Can faith die?

[Scott Shahan]

Is there any truth to this statement;

Men can lose faith, hence why the book of James talks about dead faith. Faith that is not nourished with the means of grace (Word and Sacraments) will die on the vine, because the Holy Spirit has promised to use only these as means.

 

[Bandguy]

The only faith that is dead is that which never had any life. James is not saying that faith can die. James is pointing out that faith that produces no works is no faith at all. The rest of that passage goes on to say that our works are the evidence of faith. Works do not create nor sustain faith. That is the work of God in the lives of the elect. Works are the result of faith.

 

[alwaysreforming]

Is there any truth to this statement;

Men can lose faith, hence why the book of James talks about dead faith. Faith that is not nourished with the means of grace (Word and Sacraments) will die on the vine, because the Holy Spirit has promised to use only these as means.

Hey, Scott,
What Scripture references are used to substantiate the claim that "the Holy Spirit has promised to use only these as means."

This is something the White Horse Inn guys say, and I've never been really sure just what they're basing it on.
I'd love to be able to compile all the relevent verses.

Thanks.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Hey, Scott,
What Scripture references are used to substantiate the claim that "the Holy Spirit has promised to use only these as means."

This is something the White Horse Inn guys say, and I've never been really sure just what they're basing it on.
I'd love to be able to compile all the relevent verses.

Thanks.

I have this lutheran throwing this stuff at me and thought that I would post this and see what people here had to say about this statement. Your question is a good one that I would like to have answered.

 

[BobVigneault]

The word 'faith', in scripture, is always defined by it's context and so you must define what you mean by faith. If you mean, 'saving faith' - that vital connectiveness with Jesus Christ by which his grace is transmitted to us then the answer is NO. To say yes would violate the doctrine of the preservation of the saints.

What I find in practice is this. When someone tells me that they have lost their faith they are really saying, "God has failed me". From there it is very easy to demonstrate that it wasn't God who failed but the inferior image that they were SOLD has failed.

They've been told that if you become a Christian you'll be happier and God won't let you suffer. You'll be a better wife, husband, employee, student, golfer, football player. When those things don't come true they 'lose their faith'. I'm dealing with two people right now who have told me they lost their faith but they are victims of preachers hawking Christ.

 

[Scott]

There are two kinds of faith: (1) saving faith and (2) temporary faith. Saving faith cannot die. It is nourished by the the Word, sacraments and prayer. If one is elect he will use these things to keep his faith alive. Temporary faith can die.

In his commentary on Matthew 13's parable of the sower, Calvin says this about the seed that takes sprout but has no root (unlike the seed in the good soil):

This class differs from the former; for temporary faith, being a sort of vegetation of the seed, promises at first some fruit; but their hearts are not so properly and thoroughly subdued, as to have the softness necessary for their continued nourishment. We see too many of this class in our own day, who eagerly embrace the Gospel, and shortly afterwards fall off; for they have not the lively affection that is necessary to give them firmness and perseverance. Let every one then examine himself thoroughly, that the alacrity which gives out a bright flame may not quickly go out, as the saying is, like a fire of tow; for if the word does not fully penetrate the whole heart, and strike its roots deep, faith will want the supply of moisture that is necessary for perseverance. Great commendation is due, no doubt, to that promptitude, which receives the word of God with joy, and without delay, as soon as it is published; but let us learn, that nothing has been done, till faith acquires true firmness, that it may not wither in the first blade.

He make similar statements in his commentary on Hebrews 6. The Westminster Confession describes people of temporary faith this way in Ch. 10.4: "Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved. . .”

 

[Chris]

I have this lutheran throwing this stuff at me

When I read your original post my mind immediately went back to the thread you started yesterday.

For what it's worth, I have a lot of respect for the lutherans, though I (obviously) disagree with them on a number of things. It's good that you can entertain their ideas - as long as you keep digging until you find the truth behind (or in opposition to) them. However, don't ever feel obligated to listen to their sales pitch. That goes for most anyone you encounter.

 

[Poimen]

to Scott R.

Contra the Arminians, the Canons of Dordrecht (5.RE 7) note that

Error: The faith of those who believe for a time does not differ from justifying and saving faith except with respect to its duration.

Refutation: In Mt 13:20-23 and Luke 8:13-15 Christ Himself clearly indicates, besides this duration, a threefold difference between those who believe only for a time and true believers. He declares that the former receive the seed on rocky ground, but the latter in good soil, or in a good heart; that the former are without root, but the latter have a firm root; and that the former are without fruit, but the latter bring forth fruit in varying measure, constantly and steadfastly.

Add to that Matthew 15:13 where our Lord teaches (in the midst of the Pharisees stumbling and unbelief) that "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up" that one must be given grace to truly believe.

See also:

John 2:23-25

Here some believe in Jesus because of his miracles but he does not commit (believe - the same word in the Greek) to them because he knows the hearts of men.

John 8:30-47

In verse 31 we read that some of the Jews believed in Jesus but, again, he does not commit Himself to them. He agrees that they are Abraham's descendants (vs. 37) but are still slaves to sin (vs. 34), their father is not God but the devil (vs. 44) and "The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (vs. 47) Clearly they believed in Jesus for a time but wanted nothing to do with Him as a person and their was no change in their spiritual (regeneration) or judicial (adoption) state.

Comparing this to Romans 4 & Galatians 3 where Paul tells us that Abraham believed God, these Jews have clearly not been justified since they are still in their sins (vs. 24) since even though they put their faith in him (vs. 31) they did not believe He was who He claimed to be (vs. 24 cf. vss. 58-59)

So, in conclusion, the Reformed have distinguished between different types of faith: 1) miraculous 2) temporary and 3) saving. Only the last faith puts one in saving union with Christ and saves unto eternity (John 3:16, 36) Any other faith just withers on the vine and will be like chaff, burnt away on the day of judgment. Thus it could and can be properly said that some 'lose their faith.' Yet those who claim 'Lord, Lord' will be told that Christ NEVER knew them (Matthew 7:23) for they never believed from the heart and were saved, but only professed (pretended) by their mouth (Romans 10:8-10) They lost a temporary faith that proceeded from the mind but not from their heart.

This point, of course, then helps us to properly understand James 2:14ff. Though I do not believe that James focus on justification is identical to Paul's concerns (saved by faith not by works) it is clear that James too is concerned with professors of religion who claim to believe but really do not.

James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:18 "But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works."

Saying so doesn't make it so. It is clear that the person of whom James speaks is not someone who has (living) faith or ever had (living) faith because they they only claimed it but never believed it.

 

[Civbert]

There are two kinds of faith: (1) saving faith and (2) temporary faith.

There is no such thing as "temporary faith" in Jesus or the Gospel.

The Westminster Confession describes people of temporary faith this way in Ch. 10.4: "Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved. . .”

Notice they "never truly come to Christ." They never had faith in Christ to begin with. So what you call "temporary faith" is no kind of faith at all as far as salvation is concerned. No one has a "temporary faith" in Christ.

 

[VictorBravo]

There is no such thing as "temporary faith" in Jesus or the Gospel.



Notice they "never truly come to Christ." They never had faith in Christ to begin with. So what you call "temporary faith" is no kind of faith at all as far as salvation is concerned. No one has a "temporary faith" in Christ.

I agree the terminology is imprecise, but we do need to acknowledge the cases of those receiving the Word gladly, and then withering. It looks like faith from the outside.

 

[DTK]

Berkhof points out the following distinctions (or kinds) of faith in Reformed theology, Historical Faith, Miraculous Faith, Temporal Faith and True Saving Faith. See L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1941), pp. 501-503. Cf. also Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, trans. George Musgrave Giger, ed. James T. Dennison, Jr., Vol. 2, (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1997), XV.vii.4-7, p. 559-560, who likewise cites those four distinctions. For instance, Turretin, as well as Berkhof, point out that “there is historical faith in devils, and many unbelievers who still are destitute of temporary and justifying faith (Jam. 2:19), as they are also destitute of the faith of miracles...” In his Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms: Drawn Principally from Protestant Scholastic Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1985), p. 115, Richard A. Muller also points out these four distinctions, and adds two more, fides legalis (legal faith) and fides evangelica (evangelical faith).

DTK

 

[Poimen]

There is no such thing as "temporary faith" in Jesus or the Gospel.

Notice they "never truly come to Christ." They never had faith in Christ to begin with. So what you call "temporary faith" is no kind of faith at all as far as salvation is concerned. No one has a "temporary faith" in Christ.

?

I noted above:

In verse 31 we read that some of the Jews believed in Jesus but, again, he does not commit Himself to them. He agrees that they are Abraham's descendants (vs. 37) but are still slaves to sin (vs. 34), their father is not God but the devil (vs. 44) and "The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (vs. 47) Clearly they believed in Jesus for a time but wanted nothing to do with Him as a person and their was no change in their spiritual (regeneration) or judicial (adoption) state.

How is that not temporary faith?

BTW, never coming 'truly to Christ' (as per the WCF) does not rule out temporary faith. Certainly they were never saved but that does not mean they could not believe in Christ for a time (as per the argument above).

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

I would admit there is indeed such a thing as a "temporary faith," but as such it is a non-saving unregenerate faith.

As noted in the Dort Refutation (5.RE 7), there is an "essential" difference in kind. The Arminians saw no essential difference, only a difference in duration, hence one can lose his salvation. It appears that the Lutheran sees no essential difference either -- the unregenerate exercises "saving faith" that must be nurtured and confirmed by the sacraments lest it die (which I suppose means salvation can be lost).

True saving faith may indeed be nurtured and confirmed by the Word of God, but according to the P in TULIP, it will never die.

 

[Scott]

Daniel and David K: Thanks, those are helpful references. I am going to make note of them.

 

[Scott]

There is no such thing as "temporary faith" in Jesus or the Gospel

.
Why not?

 

[Chris]

.
Why not?

Time out!

Maybe we should define terms (such as 'faith') first....

 

[Scott]

Time out!

Maybe we should define terms (such as 'faith') first....

Good idea and I suspect it is likely that most of us agree in substance with the ideas here, even if some hesitate in calling something "temporary faith." Anyway, I would define it along the lines of Calvin in the quote above.

 

[Chris]

Good idea and I suspect it is likely that most of us agree in substance with the ideas here, even if some hesitate in calling something "temporary faith." Anyway, I would define it along the lines of Calvin in the quote above.

I'd agree with that.