The Presbyterian Layman reports that the PCUSA may change the wording of the Heidelberg to remove the express condemnation of homosexuality.
The Layman Online
The Layman Online
PCUSA may change Heidelberg Catechism
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InevitablyReformed
Puritan Board Freshman
How tolerant of them.
Gage Browning
Puritan Board Freshman
Translation problem?
It's hard to believe that they would actually change the Heidelberg based on the fact that it has "translation problems"...I wish they would just say they hate it and then change it. Don't present it as somehow linguistically flawed. They should just change it and then change their Bible's as well, for the same type of language is there.
It's hard to believe that they would actually change the Heidelberg based on the fact that it has "translation problems"...I wish they would just say they hate it and then change it. Don't present it as somehow linguistically flawed. They should just change it and then change their Bible's as well, for the same type of language is there.
How would they be able to change it? They would have to rewrite the entire document, which is what they do with Scripture. I hope that the PCUSA looses twice as many people and congregations in 2008 along with the ECUSA and the Anglican Church of Canada. They have simply become apostate.
Amen, brother. I have never heard anyone make this statement before, but American Presbyterians changed the WCOF, so why not allow everyone else the same opportunity to change the standards.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I think the English Congregationalists (Savoy) and Baptists (LBCF) changed the WCF before the Americans.
Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Heck, they think I'm nuts for saying that when you change the Liturgy, you change the theology. This is the scholarship of kindergarden grads. I wish I had alot of Power in my denomination so I could throw these people out! I say Power and not influence because this is a time for it.
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
Correct, but they had the sense to identify the ammended confession as a new document.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
It is saddening to see a once great biblical Reformed denomination leave everything it stood for, one by one.
While this has been a slow train coming, the appalling behavior more than a generation ago, in 1973, led the PCA to separate in order to remain a continuing church. It is summarized in Mr Keyes brief history here:
Keyes' Brief History
You may also be aware that the PCUSA is rapidly losing membership now, more than 50,000 members this past year alone.
However, there are still many faithful brothers and sisters still in that denomination who need our prayers. Here is a list of those departing churches and where they are going:
http://www.layman.org/layman/Resources/churches-leaving-chart.htm
While this has been a slow train coming, the appalling behavior more than a generation ago, in 1973, led the PCA to separate in order to remain a continuing church. It is summarized in Mr Keyes brief history here:
Keyes' Brief History
You may also be aware that the PCUSA is rapidly losing membership now, more than 50,000 members this past year alone.
However, there are still many faithful brothers and sisters still in that denomination who need our prayers. Here is a list of those departing churches and where they are going:
http://www.layman.org/layman/Resources/churches-leaving-chart.htm
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Grymir;
Isn't the layman such a paper, that shows the truth to the average pew sitter what's going on in leadership within the PC(USA) so they can join voices and forces in order to speak out against such things as a whole?
Maybe more folks need to head to the GA and speak out..contact their pastors and tell them VOTE against these changes..
Isn't the layman such a paper, that shows the truth to the average pew sitter what's going on in leadership within the PC(USA) so they can join voices and forces in order to speak out against such things as a whole?
Maybe more folks need to head to the GA and speak out..contact their pastors and tell them VOTE against these changes..
Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Hi BJClark! Yes, there are some of us who are taking a stand in our local church's. Some in my area have gone whole hog liberal, but mine isn't. I have a teaching position, and I speak out and explain what is happening, and how it's us little people that make the difference. We try and get good people, but they must be 'approved', and the few we get are overrode in General Assembly by the 'moderator' and others in control. That's why I wanted power, pure power for once. I won't be corrupted. 
Casey
Puritan Board Junior
This is probably off topic, but "bad precedent" to change the confession? What if the American Presbyterian churches that have the modified Confession find their revisions more biblical? The Confession itself states that no church council is beyond the possibility of error -- obviously implied there is the Westminster Standards themselves. That being the case, it seems to me that it's in fact unconfessional to think that they ought never to be changed. I'm also not happy that the PC(USA) is changing the Catechism, but it's not because they're changing it, rather, it's because they're changing it in an unbiblical direction. I'd rather have them change it to their liking rather than believing one thing in practice and having something different on paper. It's only right that denominations modify their standards according to how they believe the Bible ought to be understood.
Is anyone as shocked as I am? This means at least several of the big-whig leaders within the PCUSA are not only aware of the Heidelberg, they also read it!
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
I agree without reservation that confessions are human documents that must be open to challange, the point that I was attempting to make is that by setting the bar for changes to such documents too low removes the benefits of having such confesions and I do believe that in any event it is better to have a new document rather than to change an existing one (even if the change is seen to be minor, and if it is minor then why make it?).
One benefit of confessions are that politics, fads and fashions can be seen in their proper context, incorporating changes weakens such a benefit.
Another problem is that ideally confessions should be drawn up by the church and amended by the church. For a single denomination to undertake such a task can be sectarian.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Eh, huh, . . . corrected.
Actually, whether or not anyone changed a confession is less important than the change made. Semper reformanda can be interpreted to imply that each generation must re-examine the framing and phrasing of its doctrine so as to capture the specific affirmations and denials required by the defects in the culture at the moment.
In this case, the watering down of the HC is done for the all-too-obvious reason of PC and the current downgrade in the mainline denominations. What some are dealing with in the PCUSA is sickeningly familiar and similar to my reasons for leaving the ABCUSA.
Last year they lost a congregation to my denomination. We're scooping up our share.
May you receive many more spoils, brother.
Eh, huh, . . . corrected.
Actually, whether or not anyone changed a confession is less important than the change made. Semper reformanda can be interpreted to imply that each generation must re-examine the framing and phrasing of its doctrine so as to capture the specific affirmations and denials required by the defects in the culture at the moment.
In this case, the watering down of the HC is done for the all-too-obvious reason of PC and the current downgrade in the mainline denominations. What some are dealing with in the PCUSA is sickeningly familiar and similar to my reasons for leaving the ABCUSA.
Amen. It depends on why it is done. It might, I believe, be done legitimately for either of two reasons: the first is reality. The Belgic Confession used to (maybe still does) state that the books of Chronicles "are commonly called Paralipomenon" This statement makes the whole confession look ridiculous. The second legitimate reason is scholarship. For example, if the Heidelberg were written now they probably would not divide the decalogue as they do since there is reason to believe that each of the two tablets contained the entire decalogue.
However, it appears that taking out the negatives regarding homosexuality cannot be defended on either of these counts. It is a change of serious substance which either of the examples above would not be.
This is my
jfschultz
Puritan Board Junior
I googled Heidelberg catechism, checked a number of them, and have not found one that lists homosexuality in question 87. (This included CRTA, WTS, URC, PRCA, and CCEL) So perhaps it is a translation error.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Heidelberg
They voted to authorize a new translation
GA News: Heidelberg-Catechism-to-be-retranslated
They voted to authorize a new translation
GA News: Heidelberg-Catechism-to-be-retranslated
Pop the Reformer
Puritan Board Freshman
RE: PCUSA may change Heidelberg Catechism ...
Sounds about right for them. Doesn't surprise me in the least. So how should we respond to this nonsense? But to, "Watch and pray so that you (we) too will not fall ino temptatin...." Matt 26:41a
Sounds about right for them. Doesn't surprise me in the least. So how should we respond to this nonsense? But to, "Watch and pray so that you (we) too will not fall ino temptatin...." Matt 26:41a
Seb
Puritan Board Junior
I've looked hard and I can't find any version of the H.C. that has the term "homosexual perversion" in the answer for Q 87.
It looks like the PCUSA is already using a modified (homemade) translation of the H.C.?
As liberal as the PCUSA is, could it be, when they originally 'translated' their version of H.C., that someone was overzealous with this particular wording in the answer?
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
They could change the HC all they want, it still will not change reality. It is not like they listen to any other of the confessions anyway.
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