Saving Faith
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toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
True desire to know Christ for the right reasons is given as the gift of God, through the Spirit. I don't think there can be any doubt about that. Nobody is sent to hell against their will.
However, there are lots of reasons one might want to know Christ as his/her Savior but do so in a way that is self-serving or merely "hell-insurance". Most people don't want to go to hell if you ask them - and I suspect that
many might profess some sort of desire to know Christ (I can think of one person who is in the family of some folks at our church who I think is probably under this kind of a misapprehension). Such folks could be said to "want" or "desire" to know Christ - but their desire, their aimed-for end, is misplaced... and thus they'll not truly know him in a saving way.
sotzo
Puritan Board Sophomore
You mean, they don't want redemption from sin necessarily...they want to live how they please and then say they knew Jesus to stay out of hell? Is that the kind of non-salvifiv desire to which you refer?
Southern Presbyterian
Puritan Board Doctor
This passage would seem to indicate that some will be self-deceived in this manner.
[bible]Matthew 7:21-23[/bible]
[bible]Matthew 7:21-23[/bible]
sotzo
Puritan Board Sophomore
Then can there really be any such thing as assurance of faith? I John gives evidences of saving faith, but my real question in the OP is that how can we really know we are His if there is the possibility we are being self-deceived?
Larry Hughes
Inactive User
No, one is not saved by the right desires, this confuses means with ends…cause and effect. In fact when God comes to a man, dead in sins and trespasses, we might add utterly and totally dead, He finds NO faith or repentance whatsoever. He speaks the Gospel and it is a “Let there be light” or “Lazarus come forth”. One is saved by Christ’s work alone, trusting in that is the breathing and heartbeat of the elect.
Secondly, one is no more saved by being self-serving than by pretending to be unself-serving, which is in fact self serving. No one can produce an unselfserving first cause. In fact man fallen cannot be anything but utterly self serving, either as an open sinner or pious false saint.
Do not let your ‘desires’ become a new work for you. Look and trust in Christ alone, nakedly, and do not look at your looking (faith in faith or trust in trust) which is to say stop not trusting in Him, which is to say don’t try to trust or not not trust in Him but LOOK to Him alone and then suddenly you are doing it. The life comes from His end not yours.
Do not look to election, the Father is to high for us. Look to Christ who is the revelation of the revealed God perfectly, listen to Him. One’s election is not found in election but in the Cross of Christ alone. If election was to be sought some other way then Christ need not be incarnate nor would we have need of the sacraments. To put it yet another way, the elect are not fixing their gaze upon election but Christ crucified and risen…all other “looking” is utterly vain and no peace (a fruit of the Spirit) can be had.
Blessings,
Larry
Secondly, one is no more saved by being self-serving than by pretending to be unself-serving, which is in fact self serving. No one can produce an unselfserving first cause. In fact man fallen cannot be anything but utterly self serving, either as an open sinner or pious false saint.
Do not let your ‘desires’ become a new work for you. Look and trust in Christ alone, nakedly, and do not look at your looking (faith in faith or trust in trust) which is to say stop not trusting in Him, which is to say don’t try to trust or not not trust in Him but LOOK to Him alone and then suddenly you are doing it. The life comes from His end not yours.
Do not look to election, the Father is to high for us. Look to Christ who is the revelation of the revealed God perfectly, listen to Him. One’s election is not found in election but in the Cross of Christ alone. If election was to be sought some other way then Christ need not be incarnate nor would we have need of the sacraments. To put it yet another way, the elect are not fixing their gaze upon election but Christ crucified and risen…all other “looking” is utterly vain and no peace (a fruit of the Spirit) can be had.
Blessings,
Larry
Southern Presbyterian
Puritan Board Doctor
I would also look to Scripture passages such as Galatians 5:16-25. The fruits of The Spirit are not produced in the lives of unbleivers. Remeber, Jesus said that "the tree will be known by it's fruit."
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
I gather my intent was confused in the reading. I hope you didn't take my meaning to be that one can "desire" onsself into the kingdom. My point was to answer the original question - which is to say that there are some who say "Lord, Lord" who claim a desire to know Christ, and even think they do, who are not of the elect, and will be disclaimed by Christ.
Most certainly salvation is fully of the Lord, and of Him alone, but there is a distinction between "true" and "false" faith, which is what the original question was getting at.
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Yes. The parable of the soils speaks of this. They do not endure to the end. There are many of people as this. THe wheat and the tares also...
sotzo
Puritan Board Sophomore
So how is assurance possible if we could simply be self-deceived our entire lives?
If one truly wants to know Christ as Saviour, does not the Saviour save?
Assurance is that subjective sense of confidence. From where does it arise? If from oneself, it is false. If he is trusting in the Word of God, something objective, that same Word promises him "peace" with God through the Lord Jesus Christ, strength through the means of grace to be sustained, the eternal love of God which cannot be taken away, the abiding presence of the Spirit (that also witnesses), the perils of sinful indulgence of the flesh, and the possibility of false-faith which is really self-satisfaction.
Self-deceived people do not really believe all that God has to say. They don't grow in grace. They do not, in fact, bear fruit unto righteousness. They sometimes grow up in the field (as tares) or alongside it (among the weeds).
If our assurance ebbs and flows, that is a more sure sign of its reality than its falsity. It gives evidence that we are living in between the ages--but we are ALIVE. We feel the effects of sin. Is it not a worrisome sign, if one has few incentives to self-examination, just invincible confidence (that is never shaken) of God's love? How shall one know the difference between that, and a faith of brass, stiff and lifeless?
Assurance is possible because the Word says it is. It is possible because it is a product of our relationship with God, and not some "element" of our lives, or pulsating corner of our hearts that we have "access" to. We have assurance of God's love after the same fashion that we have assurance of the love of our mothers, or of our spouses--by our mutual words and actions.
But what if there is deception? In human relations, that is possible. But I'm not responsible for the other person's deception, only my own, if I am the liar. Now. can God be a liar? Not at all, if we are to believe the Bible, if we are to believe him. Can I be a liar in that relationship? Yes. And if I am, only God can show me my falseness, if I refuse to question myself.
Self-deceived people do not really believe all that God has to say. They don't grow in grace. They do not, in fact, bear fruit unto righteousness. They sometimes grow up in the field (as tares) or alongside it (among the weeds).
If our assurance ebbs and flows, that is a more sure sign of its reality than its falsity. It gives evidence that we are living in between the ages--but we are ALIVE. We feel the effects of sin. Is it not a worrisome sign, if one has few incentives to self-examination, just invincible confidence (that is never shaken) of God's love? How shall one know the difference between that, and a faith of brass, stiff and lifeless?
Assurance is possible because the Word says it is. It is possible because it is a product of our relationship with God, and not some "element" of our lives, or pulsating corner of our hearts that we have "access" to. We have assurance of God's love after the same fashion that we have assurance of the love of our mothers, or of our spouses--by our mutual words and actions.
But what if there is deception? In human relations, that is possible. But I'm not responsible for the other person's deception, only my own, if I am the liar. Now. can God be a liar? Not at all, if we are to believe the Bible, if we are to believe him. Can I be a liar in that relationship? Yes. And if I am, only God can show me my falseness, if I refuse to question myself.
sotzo
Puritan Board Sophomore
I very much appreciate your post.
The possibility of being self-deceived about my salvation, finding out that I misunderstood the Scriptures, did not really put all my trust in Christ, etc. haunts me. I want to be bold knowing my King is faithful and live confidently, but this constant wrestling needs to be banished.
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Scripture does not record many instances of spurious faith examples individually. Those in Matt 7, Simon Magus could be the only 2 that I can think of in the NT.
John 6:66
And my fav in 1 john
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
I also believe certain elect will never reach full assurance of salvation.
ASSURANCE --J C Ryle
I like the above article with footnotes
and
"Faith and Assurance" by J.C. Ryle
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves are chastened.
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves are persecuted for righteousness' sake.
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves struggle with sin.
These are three of the biggies that I point people toward for assurance.
Many say they are believers but go on in rebellion and they seem to prosper because of it. Where is the chastening?
Many say they are believers yet are loved by the world. Where is the persecution?
Many say they are believers but they do not struggle with sin. They rationalize it, they ignore it, they disguise it, but they do not struggle with it. They have no desire to actually repent of it. They never say, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Where is the struggle?
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves are persecuted for righteousness' sake.
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves struggle with sin.
These are three of the biggies that I point people toward for assurance.
Many say they are believers but go on in rebellion and they seem to prosper because of it. Where is the chastening?
Many say they are believers yet are loved by the world. Where is the persecution?
Many say they are believers but they do not struggle with sin. They rationalize it, they ignore it, they disguise it, but they do not struggle with it. They have no desire to actually repent of it. They never say, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Where is the struggle?
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Looking closely at this verse, which causes so many to wonder about assurance, shows their folly of looking to their works.
have we not prophesied in thy name?
And in thy name have cast out devils?
And in thy name done many wonderful works?
The whole assurance of their salvation is in what THEY have done. Not what Christ has done. This is how one can be assured. By leaving all self works behind and looking to Christ Alone.. What a glroious truth...
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven" (Lk. 10:17-20).
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Southern Presbyterian
Puritan Board Doctor
Excellent point!
It is so easy to get discouraged and mislead when we take our eyes off the Savior and look too much to ourselves.
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Excellent point!
It is so easy to get discouraged and mislead when we take our eyes off the Savior and look too much to ourselves.
sotzo
Puritan Board Sophomore
The problem, however, is that it is impossible to not look at ourselves to some degree as we exercise faith, because it is we whose eyes need to be on Jesus. In other words,, the subjective self is bound up in the act of faith and because of that it is impossible to crawl out of myself and objectively know I am saved rather than to subjectively waver. I long for that objectivity.
Oh that the following words would comfort such a soul as mine!
HE (and not me) has hushed the law's loud thunder,
HE (and not me) has quenched Mount Sinai's flame.
HE (and not me) who washed us with His blood
Has secured our way to God.
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
HC 21:
Yes, you and all Christians can and should have assurance. How? Trust the gospel promises of Christ! "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."
Do you trust in Christ as your righteousness alone?
I didn't ask if you trust enough but only if you trust him.
When it comes to assurance, faith is a binary operation. It either exists or it doesn't. Full stop. There's no degree or faith, when it comes to justification and assurance.
Does faith grow? Yes, it does, day by day, but that is the fruit of justification not the ground of assurance. Yes, there is a secondary place for reflecting upon fruit. HC 86 does this:
The fruit of faith strengthens our assurance but it is not the basis of it. The sole basis/ground of assurance is Christ's righteousness for us and his unshakeable promises to us.
To refuse to have assurance on the ground that one is not sufficiently sanctified is a form of unbelief. Stop it. Repent of it. Of course you are not sanctified enough! You're a wretch. Jesus didn't obey and die for nice, sanctified people. He obeyed and died for you and me.
Will your assurance always be perfect and equally strong? No. The Westminster Confession ch 14 (as quoted above) deals with that question brilliantly. Our assurance ebbs and flows. We learn more and more to stop looking at ourselves -- just as we learn to stop looking at garbage heaps -- and we learn more and more to look at Christ and his promises.
rsc
21. What is true faith?
True faith is not only a certain knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word;1 but also a hearty trust,2 which the Holy Spirit 3 works in me by the Gospel,4 that not only to others, but to me also, forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness and salvation are freely given by God,5 merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits.6
1 James 1:6. 2 Rom 4:16-18. 3 2 Cor 4:13. Phil 1:19, 20. 4 Rom 1:16. Rom 10:17. 5 Heb 11:1, 2. Rom 1:17. 6 Eph 2:7-9. Rom 3:24, 25. Gal 2:16. * Acts 10:43.
____True faith is not only a certain knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word;1 but also a hearty trust,2 which the Holy Spirit 3 works in me by the Gospel,4 that not only to others, but to me also, forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness and salvation are freely given by God,5 merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits.6
1 James 1:6. 2 Rom 4:16-18. 3 2 Cor 4:13. Phil 1:19, 20. 4 Rom 1:16. Rom 10:17. 5 Heb 11:1, 2. Rom 1:17. 6 Eph 2:7-9. Rom 3:24, 25. Gal 2:16. * Acts 10:43.
Yes, you and all Christians can and should have assurance. How? Trust the gospel promises of Christ! "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."
Do you trust in Christ as your righteousness alone?
I didn't ask if you trust enough but only if you trust him.
When it comes to assurance, faith is a binary operation. It either exists or it doesn't. Full stop. There's no degree or faith, when it comes to justification and assurance.
Does faith grow? Yes, it does, day by day, but that is the fruit of justification not the ground of assurance. Yes, there is a secondary place for reflecting upon fruit. HC 86 does this:
86. Since then we are redeemed from our misery by grace through Christ, without any merit of ours, why should we do good works?
Because Christ, having redeemed us by His blood, also renews us by His Holy Spirit after His own image, that with our whole life we show ourselves thankful to God for His blessing,1 and also that He be glorified through us;2 then also, that we ourselves may be assured of our faith by the fruits thereof;3 and by our godly walk win also others to Christ.4
1 Rom 6:13. Rom 12:1, 2. 1 Pet 2:5,9,10. 1 Cor 6:20. 2 Matt 5:16. 1 Pet 2:12. 3 Matt 7:17,18. Gal 5:6, 22, 23. 4 Rom 14:19. 1 Pet 3:1, 2. * 2 Pet 1:10
.Because Christ, having redeemed us by His blood, also renews us by His Holy Spirit after His own image, that with our whole life we show ourselves thankful to God for His blessing,1 and also that He be glorified through us;2 then also, that we ourselves may be assured of our faith by the fruits thereof;3 and by our godly walk win also others to Christ.4
1 Rom 6:13. Rom 12:1, 2. 1 Pet 2:5,9,10. 1 Cor 6:20. 2 Matt 5:16. 1 Pet 2:12. 3 Matt 7:17,18. Gal 5:6, 22, 23. 4 Rom 14:19. 1 Pet 3:1, 2. * 2 Pet 1:10
The fruit of faith strengthens our assurance but it is not the basis of it. The sole basis/ground of assurance is Christ's righteousness for us and his unshakeable promises to us.
To refuse to have assurance on the ground that one is not sufficiently sanctified is a form of unbelief. Stop it. Repent of it. Of course you are not sanctified enough! You're a wretch. Jesus didn't obey and die for nice, sanctified people. He obeyed and died for you and me.
Will your assurance always be perfect and equally strong? No. The Westminster Confession ch 14 (as quoted above) deals with that question brilliantly. Our assurance ebbs and flows. We learn more and more to stop looking at ourselves -- just as we learn to stop looking at garbage heaps -- and we learn more and more to look at Christ and his promises.
rsc
Southern Presbyterian
Puritan Board Doctor
I too had no assurance as an independent fundamental dispensational baptist. I could never get over the thought that if even only 1% of my salvation depended on me I was still in big trouble because I knew/know how untrustworthy and inconsistent I am. It was only in being granted an understanding of the DoG and CT that assurance finally came. Do I still doubt? Yes. But knowing that salvation has nothing to do with me and my abilities forces me to focus upon Christ and His promise to keep His sheep. When I meditate upon Him and His promises I always find peace. Sometimes immediately but often only after wallowing around in the pit of self-pity and doubt for awhile. But as the WCF says, I no longer come to utter despair. God is most gracious to His children, and especially to those who ask for needed grace. in my opinion.
Look to the Spirit for guidance and comfort, [NASB]Romans 8:26-27[/NASB]. Honestly and earnestly search your heart for the true fruits of the Spirit. And ask yourself, "Do I truly love Jesus?", for He said "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." - John 8.42.
I don't know if any of that helps, but I hope so. I also offer my sincere prayers on your behalf that the Lord will quickly return to you the joy and assurance of His salvation or grant you true repentance, if that be the need.
Blessings!
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Joel -
Dr. Clark has some excellent points there... and to piggy back on his words. The ONLY sure ground for justification - the ONLY source of assurance that is possible for us is Christ's full and complete righteousness imputed to us. We cannot satisfy, no matter how well we try, God's just and righteous requirements - we'll never do it. Christ alone is just in and of himself - we fall miserably short, and if there is ANY sense in which we are looking at ourselves, looking for reason for assurance, we'll find that our assurance is less than reassuring. Our standing before God is now and ever shall be grounded in the person and work of Jesus Christ. You CAN find assurance before God, if you are looking at the right person, Christ Jesus, the spotless Lamb, slain for us.
Todd
Dr. Clark has some excellent points there... and to piggy back on his words. The ONLY sure ground for justification - the ONLY source of assurance that is possible for us is Christ's full and complete righteousness imputed to us. We cannot satisfy, no matter how well we try, God's just and righteous requirements - we'll never do it. Christ alone is just in and of himself - we fall miserably short, and if there is ANY sense in which we are looking at ourselves, looking for reason for assurance, we'll find that our assurance is less than reassuring. Our standing before God is now and ever shall be grounded in the person and work of Jesus Christ. You CAN find assurance before God, if you are looking at the right person, Christ Jesus, the spotless Lamb, slain for us.
Todd
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Faith is that poor trembling woman who came behind Jesus in the press and touched the hem of His garment (Mark 5:27). Assurance is Stephen standing calmly in the midst of his murderers, and saving, “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God!”
Faith is the penitent thief, crying, “Lord, remember me” (Luke 23:42). Assurance is Job, sitting in the dust, covered with sores, and saying, “I know that my Redeemer liveth” (Job 19:25). “Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him” (Job 13:15).
Faith is Peter’s drowning cry, as he began to sink: Lord, save me” (Matt 14:30). Assurance is that same Peter declaring before the Council in after times, “This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”(Acts 4:11-12).
Faith is the anxious, trembling voice, “Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief” (Mark 9:24). Assurance is the confident challenge, Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? . . . Who is he that condemneth?” (Rom 8:33,34). Faith is Saul praying in the house of Judas at Damascus, sorrowful, blind, and alone (Acts 9:11). Assurance is Paul, the aged prisoner, looking calmly into the grave, and saying, “I know whom I have believed . . . There is a crown laid up for me” (2 Tim 1:12, 4:8).
Faith is life. How great the blessing! Who can tell the gulf between life and death? And yet life may be weak, sickly, unhealthy, painful, trying, anxious, worn, burdensome, joyless, smileless to the very end.
Assurance is more than life. It is health, strength, power, vigor, activity, energy, manliness, beauty.
Reader, it is not a question of saved or not saved that lies before us, but of privilege or no privilege. It is not a question of peace or no peace, but of great peace or little peace. It is not a question between the wanderers of this world and the school of Christ: it is one that belongs only to the school: — it is between the first form and the last.
He that has faith does well. Happy should I be, if I thought all readers of this article had it. Blessed, thrice blessed are they that believe. They are safe. They are washed. They are justified. They are beyond the power of hell. Satan, with all his malice, shall never pluck them out of Christ’s hand.
But he that has assurance does far better, — sees more, feels more, knows more, enjoys more, has more days like those spoken of in Deuteronomy 11:21, even “as the days of heaven upon the earth.
From the article of Ryle.
Faith is the penitent thief, crying, “Lord, remember me” (Luke 23:42). Assurance is Job, sitting in the dust, covered with sores, and saying, “I know that my Redeemer liveth” (Job 19:25). “Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him” (Job 13:15).
Faith is Peter’s drowning cry, as he began to sink: Lord, save me” (Matt 14:30). Assurance is that same Peter declaring before the Council in after times, “This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”(Acts 4:11-12).
Faith is the anxious, trembling voice, “Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief” (Mark 9:24). Assurance is the confident challenge, Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? . . . Who is he that condemneth?” (Rom 8:33,34). Faith is Saul praying in the house of Judas at Damascus, sorrowful, blind, and alone (Acts 9:11). Assurance is Paul, the aged prisoner, looking calmly into the grave, and saying, “I know whom I have believed . . . There is a crown laid up for me” (2 Tim 1:12, 4:8).
Faith is life. How great the blessing! Who can tell the gulf between life and death? And yet life may be weak, sickly, unhealthy, painful, trying, anxious, worn, burdensome, joyless, smileless to the very end.
Assurance is more than life. It is health, strength, power, vigor, activity, energy, manliness, beauty.
Reader, it is not a question of saved or not saved that lies before us, but of privilege or no privilege. It is not a question of peace or no peace, but of great peace or little peace. It is not a question between the wanderers of this world and the school of Christ: it is one that belongs only to the school: — it is between the first form and the last.
He that has faith does well. Happy should I be, if I thought all readers of this article had it. Blessed, thrice blessed are they that believe. They are safe. They are washed. They are justified. They are beyond the power of hell. Satan, with all his malice, shall never pluck them out of Christ’s hand.
But he that has assurance does far better, — sees more, feels more, knows more, enjoys more, has more days like those spoken of in Deuteronomy 11:21, even “as the days of heaven upon the earth.
From the article of Ryle.
I love it!!! The parable of the sower says that the good soil people bring forth fruit, some hundredfold, some sixty and some thirty. There is no assurance in the *amount* of fruit, only in its existance at all.
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
If I can take issue with some of the advice here.
"Do I truly love Jesus?"
That's not the gospel. That's law.
Should we love Jesus? Yes. Will we, by the grace of God, come to love Jesus more truly and fully than we do now. Do we now love Jesus as we ought? No.
Substitute: "Do I love the Lord with all my faculties?" (Matt 22:37-40) The honest answer is no! We're sinners. We don't any of us love God as we ought. Thus, to ask, "do I love Jesus?" as part of the grounds for justification or assurance is the path to doubt and despair.
We start with the objective work of Christ.
Secondarily, we can ask if we have any fruit.
Yes, we look to the Spirit and we ask him to operate, as he has promised to do, through the preaching of the gospel. We should be careful about an overly subjective approach to this question.
rsc
"Do I truly love Jesus?"
That's not the gospel. That's law.
Should we love Jesus? Yes. Will we, by the grace of God, come to love Jesus more truly and fully than we do now. Do we now love Jesus as we ought? No.
Substitute: "Do I love the Lord with all my faculties?" (Matt 22:37-40) The honest answer is no! We're sinners. We don't any of us love God as we ought. Thus, to ask, "do I love Jesus?" as part of the grounds for justification or assurance is the path to doubt and despair.
We start with the objective work of Christ.
Secondarily, we can ask if we have any fruit.
Look to the Spirit for guidance and comfort, [NASB]Romans 8:26-27[/NASB]. Honestly and earnestly search your heart for the true fruits of the Spirit. And ask yourself, "Do I truly love Jesus?", for He said "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." - John 8.42.
Yes, we look to the Spirit and we ask him to operate, as he has promised to do, through the preaching of the gospel. We should be careful about an overly subjective approach to this question.
rsc
sotzo
Puritan Board Sophomore
Dr. Clark:
The objective work of Christ is the oasis in the desert. But since faith is the means by which Christ's objective work is appropriated, how can one escape the subjectivity of it?
For example, Christ's work is only appropriated to some and in Reformed circles we say those "some" are the elect. In the works of the Puritans and others, there is a seemingly constant introspection about whether or not one is truly resting in Christ or is it Christ + something else and that the latter are damned because they are not trusting Christ alone.
That's where it gets difficult because on the one hand, as Reformed believers, we want to say that Christ alone saves and we believe that those trusting in something else cannot be saved. Yet, on the other hand, as you've clearly stated, all of us struggle with putting other gods before God and trusting in other things.
And that is where it gets to be shades of gray rather than "this folks are elect" and "those folks aren't". As Bavinck has said, certainty of faith needs something firmer than these shades of gray (he didn't exactly speak of shades of gray, but alluded to the necessity to ground certainty properly).
What I do see happening in my life outside of these doubts causes me to give thanks to God. Sin in general, materialism, pride...they are all increasingly abhorrent to me. I crave to know God and serve Him in this world more and more. But the reality of such things cause me all the more to wonder why I can't just rest in assurance and serve Him without wondering if I'm in a fairy tale.
The objective work of Christ is the oasis in the desert. But since faith is the means by which Christ's objective work is appropriated, how can one escape the subjectivity of it?
For example, Christ's work is only appropriated to some and in Reformed circles we say those "some" are the elect. In the works of the Puritans and others, there is a seemingly constant introspection about whether or not one is truly resting in Christ or is it Christ + something else and that the latter are damned because they are not trusting Christ alone.
That's where it gets difficult because on the one hand, as Reformed believers, we want to say that Christ alone saves and we believe that those trusting in something else cannot be saved. Yet, on the other hand, as you've clearly stated, all of us struggle with putting other gods before God and trusting in other things.
And that is where it gets to be shades of gray rather than "this folks are elect" and "those folks aren't". As Bavinck has said, certainty of faith needs something firmer than these shades of gray (he didn't exactly speak of shades of gray, but alluded to the necessity to ground certainty properly).
What I do see happening in my life outside of these doubts causes me to give thanks to God. Sin in general, materialism, pride...they are all increasingly abhorrent to me. I crave to know God and serve Him in this world more and more. But the reality of such things cause me all the more to wonder why I can't just rest in assurance and serve Him without wondering if I'm in a fairy tale.
regener8ed
Puritan Board Freshman
I always doubt my salvation when I look at myself. I am assured of it when I look at my perfect Savior.
Davidius
Inactive User
I, too, have never understood how one can be completely objective. I can look at Christ and his work for sinners and believe that he truly died for the elect and yet doubt that I am one of them. How do you get from looking at Christ to knowing that you are in Christ? It seems like it has to be subjective to some extent.
Well, imagine if it were not a struggle, would you be crying out to Christ to save you from the body of death?
It is interesting that this thread should arise because I've been reading a bunch of Puritan biographies and I was struck by the fact that nearly every biography lists a date of a "conversion experience". I don't think it's a mistake that, even though the systematics was generally sound, this focus was probably the seedbed for revivalism.
This is not a terribly difficult thing but it does lead us to seesaw in the recesses of our mind where doubts of assurance can strike.
I really don't think, after studying James or Paul, that they had the struggling Christian in mind when they challenged men on the genuineness of their faith. If you read James, for instance, there is the sense of a callous disregard for fruit and the insistence, it seems, that I have faith and fruit is optional. James proceeds to show that such men and women have no love for the things of God and not some love. In fact, the "faith" of the hypocrite is the perfect example of something that looks back upon itself instead of outwardly to what its object ought to be and the gratitude that flows out of it.
Look, it's been said so many times already and you just need to believe this: You are a beggar when it comes to Christ. Look to His work and grab on to His feet. When the others are pushing you away saying: "The master is too busy, don't bother Him" then ignore the fact that you're the leper and cry out: "Jesus! Master! Have mercy upon me a sinner!" When Christ asks you: "Do you believe in Me." Then answer like the father of the epileptic: "Lord I believe, help though my unbelief."
As Dr. Clark noted, you either have faith or you do not. Don't look at the strength of your faith. There is no faith too weak, if it lays hold of Christ, that does not unite to Him. That doesn't mean that it's a faith that looks upon itself and is content to say that no growth is necessary but the necessity of growth and the presence of abiding sin ought not to be used as a reason to focus back inward. The focus ought NOT to be on the quality of your faith but whether or not you believe in what Christ has done.
So, if you're struggling with sin then welcome to the club! I'm not saying you're supposed to delight in your sin. In fact, it brings us all great sorrow. But you ought not constantly get into a "do loop" to wonder if God still has kind intentions toward you. Election is not introduced in the Scriptures to get us to sit back and wonder about the elect status of anyone including ourselves. It is meant to comfort believers. Do you believe? Then be comforted that He who began a good work in you will complete it to the very end.
regener8ed
Puritan Board Freshman
I struggle with exactly the same thought. I always come to the conclusion that whether I am elect or not has nothing to do with me. That's His business and I will just have to trust that He has paid the price for those that are His.
If my faith is genuine, and I belong to Him, then the price has been paid. If I am self deceived and not among the elect, then there is nothing I can do about it anyways...
Either way He will be glorified. I just pray that He glorifies Himself in me according to His mercy rather than His justice. I am thankful that He has revealed Himself in His word to be merciful.
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