New Heavens And A New Earth

[kalawine]

OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

 

[Devin]

I am no Greek expert, but I have heard from several sermons that the words used by Peter point towards a reforming of Earth rather than the annihilation of Earth. If this is so, then maybe some of the actually experts can give the specifics.

 

[crhoades]

Just got back from a lecture by the infamous N.T. Wright here in Nashville touting his new book on heaven. Can't say that he said anything heretical. He went with the reforming view.

 

[brymaes]

I think that Jacob (Ivanhoe) holds to the reforming view. I am sympathetic to that view as well.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I think that Jacob (Ivanhoe) holds to the reforming view. I am sympathetic to that view as well.

I think that is Peter Leithart's position.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

For what it's worth I believe the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65 refers to the NT age, but I am not convinced that the 2 Peter passage does.

 

[Pergamum]

If new means restored instead of brand spanking new in regards to a new heaven and a new earth, what about the new covenant? Is the same word used (sorry if off topic)...

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Just got back from a lecture by the infamous N.T. Wright here in Nashville touting his new book on heaven. Can't say that he said anything heretical. He went with the reforming view.

Outside of NPP N.T. Wright is a pretty Orthodox guy. His radical defense against the Jesus Seminar and the people of their ilk is commendable and should be supported.

 

[Stephen]

OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

For what it's worth I believe the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65 refers to the NT age, but I am not convinced that the 2 Peter passage does.

I agree with Daniel. The theme of a new heaven and new earth is repeated throughout Scripture. God created the heavens and earth and sin entered into it. God recreated the heavens and earth after the flood. When Jesus as the suffering servant came, He fulfilled the prophecies of Isaiah by recreating the heavens and the earth. Peter is describing the final judgment when Christ will return and complete his work of creation. The creation of heaven and earth has already begun. The apostle Paul says, that anyone in Christ is a new creation. This creation will be completed and fully realized when Christ returns at His final Peurosia (coming). William Dumbrell has written an excellent work, entitled, "The End of the Beginning." He shows how Revelation 21 & 22 is a completion of many themes that began in the Old Testament such as, The New Jerusalem, The New Temple, The New Covenant, and The New Creation.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

You may wish to read Thomas Adams' exposition of this passage, particularly on v. 13.

Links and Downloads Manager - The Epistles - An Exposition Upon the Second Epistle General of St. Peter -- Thomas Adams - The PuritanBoard

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

If new means restored instead of brand spanking new in regards to a new heaven and a new earth, what about the new covenant? Is the same word used (sorry if off topic)...

The word new means "renewed" in both cases; just like "a new commandment I give unto you that you love one another", which was not absolutely new, but a renewal of an old commandment.

 

[unlearnedlearner]

OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

kalawine,

Briefly, I take the "new heavens and new earth" to be centered on the restoration of the heavens and the earth. There is continuity and transformation (better word, I think, than discontinuity) that takes place. Peter says the old world "perished", but we know that it survived the flood. So with the language of the current heavens and earth (the ones existent after the flood) being 'dissolved', etc., I don't take the language 'literally', but believe it will survive, albeit restored - like in "This Old House" when they make the home "new'.

When you became a 'new creation', were you obliterated, destroyed, or were you redeemed? God redeems. He saves that which exists rather than relegate it to the scrap heap per se.

It is in this passage, because it gives a point of contrast with the false teachers - "where is the promise of his coming? All things continue as they always have..."

 

[kalawine]

OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

kalawine,

Briefly, I take the "new heavens and new earth" to be centered on the restoration of the heavens and the earth. There is continuity and transformation (better word, I think, than discontinuity) that takes place. Peter says the old world "perished", but we know that it survived the flood. So with the language of the current heavens and earth (the ones existent after the flood) being 'dissolved', etc., I don't take the language 'literally', but believe it will survive, albeit restored - like in "This Old House" when they make the home "new'.

When you became a 'new creation', were you obliterated, destroyed, or were you redeemed? God redeems. He saves that which exists rather than relegate it to the scrap heap per se.

It is in this passage, because it gives a point of contrast with the false teachers - "where is the promise of his coming? All things continue as they always have..."

Good answer! This makes sense to me. Even as I have spent the last few days studying this subject I believe that this is what the Lord would have us believe.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Hey:

Postmillennialists and Preterists interpret the phrase from Peter as meaning the "Elements of Society." That is, that the societal structures which are in place now will be "burned up," and will be replaced by Christ and His kingdom on Earth (the physical heavens and earth will remain the same). Most Postmills understand this as beginning to occur before the Second Advent (i.e. "Golden Age") and then Christ returns to commsumate it all.

Premills understand this occuring after the Second Advent when literally the physical heavens and earth are destroyed, and Christ forms a new heavens and earth. Most Amills view it this way as well, but there are some who hold to the Postmill position. Amills cross-reference the Peter passage with this one in Hebrews:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail, Heb 1:10-12.

Paul, here, is speaking about the physical heavens and earth, because the foundation of the earth was laid, "in the beginning." I think Peter is referring to the same event.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

 

[kalawine]

Hey:

Postmillennialists and Preterists interpret the phrase from Peter as meaning the "Elements of Society." That is, that the societal structures which are in place now will be "burned up," and will be replaced by Christ and His kingdom on Earth (the physical heavens and earth will remain the same). Most Postmills understand this as beginning to occur before the Second Advent (i.e. "Golden Age") and then Christ returns to commsumate it all.

Premills understand this occuring after the Second Advent when literally the physical heavens and earth are destroyed, and Christ forms a new heavens and earth. Most Amills view it this way as well, but there are some who hold to the Postmill position. Amills cross-reference the Peter passage with this one in Hebrews:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail, Heb 1:10-12.

Paul, here, is speaking about the physical heavens and earth, because the foundation of the earth was laid, "in the beginning." I think Peter is referring to the same event.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

Thanks! This is pretty convincing info!

 

[Stephen]

Hey:

Postmillennialists and Preterists interpret the phrase from Peter as meaning the "Elements of Society." That is, that the societal structures which are in place now will be "burned up," and will be replaced by Christ and His kingdom on Earth (the physical heavens and earth will remain the same). Most Postmills understand this as beginning to occur before the Second Advent (i.e. "Golden Age") and then Christ returns to commsumate it all.

Premills understand this occuring after the Second Advent when literally the physical heavens and earth are destroyed, and Christ forms a new heavens and earth. Most Amills view it this way as well, but there are some who hold to the Postmill position. Amills cross-reference the Peter passage with this one in Hebrews:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail, Heb 1:10-12.

Paul, here, is speaking about the physical heavens and earth, because the foundation of the earth was laid, "in the beginning." I think Peter is referring to the same event.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

I am sorry, but where is your reference to Paul?

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Hey:

Postmillennialists and Preterists interpret the phrase from Peter as meaning the "Elements of Society." That is, that the societal structures which are in place now will be "burned up," and will be replaced by Christ and His kingdom on Earth (the physical heavens and earth will remain the same). Most Postmills understand this as beginning to occur before the Second Advent (i.e. "Golden Age") and then Christ returns to commsumate it all.

Premills understand this occuring after the Second Advent when literally the physical heavens and earth are destroyed, and Christ forms a new heavens and earth. Most Amills view it this way as well, but there are some who hold to the Postmill position. Amills cross-reference the Peter passage with this one in Hebrews:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail, Heb 1:10-12.

Paul, here, is speaking about the physical heavens and earth, because the foundation of the earth was laid, "in the beginning." I think Peter is referring to the same event.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

I am sorry, but where is your reference to Paul?

Hi:

John Owen does a very convincing job of proving the Pauline authorship in Volume 1 of his Commentary on Hebrews. A few examples:

1) Paul was a Pharisee before he was converted. Consequently, being intimately knowledgeable about the Mosaic ceremonial law, he would be an apt author of Hebrews. This is probably a record of how he disputed with the Jews when he went to their synagogues, Acts 9:22.

2) There are many references in Hebrews that point to Pauline authorship. One example:

Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you. Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. Grace be with you all. Amen Heb 13:23-25 last verses of the epistle.

Note: The ministry of Timothy was intimately associated with Paul. The Apostle wrote at least two letters to him.

Note: Paul is often sending Timothy on errands, Phil 2:19,20.

Note: Paul notes that he is in Italy - where he was taken to be judged and executed by Caesar.

Note: This is the Pauline ending which he says marks every letter he writes:

The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 2 Thess 3:17,18

Owen has many more excellent points to make.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

 

[Stephen]

Hey:

Postmillennialists and Preterists interpret the phrase from Peter as meaning the "Elements of Society." That is, that the societal structures which are in place now will be "burned up," and will be replaced by Christ and His kingdom on Earth (the physical heavens and earth will remain the same). Most Postmills understand this as beginning to occur before the Second Advent (i.e. "Golden Age") and then Christ returns to commsumate it all.

Premills understand this occuring after the Second Advent when literally the physical heavens and earth are destroyed, and Christ forms a new heavens and earth. Most Amills view it this way as well, but there are some who hold to the Postmill position. Amills cross-reference the Peter passage with this one in Hebrews:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail, Heb 1:10-12.

Paul, here, is speaking about the physical heavens and earth, because the foundation of the earth was laid, "in the beginning." I think Peter is referring to the same event.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

I am sorry, but where is your reference to Paul?

Hi:

John Owen does a very convincing job of proving the Pauline authorship in Volume 1 of his Commentary on Hebrews. A few examples:

1) Paul was a Pharisee before he was converted. Consequently, being intimately knowledgeable about the Mosaic ceremonial law, he would be an apt author of Hebrews. This is probably a record of how he disputed with the Jews when he went to their synagogues, Acts 9:22.

2) There are many references in Hebrews that point to Pauline authorship. One example:

Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you. Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. Grace be with you all. Amen Heb 13:23-25 last verses of the epistle.

Note: The ministry of Timothy was intimately associated with Paul. The Apostle wrote at least two letters to him.

Note: Paul is often sending Timothy on errands, Phil 2:19,20.

Note: Paul notes that he is in Italy - where he was taken to be judged and executed by Caesar.

Note: This is the Pauline ending which he says marks every letter he writes:

The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 2 Thess 3:17,18

Owen has many more excellent points to make.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

Ok, I understand. I did not realize that Owen made a strong case for Pauline authorship of Hebrews. I am not convinced that Paul wrote Hebrews, but I will certainly check Owen on this. Thanks.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Paul said the creation will be liberated with us at the resurrection. The corruption and decay that was laid upon it in the Fall will be removed. So, it won't be annihilated but restored to unfallen splendor, the same time we are glorified. 1 Cor 15 also picks up on this too.

Romans 8:18-24
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

 

[R Harris]

Hey:

Postmillennialists and Preterists interpret the phrase from Peter as meaning the "Elements of Society." That is, that the societal structures which are in place now will be "burned up," and will be replaced by Christ and His kingdom on Earth (the physical heavens and earth will remain the same). Most Postmills understand this as beginning to occur before the Second Advent (i.e. "Golden Age") and then Christ returns to commsumate it all.

Premills understand this occuring after the Second Advent when literally the physical heavens and earth are destroyed, and Christ forms a new heavens and earth. Most Amills view it this way as well, but there are some who hold to the Postmill position. Amills cross-reference the Peter passage with this one in Hebrews:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail, Heb 1:10-12.

Paul, here, is speaking about the physical heavens and earth, because the foundation of the earth was laid, "in the beginning." I think Peter is referring to the same event.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

I have heard Richard Bacon and Gary DeMar refer to the "elements" as referring particularly to the Old Covenant Temple worship elements. Not sure where they get this from, but I thought it was interesting.

In the past 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that the "new heavens and new earth" are referring to the NT age. Even as a dispensationalist, I struggled with this.

Simply too many temporal references in Rev 21 and Isaiah 65 that cannot be easily explained away.

 

[unlearnedlearner]

I have heard Richard Bacon and Gary DeMar refer to the "elements" as referring particularly to the Old Covenant Temple worship elements. Not sure where they get this from, but I thought it was interesting.

In the past 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that the "new heavens and new earth" are referring to the NT age. Even as a dispensationalist, I struggled with this.

Simply too many temporal references in Rev 21 and Isaiah 65 that cannot be easily explained away.

Albeit related, I think there are key differences b/t Rev. 21 & Isaiah 65.

 

[greenbaggins]

In my opinion, no one has understood the new heavens and the new earth better than C.S. Lewis in The Last Battle, in the last several chapters. There is continuity and discontinuity, and I'm not sure how dogmatic we can be on emphasizing the one or the other.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Hi:

PuritanSailor:

I don't believe that the passage from Romans excludes the destruction of the physical heavens and earth. Taking the analogy of Paul one can ask: What happens to our own physical nature after we die? We become dust and ashes don't we? Our physical nature is completely destroyed, and, on the Last Day Christ will restore us and give us spiritual bodies.

It would follow that a new heavens and a new earth would have to be created in order to conform to our new spiritual nature. Changing into a new nature would require the destruction of the old.

R. Harris:

I think the phrase "heaven and earth" is used differently throughout Scripture. It can, as you noted, be as the Preterests say as referring to the Temple of Solomon and the Second Temple. However, it seems clear that Paul in Hebrews is referring to the physical "heavens and earth" that God created "in the beginning." I think the context in Peter as well as Revelation 21ff also requires one to understand "heaven and earth" to mean the physical and literal as well.

Greenbaggins:

Having read the Last Battle over 30 years ago I am uncertain about how C.S. Lewis deals with the matter. If you could clarify with some quotes, then I would be most appreciative.

Blessings,

-CH

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Hi:

PuritanSailor:

I don't believe that the passage from Romans excludes the destruction of the physical heavens and earth. Taking the analogy of Paul one can ask: What happens to our own physical nature after we die? We become dust and ashes don't we? Our physical nature is completely destroyed, and, on the Last Day Christ will restore us and give us spiritual bodies.

It would follow that a new heavens and a new earth would have to be created in order to conform to our new spiritual nature. Changing into a new nature would require the destruction of the old.

Oh, I believe alot of it will be destroyed, I think that's the message of 2 Peter. But also replaced at the same time with something better. It will be an literal heaven and earth which is compatible with our glorified physical bodies. I don't think it will be so completely different that we can't recognize it though. Jesus resurrected body was capable of interaction with this present corrupt age. But all the effects of sin will be purged and the bondage of decay gone, whatever else it looks like. There was nothing inherently wrong with the initial design of the Garden before, and I see no reason for God not to repeat it when he renews all things. I agree with Green Baggins about CS Lewis's analogy in Last Battle. I think Lewis had the right idea. The imagery of Isaiah and Revelation is clearly Edenic. It will be a new Garden of Eden but in universal proportions, an entire cosmos in which we will dwell with God for eternity. That's just my sense of it. I think the Incarnation and Resurrection of Christ indicates alot for us. There will be a literal physical earth forever because Jesus united the dust of the earth to himself in the Incarnation. Don't ask me how to explain the physics of all that though.

 

[jpechin]

Uh, guys, isn't the word in all these cases 'kainos', which simply means 'new' and not 'renewed'? It's ok to exegete the passages based on the entirety of scriptures, no problem, but this brother asked for an interpretation of the language itself. If that's the case, kainos lexically means 'recently formed', 'of a new kind' - new in the sense of brand spanking new.

Now, if we take the full evidence on the matter, I agree that applying consistent hermeneutic will give us the desired affect of a new covenant that is built upon the old, and that it is mostly the fulfillment of the law, in the sense that the law is now made whole and complete with the righteousness of Christ through faith.

I just think if we're to remain careful in our answers, we should be honest toward the nature of the question. Hope this is edifying, brothers.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

OK, I may be depending on some of our Greek experts for this one but anyone who knows what they're talking about will do. When Peter wrote about the destruction of the elements by fire and then a new heavens and a new earth: Will this literally be a new heaven and a new earth? Is this figurative? I realize that as long as we are with our Lord in eternity it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if there was no reason for it this passage wouldn't exist. Any comments?

For what it's worth I believe the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65 refers to the NT age, but I am not convinced that the 2 Peter passage does.

same here

 

[holyfool33]

I feel that there will be a new earth after Satan is let loose after The Milinuium and his army is Crushed the second Resurection happans the evil are cast in to hell along with death and al the rest of God's enimes. Then God creates a new earth after the old one is destroyed by fire this could be very well the old earth's core implodeing but who knows. Then a new earth pure and new free of sin will be created with the New Jeruslum (yes I believe a giant cubical New Jersulam will be on the earth.) On the earth where the redeemed will worship God for all eternity in new hevanlly bodies. Where we will see God face to face and there will trully be nither jew nor gentile male nor female only one kind of people the rdeamed.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Pyramid Instead

(yes I believe a giant cubical New Jersulam will be on the earth.)

Hello Friend,

Could that Cubicle actually be Pyramid shaped instead? I was at an apologetics class and saw a video that pointed this possibility out.

Regards,

YP

 

[holyfool33]

(yes I believe a giant cubical New Jersulam will be on the earth.)

Hello Friend,

Could that Cubicle actually be Pyramid shaped instead? I was at an apologetics class and saw a video that pointed this possibility out.

Regards,

YP

It could be apyermid Walvoord made a good case for it being a Pyramid in The Millennial Kingdom. but I feel it makes more sense for it to be a cube becauseofhow it is laid out in revelation and also that the Holy of Holies in Tha Tabernacle was cubeacal. The New Jerusulm will hold Christ the true Holy of Holies useing typolgy it only makes sense that it would be a cube at least that's what I think

 

[AV1611]

I feel that there will be a new earth after Satan is let loose after The Milinuium and his army is Crushed the second Resurection happans the evil are cast in to hell along with death and al the rest of God's enimes. Then God creates a new earth after the old one is destroyed by fire this could be very well the old earth's core implodeing but who knows. Then a new earth pure and new free of sin will be created with the New Jeruslum (yes I believe a giant cubical New Jersulam will be on the earth.) On the earth where the redeemed will worship God for all eternity in new hevanlly bodies. Where we will see God face to face and there will trully be nither jew nor gentile male nor female only one kind of people the rdeamed.

I think you have been reading too much of J N Darby