Women directing Worship Team

[Pilgrim]

If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.

I am sure that the elders could give hymns to her to play. She is there in a servant role is she not? If the Trinity Hymnal or a sound source was used, then free selection within these confines would not introduce heresy (i.e. she picks from the hymnal and thus is kept within boundaries). If the pastor requests a hymn, is she going to committ a takeover and force Fanny Crosby on the people? It sounds like she is in a serving role and this doesn't seem a big deal.

FYI there are several Fanny Crosby hymns in the Trinity Hymnal although at least one of them, "To God Be the Glory," has been altered to make it Calvinistic.

 

[Scott1]

In our church, the "worship team" leads in singing. A man leads up front and occassionally reads from Scripture. He leads in choosing the songs subject to advance Session approval. Half or more of the worship team behind him is female.

Women are members of the choir, band and orchestra and sometimes do solos.

Women lead the children's choirs (up through about junior high).

I have never sensed any violation of God's Word and it works beautifully. Everyone using their talents, no "superstars" only very high quality worship.

 

[toddpedlar]

What if no man wants to/will lead?

Then such a 'church' has more problems than whether a woman is leading worship.

 

[21st Century Calvinist]

What if no man wants to/will lead?

Then such a 'church' has more problems than whether a woman is leading worship.

 

[py3ak]

What is "high quality worship"?

 

[JBaldwin]

I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.

Let me say again, in different words, what I said above. Musicians should be theologians who know the Scriptures, love the Lord and understand what is needed to guide worship. Churches who ignore the input of godly, talented musicians are cutting off part of the body of Christ In my humble opinion. It doesn't mean that they have to get up and lead, but they certainly have a lot to contribute to worship, and it would be wrong for a pastor or elder to not make use of that talent when God makes it available to the church.

 

[Augusta]

Joy, with all due respect, God is a better judge of what he wants done in worship to him. Doctrine is just the sort of thing God would look more at than how you sound or whether it's hard to sing. You can be as sincere as the day is long but if it is not what he has commanded it will not please God.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.

Let me say again, in different words, what I said above. Musicians should be theologians who know the Scriptures, love the Lord and understand what is needed to guide worship. Churches who ignore the input of godly, talented musicians are cutting off part of the body of Christ In my humble opinion. It doesn't mean that they have to get up and lead, but they certainly have a lot to contribute to worship, and it would be wrong for a pastor or elder to not make use of that talent when God makes it available to the church.

I tend to agree, for what it's worth, but you know that will be the minority opinion here.

1 Corinthians 14
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Doesn't say anything about singing. But I'd guess the "keep silent" part would cover that for some...I suppose...

It appears that the Church of the Corinthians was infected with this
fault too, that the talkativeness of women was allowed a place in the
sacred assembly, or rather that the fullest liberty was given to it.
Hence he forbids them to speak in public, either for the purpose of
teaching or of prophesying. This, however, we must understand as
referring to ordinary service, or where there is a Church in a
regularly constituted state; for a necessity may occur of such a nature
as to require that a woman should speak in public; but Paul has merely
in view what is becoming in a duly regulated assembly.

34. Let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. What connection
has the object that he has in view with the subjection under which the
law places women? “For what is there,” some one will say, “to hinder
their being in subjection, and yet at the same time teaching?” I
answer, that the office of teaching [877] is a superiority in the
Church, and is, consequently, inconsistent with subjection. For how
unseemly a thing it were, that one who is under subjection to one of
the members, should preside [878] over the entire body! It is therefore
an argument from things inconsistent — If the woman is under
subjection, she is, consequently, prohibited from authority to teach in
public. [879] And unquestionably, [880] wherever even natural propriety
has been maintained, women have in all ages been excluded from the
public management of affairs. It is the dictate of common sense, that
female government is improper and unseemly. Nay more, while originally
they had permission given to them at Rome to plead before a court,
[881] the effrontery of Caia Afrania [882] led to their being
interdicted, even from this. Paul’s reasoning, however, is simple —
that authority to teach is not suitable to the station that a woman
occupies, because, if she teaches, she presides over all the men, while
it becomes her to be under subjection.

Calvin commentaries

 

[Christusregnat]

I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.

The argument from "giftings" is a slippery slope. It is not an argument from Scripture to experience, but from experience to Scripture.

Please show, biblically, why 1. There should be "worship teams", and 2. Why they are not all male (as appears to be the case with the Levitical orders: the sons of Levi).

Cheers,

Adam

 

[Christusregnat]

What is "high quality worship"?

Suround Sound, Electric Guitars, 15-piece drum set, celebrity visitors, and motorcycles on state...

OOPS WRONG DISCUSSION BOARD!!!

Adam

 

[staythecourse]

a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music.

I am not convinced music is that important to God in worship, especially if his early church is an example. I am shamelessly telling you all what I just spent the last 45 minutes doing. I did not sing the hymns in Trinity, I read them and more easily sucked the marrow from them than with song. I often speak a hymn at church to keep from getting lost in the music of it and without me heart being in it. I have sung in choirs often and have a voice so it's not my lack of ability (still poor as compared to greats)

The early church was more bare-bones in ornamentation than we are today, and chanting hymns was normal. Here is some material I could find which summarizes some good information to consider in regards to how musical our early fathers were in worship.

The singing of the early Christians was simple and art less. Augustine describes the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius as "more like speaking than singing." Musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp were associated so intimately with the sensuous heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless perform dances of the degenerate theatre and circus, that it is easy to understand the prejudice against their use in the Christian worship.

"A Christian maiden," says Jerome, "ought not even to know what a lyre or a flute is, or what it is used for." Clement of Alexandria writes: "Only one instrument do we use, viz., the word of peace wherewith we honor God, no longer the old psaltery, trumpet, drum, and flute."

Chrysostom expresses himself in like vein: "David formerly sang in psalms, also we sing today with him; he had a lyre with lifeless strings, the Church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre, with a different tone, indeed, but with a more accordant piety."

I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Any thoughts?

 

[skellam]

Let me say again, in different words, what I said above. Musicians should be theologians who know the Scriptures, love the Lord and understand what is needed to guide worship. Churches who ignore the input of godly, talented musicians are cutting off part of the body of Christ In my humble opinion. It doesn't mean that they have to get up and lead, but they certainly have a lot to contribute to worship, and it would be wrong for a pastor or elder to not make use of that talent when God makes it available to the church.

It is, however, not the biblical responsibility of musicians to structure and lead the worship of God's people. I think pastors shoud seek the counsel of musicians in the church to help the people of God sing the songs as best as they can be sung by the congregation. In our church we have songs that we sing on a fairly regular basis that everyone knows well. We have recently introduced a combined Psalter/Hymnal that our teaching elder put a great deal of effort in to producing himself over the past couple years that combines the Trinity Hymnal and the RP Book of Psalms in an attempt to make the singing of Psalms more prominent in our worship. The tunes for some of the new psalms are at times difficult and unfamiliar. A couple of the women in our church are extraordinarily musically gifted and the session arranged for them to teach a monthly Singing School where the people of the church come together and are taught by these women to sing the songs well, including some beautiful harmony. The gifts of the women are used to bring glory to God in worship. In corporate worship though, we sing as one body to our Lord led by the pastor or elder who is given the privilege and the duty to direct God's people in worship. This is a responsibility that the leaders in the church should not hand off or delegate to others (male or female).

 

[JBaldwin]

I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.

The argument from "giftings" is a slippery slope. It is not an argument from Scripture to experience, but from experience to Scripture.

Please show, biblically, why 1. There should be "worship teams", and 2. Why they are not all male (as appears to be the case with the Levitical orders: the sons of Levi).

Cheers,

Adam

While I realize I am in a minority on this board when it comes to music in worship, I am not really arguing for worship teams, and I don't think I said anything about it my posts. What I am saying is that I think it is a big mistake for pastors and elders, especially those who know next to nothing about music, to ignore talented and godly musicians and try to do a job they are not necessarily gifted to do.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

What is "high quality worship"?

Good Question

 

[beej6]

So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.
A woman may play piano, solo, as a accompaniment to the congregational singing. (No, I am not EP, but IP - "inclusive psalmody". Nor am I against instruments in worship, though I believe that if a congregation is strong enough to sing without them, praise God for that!)
If there is a defined hymnal/psalter approved by the elders, a music director of either gender may select hymns, though ideally even these should be approved by the pastor. (There is at least one "hymn" in the Trinity Hymnal which should NOT be sung in a Christian worship service.)

As a former music director (male) who led a "worship team" in an OPC (rare), we had a limited repertoire of hymns (~ 50), and they were sound enough that any were appropriate for any service.

 

[Mushroom]

This may be a flawed argument of the exception making the rule, but the division, ego wars, and "entertainment" style of worship I've seen arise over music and worship teams almost convinces me we ought to toss everything but a capella EP. One man's (or woman's) talent is another man's noise.

I've always wondered why musicians aren't positioned at the back of the hall, or at least in a sunken pit, to avoid the temptation to want to 'star' in the production.

Of course, I'm tone deaf, bereft of talent in voice or instrument, and probably just envious. Even monotonal chants would be out of my range of ability.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

This may be a flawed argument of the exception making the rule, but the division, ego wars, and "entertainment" style of worship I've seen arise over music and worship teams almost convinces me we ought to toss everything but a capella EP. One man's (or woman's) talent is another man's noise.

I've always wondered why musicians aren't positioned at the back of the hall, or at least in a sunken pit, to avoid the temptation to want to 'star' in the production.

Of course, I'm tone deaf, bereft of talent in voice or instrument, and probably just envious. Even monotonal chants would be out of my range of ability.

"Traditionally" Church architecture in most Presbyterian churches had Choir Lofts in the rear of the sanctuary. Now it is either impractical or too expensive to build these lofts in newer church construction.

However we should still put choirs in the rear in some manner.

 

[Scott1]

What is "high quality worship"?

Good question, hard to define. Essentially, it is worship that leads to God, not toward the persons "leading" it. No person stands out, but God stands out.

 

[TimV]

A couple good points have been raised. One is that if a hymn book has already been approved by the Elders then the picking of the songs is already fairly delegated. But the matching point is that the songs normally are meant to complement the sermon, so why would a woman be involved in picking them on a normal, practical level?

In the OP church we're attending my mom plays the piano and is accompanied by a skilled lady flutist who's dropped some hints towards introducing one of her daughters to one of my sons, so I'm in a bit restricted anyway as to the public airing of my opinion on the matter...

 

[skellam]

What is "high quality worship"?

I think the OPC Directory for Public Worship gives us a good idea of what 'high quality' worship is:

* A service of public worship is not merely a gathering of God's children with each other but before all else a meeting of the triune God with his chosen people. God is present in public worship not only by virtue of the divine omnipresence but, much more intimately, as the faithful covenant Saviour. The Lord Jesus Christ said: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

* The end of public worship is the glory of God. His people should engage in all its several parts with an eye single to his glory. Public worship has as its aim the building of Christ's church by the perfecting of the saints and the addition to its membership of such as are being saved—all to the glory of God. Through public worship on the Lord's Day Christians should learn to serve God all the days of the week in their every activity, remembering, whether they eat or drink or whatever they do, to do all to the glory of God.

* Public worship is rightly said to be divine because God is its beginning and its end. It is of him and through him and unto him.

* Public worship is Christian when the worshippers recognize that Christ is the Mediator by whom alone they can come unto God, when they honor Christ as the Head of the church, who rules over public worship, and when their worship is an expression of their faith in Christ and of their love for him.

* Public worship must be performed in spirit and in truth. Externalism and hypocrisy stand condemned. The forms of public worship have value only when they serve to express the inner reverence of the worshipper and his sincere devotion to the true and living God. And only those whose hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit are capable of such reverence and devotion.

* The Lord Jesus Christ has prescribed no fixed forms for public worship but, in the interest of life and power in worship, has given his church a large measure of liberty in this matter. It may not be forgotten, however, that there is true liberty only where the rules of God's Word are observed and the Spirit of the Lord is, that all things must be done decently and in order, and that God's people should serve him with reverence and in the beauty of holiness. From its beginning to its end a service of public worship should be characterized by that simplicity which is an evidence of sincerity and by that beauty and dignity which are a manifestation of holiness.

 

[toddpedlar]

So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.

Why the 'formal supervision' requirement? What does that change?

 

[Tumbleweed]

The one thing we surely agree on is that the lives of believers, individually and corporately, (Note, Joy: I'm addicted to commas!), are driven by a love of scriptural principle, rather than a pharisaic obsession with details. My dear wife is an appropriate example in that she wears a headcovering in the assembly, not from legal compulsion, but because she is silently stating her belief and desire that men must lead according to God's creative order.
Now, this same woman takes responsibility for many things in our church, and we are almost too dependent on her, but at no point does she ever cross the line into usurpation, because she loves God and the wisdom of His principles. The danger, which others have alluded to, is when talent trumps holiness at the point where the appointment to ministry is first made. The right person can always be trusted, but no amount of fine-tuning the rules will control the wrong one.

 

[JBaldwin]

A couple good points have been raised. One is that if a hymn book has already been approved by the Elders then the picking of the songs is already fairly delegated. But the matching point is that the songs normally are meant to complement the sermon, so why would a woman be involved in picking them on a normal, practical level?

In my church, the pastor has delegated that responsibility to me, because he admits he is almost clueless when it comes to choosing music, though from time to time he tells me he wants us to sing a particular hymn.

When it comes to music complimenting the sermon, the pastor tells me what passage of Scripture he is preaching each week, and I spend a lot of time in prayer and Bible study on my own before I choose the music. Then I send him a list of the songs and the words for his approval. This works well, and it is unusual when the music and sermon do not compliment one another.

 

[beej6]

So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.

Why the 'formal supervision' requirement? What does that change?

I assume that such a leader is a member of the church, so under the authority of the session. 'Formal supervision' just means a bit more active...

 

[DMcFadden]

In my church, the pastor has delegated that responsibility to me, because he admits he is almost clueless when it comes to choosing music, though from time to time he tells me he wants us to sing a particular hymn.

When it comes to music complimenting the sermon, the pastor tells me what passage of Scripture he is preaching each week, and I spend a lot of time in prayer and Bible study on my own before I choose the music. Then I send him a list of the songs and the words for his approval. This works well, and it is unusual when the music and sermon do not compliment one another.

WOW! I wish you were on my staff when I was pastoring!

 

[panta dokimazete]

Or on my Worship Team

 

[Tim]

I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.

If you participate in family worship, you will be practicing singing just as you 'practice' your understanding of scripture/theology when you read and study your Bible.

But people neglect singing in their own private/family worship and then complain that they don't know how to do it. Then what is asked for is an elaborate 'worship team' with multiple instruments and singers because "we need that".

This neglect sometimes extends to pastors, I think, and then they feel they must appoint a whole music department to take care of that element of worship.

Pastors/elders are the worship leaders. No other worship/spiritual leadership position exists. There is a profound clarity in the Bible regarding this issue.

That is my blunt two cents!

I desire that all would see the blessedness in simple worship.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.

If you participate in family worship, you will be practicing singing just as you 'practice' your understanding of scripture/theology when you read and study your Bible.

But people neglect singing in their own private/family worship and then complain that they don't know how to do it. Then what is asked for is an elaborate 'worship team' with multiple instruments and singers because "we need that".

This neglect sometimes extends to pastors, I think, and then they feel they must appoint a whole music department to take care of that element of worship.

Pastors/elders are the worship leaders. No other worship/spiritual leadership position exists. There is a profound clarity in the Bible regarding this issue.

That is my blunt two cents!

I desire that all would see the blessedness in simple worship.

&

 

[panta dokimazete]

I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.

As a "master" of singing and music - I respectfully disagree with your premise. Singing (and music in general) is a skill that should be developed in service to God. Those that have been given those abilities have a responsibility to lead and teach, so that the musical worship of God should be skillfully accomplished.

1 Chronicles 15:22
Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was in charge of the singing; he gave instruction in singing because he was skillful.

Psalm 33:3
Sing to Him a new song;Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

Psalm 47:7
For God is the King of all the earth;Sing praises with a skillful psalm.

Consider David, "A MAN AFTER MY (the Lord's) HEART":

1 Samuel 16:18
Then one of the young men said, "Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite who is a skillful musician, a mighty man of valor, a warrior, one prudent in speech, and a handsome man; and the LORD is with him."

Without his skill and talent turned to the service of God, there would be quite a gap right in the middle of Scripture...

 

[TimV]

I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Some years ago I went through and counted how many times that "stuff" is mentioned in Scripture in the context of worship, and several times the language is actually one of ordering, commanding, the use of "stuff". I think it's about 70 times.

And besides, it's not just the OT; prophetic Scripture tells us that "stuff" is used in Heaven!

No offense, and I do see where you're coming from; there are certainly times when church practices take the eye off the target.