Anton Bruckner
Puritan Board Professor
If a person is wrongfully convicted of a crime and is imprisoned and got an opportunity to escape what should he or she do?
Ethical Question
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N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Was Paul wrongfully imprisoned? How about Daniel? How about Joseph?
How did these men interpret the providence that God had given them?
Not saying I wouldn't want to... but I would have difficulty while searching the Scriptures.
How did these men interpret the providence that God had given them?
Not saying I wouldn't want to... but I would have difficulty while searching the Scriptures.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Two more: Christopher Love, John Bunyan.
Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
Need more details.
If it was---I don't know, say---in a country run by Muslim law, and they imprisoned me on trumped up charges while I was visiting, I would escape if I could.
I have a higher obligation to get back and be there for my family, honoring Muslim law isn't on the top of my priority list.
How about if it was in Castro's Cuba? If you were convicted for sneaking in Bible's, say. I think I would also.
How about here in America. That would depend on more details, but since I covenanted to live by the laws here, and if a jury of my peers convicted me, I might not. I could study the law books and go through the proper channels.
But maybe this would be like a 'Fugitive' (Harrison Ford) situation. Say I was scheduled to die. Say I knew where some evidence was that would free me, and say no one would 'listen' to me and my crazy story. Perhaps if the train crashed I'd go on the run to get that piece fo evidence.
Anyway, we'd need a lot more specifics.
I'd say, sometimes it is fine, sometimes not.
Dr Mike Kear
Inactive User
This text is the first thing I thought of when I read your question.
Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church. And when Herod was about to bring him out, that night Peter was sleeping, bound with two chains between two soldiers; and the guards before the door were keeping the prison. Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, "Arise quickly!" And his chains fell off his hands. Then the angel said to him, "Gird yourself and tie on your sandals"; and so he did. And he said to him, "Put on your garment and follow me." So he went out and followed him, and did not know that what was done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him. And when Peter had come to himself, he said, "Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people." (Acts 12:5-11, NKJV)
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
Romans 13:1-5
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
It would seem that conscience would dictate not escaping and trusting that God would vindicate you. In my humble opinion
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
It would seem that conscience would dictate not escaping and trusting that God would vindicate you. In my humble opinion
Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
And what are you trying to prove? They also included their children in the covenant and gave them the sign, but for some reason you don't do that. Why do you think all examples or narratives are noramtive?
Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
Romans 13:1-5
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
It would seem that conscience would dictate not escaping and trusting that God would vindicate you. In my humble opinion
Wow, so if Hitler told you to murder Jews, you would.
(And, in case you come back with "But that violates God's laws," Well, I think not being there to provide for my family in the instances I described violate God's laws for me...)
I am trying to prove - and I have quite succinctly - that Muslim law is on par with Egyptian or Babylonian. Both are as idolatrous and ungodly as Islam. If you're going to justify your escape on the fact your captors are Muslim, then you don't have biblical precedent. Now, as to your obligation to your family, that's not in question. We all have that - even those who are imprisoned in "Christian" nations.
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
Romans 13:1-5
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
It would seem that conscience would dictate not escaping and trusting that God would vindicate you. In my humble opinion
Wow, so if Hitler told you to murder Jews, you would.
(And, in case you come back with "But that violates God's laws," Well, I think not being there to provide for my family in the instances I described violate God's laws for me...)
WOW!
I was responding to the OP. What being wrongly convicted and imprisioned has to with Hitler telling me to kill Jews is far beyond the scope of my answer.
Sorry, it might not be Biblical: but if I were in say South America, (Guilty until proven innocent in most of those places) I would hit the road if I could. Not saying its right, just being honest here.
Yeah, well I'm not saying I wouldn't try to escape either. When I was in the Air Force I was trained in combat survival and evasion due to the nature of my job. I often thought, "What if I ever have to use the skills I've acquired?"
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
I would say no it is not ethical to escape because one is obligated, even if wrongfully, to submit to the authority of the State in this case.
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
My first though when I read this was The Count of Monte Cristo!
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
What about a POW? If you were in the Military would you not have an obligation to attempt an escape from an agressor nation, and return to the Nation and Military to which you have sworn a duty?
To me this is a situation some what different from the OP:
Which is different from being in a foreign country:
The OP specifies nothing about military scenarios, POWs, foreign countries, or Hitler instructing me to kill Jews.
The OP, to me asks, If I am convicted wrongly and imprisoned for a crime I did not committ should I try to escape? My answer is "No!"
If "escaping" meant a life on the run, versus enduring the trial and being released, and not having to go back--might be better to stay.
If staying means dying soon anyway, why not try to flee, if by doing so (and preserving your life) you will have more opportunity in this life to glorify God? If the RCC were imprisoning you, to [try and] make you convert, wouldn't you wish to escape?
Of course, you might decide that to "play the man, Ridley" would be better, because "to depart is far better."
Not very definitive, sorry.
If staying means dying soon anyway, why not try to flee, if by doing so (and preserving your life) you will have more opportunity in this life to glorify God? If the RCC were imprisoning you, to [try and] make you convert, wouldn't you wish to escape?
Of course, you might decide that to "play the man, Ridley" would be better, because "to depart is far better."
Not very definitive, sorry.
I think:
1. if you get a jewelry hammer in the mail and were wrongly convicted of the murder of your wife,
2. and you're a gifted financier who is able to do the Prison Guard's tax returns,
3. and you're forced to work the books for some sort of crooked scheme that the warden is using to skim money from local contractors,
4. and a young confused man comes into the prison who you help get a high school degree suddenly reveals that he was a prison mate of a guy who confessed to the crime that you were convicted of,
5. and the warden was so obtuse and wicked that he locked you up when you asked him to help open the case back up,
6. and he killed your young protege and told you he'd send you back to live among the Sodomites if you don't continue to cooperate,
7. and you had already begun digging a tunnel with that small jeweler's hammer twenty years before and it was pretty much completed and it was apparent you were going to be a slave of this wicked warden so you might as well escape to report the crime and ensure justice was done to the warden and his sadistic Captain.
Then, yes, it is ethical to escape.
1. if you get a jewelry hammer in the mail and were wrongly convicted of the murder of your wife,
2. and you're a gifted financier who is able to do the Prison Guard's tax returns,
3. and you're forced to work the books for some sort of crooked scheme that the warden is using to skim money from local contractors,
4. and a young confused man comes into the prison who you help get a high school degree suddenly reveals that he was a prison mate of a guy who confessed to the crime that you were convicted of,
5. and the warden was so obtuse and wicked that he locked you up when you asked him to help open the case back up,
6. and he killed your young protege and told you he'd send you back to live among the Sodomites if you don't continue to cooperate,
7. and you had already begun digging a tunnel with that small jeweler's hammer twenty years before and it was pretty much completed and it was apparent you were going to be a slave of this wicked warden so you might as well escape to report the crime and ensure justice was done to the warden and his sadistic Captain.
Then, yes, it is ethical to escape.
I've got this quote! Pick me, Pick me! Shawshank Redemption
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
This is not a game Bruce. Get serious for a moment. I'm trying to offer a hypothetical.
Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
But I didn't "justify it by the mere fact that they were Muslim."
And, I never disputed that one law was not on par with another (though that could be debated too). So, then your admitted "proof" was actually totally irrelevant to my post.
I wonder what you could be arguing. Something like this:
1. If Joseph and Daniel did X, then we should.
2. Joseph and Daniel satyed in jail.
3. Therefore we should stay in jail.
Okay, then you argument logically leads to you including your children in the covenant. If x = inclide your children in the covenant, that is. The argument would follow. I guess you coud deny P1, but then you don't have an argument. Which is why I asked you what you thoguht you were proving. It's either too little or too much.
I mean, c'mon now, using examples where people were told by God to stay put, and were part of redemptive history for revelatory purposes, isn't exactly the paradigm of analogicality!
So, as I said, what, exactly, were you trying to prove?
So far you've gave a self-defeating argument (in that it would refute your credo baptist views, which you don't want), and made a totally irrelevant (to my post) comment.
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Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
Romans 13:1-5
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
It would seem that conscience would dictate not escaping and trusting that God would vindicate you. In my humble opinion
Wow, so if Hitler told you to murder Jews, you would.
(And, in case you come back with "But that violates God's laws," Well, I think not being there to provide for my family in the instances I described violate God's laws for me...)
WOW!
I was responding to the OP. What being wrongly convicted and imprisioned has to with Hitler telling me to kill Jews is far beyond the scope of my answer.
WOW, you're being obtuse.
You were intimating that we should stay in jail "because the government commanded it."
But, Hitler's gov. also would have "commanded" you to kill the Jews.
You wouldn't do that. Or, would you?
So, your point needs a bit more than a simplistic posting of a verse that doesn't help us answer the OP, which is what you "were trying to do." Your proof text is the "obvious" defeater you planned on it being.
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Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
So, I guess you can escape from the wicked, Rom. 13 Government if they are on their way to arrest you. But, if you have already been arrested, then you cannot escape... riiiight.
I'd also add that Kear posted of Peter escaping prison. I guess you could say, "But this was God's command. God's desire." But so it was too regarding Joseph and Daniel. So if the former can't be used to show that you can escape in some instances, then the latter can't be used to prove that you cannot escape in any instance. So, at best, those proof texts have been negated.
I cited reference to Paul doing precisely what many here said would be a no-no.
And so again, depending on the details given, my answer would be that I would in some instances, probably not in others. I spelled out some reasons why.
Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
Jim Johnston
Puritan Board Sophomore
What about a POW? If you were in the Military would you not have an obligation to attempt an escape from an agressor nation, and return to the Nation and Military to which you have sworn a duty?
That fits in with part of my criteria. If I am a U.S. citizen, then the Islamic country that imprisoned me on trumped up charges, isn't my government. I don't have to submit to them in any and all instances. They have no sovereignty over me.
Like in Prison Break, you can escape - but don't let T Bag escape with you. He's a bad man.
We are not obligated to obey wicked laws. ANd obeying a law that imprisons an innocent man is wicked. Escape if you can. In military scenarios, escape doubly so..you are in fact obligated to at least try.
We are not obligated to obey wicked laws. ANd obeying a law that imprisons an innocent man is wicked. Escape if you can. In military scenarios, escape doubly so..you are in fact obligated to at least try.
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