Candles and RPW

[RamistThomist]

I was just thinking about this--not necessarily endorsing it or giving reasons for it. No doubt Anglicans, Catholics, and EOs have used reasons simiar to it.

In Revelation, Jesus associates and identifies candles (lampstands, actually) and churches. While their is not a command to light candles in churches, it is not a foreign idea either. But then again, there isn't really a command to baptize infants either (yes, I still hold to paedo).

I only bring this up because if I were a liturgical guy, or if I were talking to liturgical guys, I probably should expect something like this.

 

[Davidius]

I was just thinking about this--not necessarily endorsing it or giving reasons for it. No doubt Anglicans, Catholics, and EOs have used reasons simiar to it.

In Revelation, Jesus associates and identifies candles (lampstands, actually) and churches. While their is not a command to light candles in churches, it is not a foreign idea either. But then again, there isn't really a command to baptize infants either (yes, I still hold to paedo).

I only bring this up because if I were a liturgical guy, or if I were talking to liturgical guys, I probably should expect something like this.

Wouldn't it depend on the function of the candles? If we were to say "no" even if the candles were only being used for light, then what would that mean about having electric lights?

 

[Davidius]

Was my response bad?

 

[tcalbrecht]

Wouldn't it depend on the function of the candles? If we were to say "no" even if the candles were only being used for light, then what would that mean about having electric lights?

If the candles were used purely for lighting, then they would be a circumstance of worship and permissible. If they are used for some other reason, e.g., aesthetics, then they become an element of worship and are forbidden

 

[Davidius]

Wouldn't it depend on the function of the candles? If we were to say "no" even if the candles were only being used for light, then what would that mean about having electric lights?

If the candles were used purely for lighting, then they would be a circumstance of worship and permissible. If they are used for some other reason, e.g., aesthetics, then they become an element of worship and are forbidden

What do you mean by "aesthetics"? Since we don't purposefully make the insides of our buildings ugly, doesn't that mean that everything has an aesthetic quality?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

We can have pretty lighting; we can't invest them with sacred and significant meaning, to paraphrase Gillespie I think.

Wouldn't it depend on the function of the candles? If we were to say "no" even if the candles were only being used for light, then what would that mean about having electric lights?

If the candles were used purely for lighting, then they would be a circumstance of worship and permissible. If they are used for some other reason, e.g., aesthetics, then they become an element of worship and are forbidden

What do you mean by "aesthetics"? Since we don't purposefully make the insides of our buildings ugly, doesn't that mean that everything has an aesthetic quality?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

In a previous thread concerning candles and the RPW, I noted:

Yes, there is a difference between using candles for illumination (circumstance) and lighting them in a worship service on an Advent wreath or in homage to the Virgin Mary (element). Just as there is a difference between the use of a pitch pipe (circumstance) and instrumental musical accompaniment (element).

John Calvin, Commentary on the Psalms, Vol. 1, p. 539:

I have no doubt that playing upon cymbals, touching the harp and the viol, and all that kind of music, which is so frequently mentioned in the Psalms, was a part of the education; that is to say, the puerile [i.e., immature] instruction of the law: I speak of the stated service of the temple. For even now, if believers choose to cheer themselves with musical instruments, they should, I think, make it their object not to dissever their cheerfulness from the praises of God. But when they frequent their sacred assemblies, musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed this, as well as many other things from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostle is far more pleasing to him.

 

[SRoper]

If the candles were used purely for lighting, then they would be a circumstance of worship and permissible. If they are used for some other reason, e.g., aesthetics, then they become an element of worship and are forbidden

I disagree. Aesthetics is a perfectly good justification for using candles.

 

[tcalbrecht]

If the candles were used purely for lighting, then they would be a circumstance of worship and permissible. If they are used for some other reason, e.g., aesthetics, then they become an element of worship and are forbidden

I disagree. Aesthetics is a perfectly good justification for using candles.

Not according to the WCF.

But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.

If it's not a circumstance, then you need a command from God for introducing something into His worship. Something as subjective as aesthetics as no place there, since it involves will-worship.

You can search WCF Chapter 21 and you will see nothing there akin to aesthetics.

 

[k.seymore]

You can search WCF Chapter 21 and you will see nothing there akin to aesthetics.

One reason that I don't wear a suit and tie to church. I don't on any other day, why would I do it on the Lord's day? I wouldn't be doing it for God since he didn't ask, and if I thought I was doing it for others on the Lord's Day then that would of course be a problem as well. I'm not saying I trying to force the RPW on suit wearing heathens, but I do admit being guilty of turning away and shaking my head from time to time. Ok, maybe I actually just don't like suits. But I still question this religious practice in light of the RPW.

 

[AV1611]

I was just thinking about this--not necessarily endorsing it or giving reasons for it. No doubt Anglicans, Catholics, and EOs have used reasons simiar to it.

In Revelation, Jesus associates and identifies candles (lampstands, actually) and churches. While their is not a command to light candles in churches, it is not a foreign idea either. But then again, there isn't really a command to baptize infants either (yes, I still hold to paedo).

I only bring this up because if I were a liturgical guy, or if I were talking to liturgical guys, I probably should expect something like this.

As an Anglican you can imagine that I have had to come up with an answer for my Anglo-Catholic "brethren"...it didn't take long...surely we have electricity nowadays for lighting

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

You can search WCF Chapter 21 and you will see nothing there akin to aesthetics.

One reason that I don't wear a suit and tie to church. I don't on any other day, why would I do it on the Lord's day? I wouldn't be doing it for God since he didn't ask, and if I thought I was doing it for others on the Lord's Day then that would of course be a problem as well. I'm not saying I trying to force the RPW on suit wearing heathens, but I do admit being guilty of turning away and shaking my head from time to time. Ok, maybe I actually just don't like suits. But I still question this religious practice in light of the RPW.

Yes in Northern Ireland we have a lot of people who think that a man must wear a suit to church on a Sunday; no matter how many times you point to James 2 they still persist in enforcing this upon others. I have known people who will not go to churches simply because of the dress code.

 

[SRoper]

If the candles were used purely for lighting, then they would be a circumstance of worship and permissible. If they are used for some other reason, e.g., aesthetics, then they become an element of worship and are forbidden

I disagree. Aesthetics is a perfectly good justification for using candles.

Not according to the WCF.

But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.

If it's not a circumstance, then you need a command from God for introducing something into His worship. Something as subjective as aesthetics as no place there, since it involves will-worship.

You can search WCF Chapter 21 and you will see nothing there akin to aesthetics.

Aesthetics is a circumstance. You need to assemble somewhere, so the question necessarily arises as to what the place you assemble looks like. That's a question of aesthetics.

 

[etexas]

I disagree. Aesthetics is a perfectly good justification for using candles.

Not according to the WCF.

But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.

If it's not a circumstance, then you need a command from God for introducing something into His worship. Something as subjective as aesthetics as no place there, since it involves will-worship.

You can search WCF Chapter 21 and you will see nothing there akin to aesthetics.

Aesthetics is a circumstance. You need to assemble somewhere, so the question necessarily arises as to what the place you assemble looks like. That's a question of aesthetics.

Good point! Would one call for peole to meet in a pigsty just to make a point...the point being what? I am in a sty...what a good boy am I.

 

[LadyFlynt]

You can search WCF Chapter 21 and you will see nothing there akin to aesthetics.

One reason that I don't wear a suit and tie to church. I don't on any other day, why would I do it on the Lord's day? I wouldn't be doing it for God since he didn't ask, and if I thought I was doing it for others on the Lord's Day then that would of course be a problem as well. I'm not saying I trying to force the RPW on suit wearing heathens, but I do admit being guilty of turning away and shaking my head from time to time. Ok, maybe I actually just don't like suits. But I still question this religious practice in light of the RPW.

Yes in Northern Ireland we have a lot of people who think that a man must wear a suit to church on a Sunday; no matter how many times you point to James 2 they still persist in enforcing this upon others. I have known people who will not go to churches simply because of the dress code.

My poor husband...he's part Irish, doesn't own a suit, and he would attend anyway regardless...LOL!

 

[LadyFlynt]

I disagree. Aesthetics is a perfectly good justification for using candles.

Not according to the WCF.

But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.

If it's not a circumstance, then you need a command from God for introducing something into His worship. Something as subjective as aesthetics as no place there, since it involves will-worship.

You can search WCF Chapter 21 and you will see nothing there akin to aesthetics.

Aesthetics is a circumstance. You need to assemble somewhere, so the question necessarily arises as to what the place you assemble looks like. That's a question of aesthetics.

No, it is not required that we decorate. A plain building, plain pews, and lights are all that is needed. I have been in MANY intentionally undecorated churches. I have actually been sickened by the decorating of the church. It distracts the worshipers, is a waste of monies, time, and concern...and many focus on that more than that which we are called to be focused on. Plain (and I don't mean anabaptist...though many of them are prime example) churches lend to complete focus on worship and it's intents and purposes.

 

[Augusta]

I think the principle set forth in 1 Tim. is fitting for the church too. Adorn it with modest apparel and with good works.

1 Timothy
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Aesthetics is a circumstance. You need to assemble somewhere, so the question necessarily arises as to what the place you assemble looks like. That's a question of aesthetics.

What difference does what the place where we worship looks like? Was that a concern of the apostles for gospel era worship?

The circumstances of worship are those things which are necessary so that pure worship may take place according to the Word of God. The time and place of worship are circumstances. Having a place to sit, lighting in order to see and read the Word of God, a platform or pulpit from with to preach the Word, etc are all circumstances.

It might be argued that having comfortable seats is more conducive to pure worship than, say, hard wooden benches with no backs or sitting on the floor or standing. That’s not a matter of aesthetics, in my opinion.

Candles do not seem to fall into any necessary category of circumstance unless candles are the only available form of lighting.

In most modern churches this is not the case. Candles serve no circumstance. They are there because they look nice or are “traditional” in certain settings. I sincerely doubt that the authors of the Westminster Standards would have considered such accoutrements to be appropriate in a Reformed worship setting.

 

[Coram Deo]

At the rate Electrical prices go up currently, candles might serve a circumstance for lighting. If the price of electricity goes to high to afford.....


Just my

 

[Calvibaptist]

The circumstances of worship are those things which are necessary so that pure worship may take place according to the Word of God.

I'm a little confused. Forgive me because I am fairly new to the RPW. But why is a circumstance considered "necessary?" This doesn't seem to be what the Westminster Confession says. The only place that I found that it mentions "circumstances of worship" is in the first chapter:

there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

It doesn't say anything about these circumstances being "necessary." I don't see how any kind of light is necessary for the worship of God. Do the churches in Muslim countries that have to meet in the dark without any light at all not have true worship? If you are going to have lights, should they necessarily be ugly lights? Why not have candles that make the location look nicer? Sure, you can worship in a bare building with wooden pews and bare light bulbs, but are those conditions necessary for true worship? Or can you have acceptable true biblical worship in a beautiful building with comfortable pews, beautiful chandeliers and multiple candles (used primarily for ambiance)?

 

[LadyFlynt]

The difference is that chandeliers or whatever is simply for light (the elaboration of such can be up for debate) vs., as you stated, the candles "for ambiance". There is no point to the candles. Candle-lighting is typically an added "ceremony" under such circumstance, therefore strictly against the RPW.

Versus having candles for the main purpose of light...one would light them before even expecting the majority of worshipers and not part of the service.

 

[SRoper]

What difference does what the place where we worship looks like? Was that a concern of the apostles for gospel era worship?

It doesn't make a difference which is my point. It is a thing indifferent so we can adorn our churches according to what is prudent.

The circumstances of worship are those things which are necessary so that pure worship may take place according to the Word of God. The time and place of worship are circumstances. Having a place to sit, lighting in order to see and read the Word of God, a platform or pulpit from with to preach the Word, etc are all circumstances.

I disagree with your definition of circumstance. The WCF says, "there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed." Aesthetics is something common to human society. You have to choose how to adorn your meeting place whether it is a home, an office, a judge's chambers, or a church. If you choose plain white walls you still are making an aesthetic choice. Using your definition I disagree that having a place to sit is "necessary so that pure worship may take place." The Eastern churches get along just fine without places to sit. Pulpits are also unnecessary, but many reformed churches choose to have them because they communicate something about the Word of God. That is certainly an aesthetic decision.

Candles do not seem to fall into any necessary category of circumstance unless candles are the only available form of lighting.

Again you add "necessary category" (without warrant, I believe). Candles are commonly used in modern settings outside the church because they look nice. I don't see any reason why the meeting place of the church can't look nice either.

In most modern churches this is not the case. Candles serve no circumstance. They are there because they look nice or are “traditional” in certain settings. I sincerely doubt that the authors of the Westminster Standards would have considered such accoutrements to be appropriate in a Reformed worship setting.

Maybe they wouldn't have, but this intention is not clear in the Standards themselves.

 

[LadyFlynt]

which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence,

Key factor here. Extravagance is not ordered by the light of nature (nature deeming that which is necessary), nor is it of Christian prudence.

 

[SRoper]

No, it is not required that we decorate. A plain building, plain pews, and lights are all that is needed. I have been in MANY intentionally undecorated churches. I have actually been sickened by the decorating of the church. It distracts the worshipers, is a waste of monies, time, and concern...and many focus on that more than that which we are called to be focused on. Plain (and I don't mean anabaptist...though many of them are prime example) churches lend to complete focus on worship and it's intents and purposes.

So you have made the decision that plain decorating is the most prudent, and you give many good reasons for choosing plain decoration. That's fine, but I don't think that decision necessarily follows from Scripture.

 

[LadyFlynt]

No, it is not required that we decorate. A plain building, plain pews, and lights are all that is needed. I have been in MANY intentionally undecorated churches. I have actually been sickened by the decorating of the church. It distracts the worshipers, is a waste of monies, time, and concern...and many focus on that more than that which we are called to be focused on. Plain (and I don't mean anabaptist...though many of them are prime example) churches lend to complete focus on worship and it's intents and purposes.

So you have made the decision that plain decorating is the most prudent, and you give many good reasons for choosing plain decoration. That's fine, but I don't think that decision necessarily follows from Scripture.

The point...I'm neither adding to what scripture calls for either. However, it does follow Scripture in being good stewards and other portions of principle as Tracy mentioned above.

 

[SRoper]

Key factor here. Extravagance is not ordered by the light of nature (nature deeming that which is necessary), nor is it of Christian prudence.

No doubt, but no one is calling for extravagance in decoration.

If you were invited to someone's house and they had two candles on the dinner table, would you immediately think, "what an ostentatious display!"?

 

[LadyFlynt]

You cannot compare a place set aside simply for worship with other common areas of life. The RPW is the Regulative Principle of Worship...specifically public worship. Not the Regulative Principle of the Home and Other Common Areas of Life.

 

[Davidius]

You cannot compare a place set aside simply for worship with other common areas of life.

Sure you can. There's nothing holy about the building. It's just a building, like your house.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Apparently, ya'll have missed this quote or you have chosen to ignore it.

There is no point to the candles. Candle-lighting is typically an added "ceremony" under such circumstance, therefore strictly against the RPW.

Versus having candles for the main purpose of light...one would light them before even expecting the majority of worshipers and not part of the service.

I cannot continue any longer tonight, gents. It's way past for me and and I meant to head to bed 10mins ago when the conversation suddenly picked up.

 

[Calvibaptist]

The difference is that chandeliers or whatever is simply for light (the elaboration of such can be up for debate) vs., as you stated, the candles "for ambiance". There is no point to the candles. Candle-lighting is typically an added "ceremony" under such circumstance, therefore strictly against the RPW.

Versus having candles for the main purpose of light...one would light them before even expecting the majority of worshipers and not part of the service.

I agree that using candles as an integral (or any other) part of worship is contrary to the RPW. But the reason is that they have crossed from the category of circumstance into the category of element. I believe that the elements of worship are very strictly ordered, whereas the circumstances of worship will change based on cultural norms.

I have seen a very simply-adorned church that had both lights and candles. Neither were used in the worship as a part of worship. They were there as circumstances just like the padding on the pews or the carpet on the floor (or the walls and roof on the building). They neither offended the "light of nature" nor the Word of God.