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Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?
1 Samuel 24:10 10 "Behold, this day your eyes have seen that the LORD had given you today into my hand in the cave, and some said to kill you, but my eye had pity on you; and I said, 'I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is the LORD'S anointed.'
1 Corinthians 9:1-2 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
Galatians 1:8-9 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...
Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...
Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.
Imprecatory Psalms have presented difficulty to me for years. Is it right to pray for God to smite my enemies? Should we not pray for their salvation? Does there appear to be inconsistency with God in these areas? A few thoughts...
Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.
Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?
P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!
For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Some of the imprecatory Psalms were against the *King* and those fellow Israelties who hunted David down. Not all were against your *enemy,* some where against your *neighbor.* A fellow covenant member.
Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?
P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!
Psalm 55, for example:
For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
verses 12-15
Can you elaborate on that a little more? Which psalms in particular are you speaking of?
P.S. Thanks for all the great input guys, keep it coming!
Psalm 55, for example:
For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
verses 12-15
This may sound weird but this Psalm was a great comfort to me when I was going through my divorce.
Psalm 137
Westminster Bookstore - Reformed Books - Low Prices - $5 Shipping - War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms
This book would be a benefit to eveyone here.
Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?
Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?
AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”
This is the command :
19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."
As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).
God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.
Hey what do you guys think of the imprecatory psalms? We're going to be discussing them soon in our small group. I'm thinking particularly of like Psalms 69. Any thoughts?
AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”
This is the command :
19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."
As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).
God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.
I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.
Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.
Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.
I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.
My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.
I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.
[bible]Galatians 5:12[/bible]
All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation.
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Athorized Version
All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation.
Randy wrote:
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Athorized Version
All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation.
Randy wrote:
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Athorized Version
I know he did. But I do not know what it means on regards to some proof of immediate judgment. I take it as a prophecy of what would be. For this could be the same man who Paul delivered to satan with Hymenaeus. And literally "The Lord will reward him or render him..."
Randy wrote:
I know he did. But I do not know what it means on regards to some proof of immediate judgment. I take it as a prophecy of what would be. For this could be the same man who Paul delivered to satan with Hymenaeus. And literally "The Lord will reward him or render him..."
And literally your text quote is the Alexandrian text. Not the majority text.
And Paul's desire to see those with a false Gospel in Galatians to cut themelves was his understanding that they were cursed.
And I do believe God does reward the wicked here on earth. He has ministers of civil law for this. And I do believe we should support them and God's will in this. I also believe God sends punishment in disease and famine to the earth for men's wickedness. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
AS I mentioned on the other recent thread, or am I having deja vu all over again as yogi said, there is no nt example of praying for immediate temperal destruction on enemies. It has moved from David's thought to an eschalogical focus as revealed in revelation. It is an eschatological prayer, no different in its words from "your kingdom come". It can never be prayed as personal vengeance. Even David appealed to God alone to vindicate. Luke 18:7, which states, " "And will not God bring about justice [ "retribution"] for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?" The balance is hard and I would gather almost impossible by human standards. “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, 18 lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.”
This is the command :
19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."
As I also pointed out before when the disciples asked Christ about raining down fire from heaven, He rebuked them Ye know not of what spirit ye are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy the souls of men, but to save (Luke 9:51-56).
God alone is the King and Sovereign. The martyrs cry out:"and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
They receive their answer :BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.
I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.
Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.
Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.
I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.
My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.
I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.
Rich, do not hear what I am not saying. All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation. David did not have this revealed to him as we do now.
Until you and others grapple with the 2 verses I mentioned, no other conclusion can be reached. Ill repeat them again in case you missed them.
19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."
And Luke where james and john wanted to be like elijah. This would have been the perfect time for Christ to validate their request, yet He rebukes them.
regardless of Christs response to the scribes or your interpretation of the sermon on the mount, this topic has little if anything to do with Law/ Gospel distinction.
We can pray imprecatory psalms with an eschalogical fullfilment guaranteed by the apostle John in Rev 19. The vindication will happen at that time alone, not any sooner nor later. This is where the comfort must lie, not in any temporary immediate judgment of God on our enemies and His.
and Deut 3221If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.
They existed with the psalms, not against them.35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
I completely disagree with the way this is being formulated as an objection to the imprecatory Psalms. This assumes almost a dispensational grid to the Scriptures. When Christ was asked what the greatest Commandments were by a scribe He responded that it was love of God and love of neighbor. The scribe agreed. There is a dispensational notion (and in some cases repeated by people who haven't read the Sermon on the Mount properly) that Christ somehow changes the nature of the Law from one of vengeance upon those "outside the Camp" to one of love. Not so.
Christ repeatedly corrects a mis-apprehension of the OT by Rabinnical schools. "You have heard it said, but I say to you...." He never says: "It is written, but I say to you...." Never.
Even in the Law itself is a command to be kind to the stranger in your midst as a reminder that the people were once strangers in a foreign land. Love is the summation of the Law itself. I completely reject any notion that the reason that the OT had imprecatory Psalms is because that "dispensation" was some sort of "eschatological intrusion" when the Law itself repudiates the hatred of our neighbors even if they are our enemies.
I think people need to look "behind" the Psalms a bit more. Randy is absolutely correct about the comfort that the imprecatory Psalms offer. If you ever find yourself in a period of intense spiritual onslaught then singing those Psalms is tremendously comforting. I'm not directing my imprecations at individuals but that which afflicts me or the the Church. Ultimately, I believe these Psalms are given that we might cry out against the forces of the enemy that assault God's people. To relegate these Psalms to a "bygone dispensation" robs the Church of a tremendous comfort.
My child's favorite Psalm to sing is Psalm 3 because one of the verses talks about going to sleep and he wants to sing to God asking Him to protect him while he's sleeping.
I agree that they can be abused and people who get their Kingdoms gooned up can mis-use them but the complete abandonment of them is reprehensible in my view.
Rich, do not hear what I am not saying. All I said is these prayers have to be prayed with the eschalogical mindset of the new cov believer. There is no record of any prayers of this type recorded in the NT. You call it dispensationalism wrongly, it is progressive revelation. David did not have this revealed to him as we do now.
Until you and others grapple with the 2 verses I mentioned, no other conclusion can be reached. Ill repeat them again in case you missed them.
19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."
And Luke where james and john wanted to be like elijah. This would have been the perfect time for Christ to validate their request, yet He rebukes them.
regardless of Christs response to the scribes or your interpretation of the sermon on the mount, this topic has little if anything to do with Law/ Gospel distinction.
We can pray imprecatory psalms with an eschalogical fullfilment guaranteed by the apostle John in Rev 19. The vindication will happen at that time alone, not any sooner nor later. This is where the comfort must lie, not in any temporary immediate judgment of God on our enemies and His.
I have no need to grapple with those verses Robert, as if they contradict the point I made, since I never denied we must show love to neighbor nor did I advocate the praying of imprecations against our "personal" enemies. David had to "grapple" with the same idea, though. He was no more permitted to hate men than we are. I don't agree with the characterization that the nature of the Law changed from OT to NT believer. The end of the Law has always been love of God and love of neighbor and you need to grapple with that issue and not place the OT Saints in some sort of separate category where David was permitted to hate neighbor as some sort of "eschatological intrusion".