you look in Psalm 1 for a promise of blessing as reward for holiness, you must also recognize in it the promised curses for wickedness - being scattered by the winds of God's wrath, being unable to stand before the throne of judgment or in the congregation of the righteous, and perishing in the way.

Apart from the perfect obedience of Christ imputed to us, Psalm 1 holds nothing for us but the curse incurred by our sin. It isn't, as romanists would say, that Christ's sacrifice wiped the slate so that we can begin storing up blessings by our holy living. In as much as our living still falls short of perfect holiness, it is unholy living and wicked and deserving of cursing, not blessing.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for holiness, but all the blessings promised in Psalm 1 are ours only because it was Christ who, unlike us, did not walk astray, did not stand in the way of sinners, did not sit in the scorner's chair, and who delighted in God's law and meditated upon it day and night. Shouldn't our encouragements to holiness then be that Christ has loved us and blessed us already with his blessings, that he has saved us from our just cursings, and that we love him?
 
Postmillennialism holds that nations are morally accountable to God and must obey God's law. The gospel transforms cultures, which means there is a legitimate sense in which Christ's kingdom advances in history. The Great Commission concerns the nations. Christianity has a voice in secular, public affairs. Religion is not simply a private matter. Christ's kingship is not restricted to the church.
This might be a can of worms but in my opinion you don't have to hold postmillennial eschatology to believe any of that. Postmillennial eschatology would seem to imply those things necessarily in a way maybe amillennialism/premillennialism don't but I agree with you, and not with Kline, about Christianity in the public sphere and I do not think the Bible indicates we have a literal future millennial reign to look forward to.
 
I'm currently reading Olinger's book "Christ and His Bride-Church" which is an accumulation of Kline's views on eschatology and am having trouble understanding the following quote (the outer quote is Olinger, and the inner quote is Kline).

I'm afraid I don't get it. Is he saying that believing obedience to God will tend to result in both material and spiritual blessings is incompatible with the doctrine of common grace? If so, how so? If not, what is he saying?
I think he means that it is an over-evaluation of common grace to expect it to enable nations of unregenerate reprobates to be conformed to Christ in a Christian golden age. In other words, it's not that the doctrine of common grace makes those things impossible, but that common grace alone is insufficient to make them possible.
 
I think it's a brilliant quote. The point, as I understand the quote, is this, in a syllogism:
1. Common grace is God's general benevolence to man outside redemptive covenants, and has no stipulations tied by oath to blessings and curses.
2. The Old Covenant blessings of wealth and prosperity in the land, are given by oath on condition of the peoples' faithfulness to the terms of the covenant (e.g. Deut 28).
3. The messianic kingdom prophecies envision a return to old covenant blessings.
4. Therefore it is inconsistent to imagine the millennium as an ordinary state [Messianic] kingdom enjoying old-covenant blessings disconnected to old covenant faithfulness.

I think it's a sound argument syllogistically, (also keeping in mind Kline's view of the Old Covenant.)
 
I think he means that it is an over-evaluation of common grace to expect it to enable nations of unregenerate reprobates to be conformed to Christ in a Christian golden age. In other words, it's not that the doctrine of common grace makes those things impossible, but that common grace alone is insufficient to make them possible.
I have never read or heard of a postmill'ist that believes unregenerate reprobates will be conformed to Christ. If I understand postmill'ism correctly, it is the expectation that by the power of the Holy Spirit the Gospel will continue to spread throughout the earth to the point that most people in many nations will become believers which will bring about a Christian golden age. Something like Christendom on a worldwide scale. I'm not arguing for or against that view. But if that is what Kline meant, it looks like a straw man to me.

Edit: Just as a caveat, there is a lot of postmill stuff I haven't read, so perhaps there are some that believe that. But I certainly didn't see anything like that in Rushdoony who I think is whom Kline was primarily concerned about.
 
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I have never read or heard of a postmill'ist that believes unregenerate reprobates will be conformed to Christ. If I understand postmill'ism correctly, it is the expectation that by the power of the Holy Spirit the Gospel will continue to spread throughout the earth to the point that most people in many nations will become believers which will bring about a Christian golden age. Something like Christendom on a worldwide scale. I'm not arguing for or against that view. But if that is what Kline meant, it looks like a straw man to me.

Edit: Just as a caveat, there is a lot of postmill stuff I haven't read, so perhaps there are some that believe that. But I certainly didn't see anything like that in Rushdoony who I think is whom Kline was primarily concerned about.
Considering that Rushdoony didn't make common grace a significant part of his theory and took major exception to the very concept, I suspect Kline's argument was more directed toward Gary North and his book "Dominion and Common Grace". From what I understand, North argued that common grace would be instrumental in restraining evil in the world more and more while Christians seize dominion over society first in a worldly sense and then in a spiritual sense.
 
This might be a can of worms but in my opinion you don't have to hold postmillennial eschatology to believe any of that. Postmillennial eschatology would seem to imply those things necessarily in a way maybe amillennialism/premillennialism don't but I agree with you, and not with Kline, about Christianity in the public sphere and I do not think the Bible indicates we have a literal future millennial reign to look forward to.

This would only mean that Kline also undermines those other views since he attacks them as something held in common. But I would be interested to know what the advance of the kingdom in history looks like in those other views and how that works in nations.
 
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