The Romans 7 Man - who is he?

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MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
Who is the Romans 7 man?

Is it Paul before he was a Christian.?

Is it Paul after becoming a Christian?

Is it Paul before becoming a "better" Christian?




13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!


My answer....It is not Paul at all, it is a hypothetical (relational) man that Paul inserted in as part of his argument from Romans late chapter 5 through chapter 8.


Note: I am not here to promote an exact and specific view, but only to get your opinions, and then defend my "contemplating" of a view and test it up and against your views...and wait for the possible dismantling of what I am contemplating....:)
 
The classic Reformed (and correct) view is that it is Paul as a Christian. Viz. Calvin:

14. For we know that the law, etc. He now begins more closely to compare
the law with what man is, that it may be more clearly understood whence
the evil of death proceeds. He then sets before us an example in a
regenerate man, in whom the remnants of the flesh are wholly contrary to
the law of the Lord, while the spirit would gladly obey it. But first, as we
have said, he makes only a comparison between nature and the law. Since
in human things there is no greater discord than between spirit and flesh,
the law being spiritual and man carnal, what agreement can there be
between the natural man and the law? Even the same as between darkness
and light. But by calling the law spiritual, he not only means, as some
expound the passage, that it requires the inward affections of the heart; but
that, by way of contrast, it has a contrary import to the word carnal. f217
These interpreters give this explanation, “The law is spiritual, that is, it
binds not only the feet and hands as to external works, but regards the
feelings of the heart, and requires the real fear of God.”

15. For what I do I know not, etc. He now comes to a more particular case,
that of a man already regenerated; f219 in whom both the things which he
had in view appear more clearly; and these were, — the great discord there
is between the Law of God and the natural man, — and how the law does
not of itself produce death. For since the carnal man rushes into sin with
the whole propensity of his mind, he seems to sin with such a free choice,
as though it were in his power to govern himself; so that a most pernicious
opinion has prevailed almost among all men — that man, by his own
natural strength, without the aid of Divine grace, can choose what he
pleases. But though the will of a faithful man is led to good by the Spirit of
God, yet in him the corruption of nature appears conspicuously; for it
obstinately resists and leads to what is contrary. Hence the case of a
regenerated man is the most suitable; for by this you may know how much
is the contrariety between our nature and the righteousness of the law.
From this case, also, a proof as to the other clause may more fitly be
sought, than from the mere consideration of human nature; for the law, as
it produces only death in a man wholly carnal, is in him more easily
impeached, for it is doubtful whence the evil proceeds. In a regenerate man
it brings forth salutary fruits; and hence it appears, that it is the flesh only
that prevents it from giving life: so far it is from producing death of itself.
That the whole, then, of this reasoning may be more fully and more
distinctly understood, we must observe, that this conflict, of which the
Apostle speaks, does not exist in man before he is renewed by the Spirit of
God: for man, left to his own nature, is wholly borne along by his lusts
without any resistance; for though the ungodly are tormented by the stings
of conscience, and cannot take such delight in their vices, but that they
have some taste of bitterness; yet you cannot hence conclude, either that
evil is hated, or that good is loved by them; only the Lord permits them to
be thus tormented, in order to show to them in a measure his judgment; but
not to imbue them either with the love of righteousness or with the hatred
of sin.

17. Now it is no more I who do it, etc. This is not the pleading of one
excusing himself, as though he was blameless, as the case is with many
triflers who think that they have a sufficient defense to cover all their
wickedness, when they cast the blame on the flesh; but it is a declaration,
by which he shows how very far he dissented from his own flesh in his
spiritual feeling; for the faithful are carried along in their obedience to God
with such fervour of spirit that they deny the flesh.
This passage also clearly shows, that Paul speaks here of none but of the
godly, who have been already born again; for as long as man remains like
himself, whatsoever he may be, he is justly deemed corrupt; but Paul here
denies that he is wholly possessed by sin; nay, he declares himself to be
exempt from its bondage, as though he had said, that sin only dwelt in
some part of his soul, while with an earnest feeling of heart he strove for
and aspired after the righteousness of God, and clearly proved that he had
the law of God engraven within him
 
If Romans chapter 7 is the "christian" man...then who is the Romans chapter 8 man?

Note: I am not saying that the Romans 7 man is not a christian, per se...but...is only an example of "sin and death" that we can all relate to...he, every christian relates to, as a man held captive...but he is put there on purpose by Paul, not to describe the christian man, but to describe the "LAW" of sin and death..to establish the "two laws" argument. Being content as a Romans 7 man, an example of sin and death, would be a grave error as opposed to the christian commandment of being the Romans 8 man.
 
My answer....It is not Paul at all, it is a hypothetical (relational) man that Paul inserted in as part of his argument from Romans late chapter 5 through chapter 8.


Note: I am not here to promote an exact and specific view, but only to get your opinions, and then defend my "contemplating" of a view and test it up and against your views...and wait for the possible dismantling of what I am contemplating....:)

O.k., I'll bite. It is Paul after his conversion. But A hypothetical man? Would this man be Saved or Lost?
 
If Romans chapter 7 is the "christian" man...then who is the Romans chapter 8 man?

Note: I am not saying that the Romans 7 man is not a christian, per se...but...is only an example of "sin and death" that we can all relate to...he, every christian relates to, as a man held captive...but he is put there on purpose by Paul, not to describe the christian man, but to describe the "LAW" of sin and death..to establish the "two laws" argument. Being content as a Romans 7 man, an example of sin and death, would be a grave error as opposed to the christian commandment of being the Romans 8 man.

What's the reason you're going after this speculative response to the text? Paul seems quite clearly to be speaking of real Christian experience in both Romans 7 and Romans 8 - Romans 7 outlines the sin within, and the struggle of the believer to do what he knows is right despite the fleshly desires that still plague him - he cries out at the end of the chapter, recognizing the only salvation from all that is Christ the Lord alone - and in Romans 8:1 and following we see the true comfort only Christ's finished atonement and imputed righteousness can bring us. Both men are Christian - and they are TRUE men - Paul is both of those men, and in that juxtaposition we see the already-not yet flesh vs. spirit battle that can be won only one way; a battle that rages inside all believers. The fight against sin is daily fought and never completely over until the last day.
 
Would this man be Saved or Lost?

Is this man Saved...???

Saved from what exactly?

This Rom. 7 man is clearly not saved from sin and death...in fact this man is given as an explicit example of one who is very much bound by the law of sin and death...this man is given as evidence by Paul that there is such a law as the law of sin and death.

23 but I see in my members another law
Rom. 7


So again, if by "saved" you mean saved from the law of sin and death...then no, this man is not saved...he is the epitome of one who is bound by the law of sin and death. This man needs deliverence (he shall not be content with his current position).
This deliverence is explained by Paul in Romans 8
and it starts this way:

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death

So...if the Romans 7 man were the example of a "delivered" man (or saved man)...then why would Paul suggest that the Rom.7 man needs dileverence?
 
Because we still deal with the flesh. Otherwise you would have to extend your argument to Perfectionism.
 
Would this man be Saved or Lost?

Is this man Saved...???

Saved from what exactly?

This Rom. 7 man is clearly not saved from sin and death...in fact this man is given as an explicit example of one who is very much bound by the law of sin and death...this man is given as evidence by Paul that there is such a law as the law of sin and death.

23 but I see in my members another law
Rom. 7


So again, if by "saved" you mean saved from the law of sin and death...then no, this man is not saved...he is the epitome of one who is bound by the law of sin and death. This man needs deliverence (he shall not be content with his current position).
This deliverence is explained by Paul in Romans 8
and it starts this way:

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death

So...if the Romans 7 man were the example of a "delivered" man (or saved man)...then why would Paul suggest that the Rom.7 man needs dileverence?

A couple of points are necessary here. First of all, the eschatological tension between the already and the not yet factors in here: the conflict between the old age and the new age finds its individual concomitant in the battle in the believer's life between the old man (which is enslaved to sin) and the new man (which is enslaved to Christ).

Second point: the phrase "inner man" (see verse 22) is ONLY used of true belief in Paul. Therefore, the man in Romans 7 CANNOT be an unbeliever.

Third point: you are forgetting the summary of chapter 7 in verses 24-25. After asking the question of deliverance, he gives us the answer in vs. 25a, where thanksgiving is given to God above. And THEN, AFTER having thanked God for the deliverance we have in Jesus Christ, he sums up the whole chapter by saying that he is enslaved both to God and to sin at the same time. One CANNOT be enslaved to God without being a true believer.

Fourth point: Paul throughout uses present tense verbs of being, which strongly points to Paul's present experience. Simul justus et peccator (at the same time just and sinner) was Luther's claim, not that he was happy with the situation. Of course we shouldn't be happy with this situation! That's the whole point! That is why chapter 7 comes after chapter 6. We should ardently desire better things and more holiness.
 
The Romans 7 man is saved from the wrath of God. Still going to struggle with sin, still going to feel an urge to 'return to Egypt' but saved from the wrath of God because of the work of Christ (ref. Gal. 2:20)
 
Paul is painting the picture of God's work of sanctification in us as we struggle with the flesh. He is showing that sanctification is by faith also, not just justification. The saved man in chapter 7 hates his sin (lost people love sin) and in attempting to overcome it realizes that he can ONLY rest in Christ (chapter 8).
 
It seems that the view that the man in Rom 7 is a non Christian, which has typically been an Arminian position, is gaining ground in some Calvinistic circles, especially with some who identify with New Covenant Theology.
 
Paul seems quite clearly to be speaking of real Christian experience in both Romans 7 and Romans 8 - Romans 7 outlines the sin within
<--emph. moses'

Why does Paul need to argue the point that Christians (or non Christians) are sinners? Why would Paul need to argue that Christians struggle with sin?

Wow Paul,,,thanks for the great insight, your right, I am a sinner and I struggle with sin...whopdy do!
Perhaps my sarcasm is uncalled for.

But...why would Paul make such an elementary experiential point (that everyone knows) at this part of his very technical argument that runs through chapters 6-8?
 
Paul seems quite clearly to be speaking of real Christian experience in both Romans 7 and Romans 8 - Romans 7 outlines the sin within
<--emph. moses'

Why does Paul need to argue the point that Christians (or non Christians) are sinners? Why would Paul need to argue that Christians struggle with sin?

Wow Paul,,,thanks for the great insight, your right, I am a sinner and I struggle with sin...whopdy do!
Perhaps my sarcasm is uncalled for.

But...why would Paul make such an elementary experiential point (that everyone knows) at this part of his very technical argument that runs through chapters 6-8?

The same reason that John makes the same argument in 1 John 1. Because people are prone to argue that they are "past sin" as some kind of higher Christian experience. It is what fuels about half of the visible Church this day.

Why would Paul want to make some kind of "hypothetical point" here? What purpose would that serve? It makes no sense to me.
 
Exactly so Manley, Romans 7 is a description of the utter ruin of the flesh and the flesh can do nothing to battle against it. Only the Spirit can cover the weakness of the flesh. There is a great quote from John Owen from "The Mortification of Sin", here it is:

Mortification from a self-strength, carried on by ways of self-invention, unto the end of a self-righteousness, is the soul and substance of all false religion in the world.

Paul is painting the picture of God's work of sanctification in us as we struggle with the flesh. He is showing that sanctification is by faith also, not just justification. The saved man in chapter 7 hates his sin (lost people love sin) and in attempting to overcome it realizes that he can ONLY rest in Christ (chapter 8).
 
Paul seems quite clearly to be speaking of real Christian experience in both Romans 7 and Romans 8 - Romans 7 outlines the sin within
<--emph. moses'

Why does Paul need to argue the point that Christians (or non Christians) are sinners? Why would Paul need to argue that Christians struggle with sin?

Wow Paul,,,thanks for the great insight, your right, I am a sinner and I struggle with sin...whopdy do!
Perhaps my sarcasm is uncalled for.

But...why would Paul make such an elementary experiential point (that everyone knows) at this part of his very technical argument that runs through chapters 6-8?

Because its VITAL for the believer to learn to REST in Christ alone for sanctification. Many get saved and then stop trusting Jesus for holiness and start trying to be holy through fleshly means (perfectionism). The path to holiness is only by knowing that sin is still working in me and clinging desperately to Christ every moment. Consequently, the holiest people always see themselves as the most wicked.
 
Umm, Needs or Has dileverence? A lost man does not think like the Ch. 7 man. Vs. 25 makes it clear (at least to me) that it's a saved person. Paul talks about serving the Law of God and the law of sin. That is the struggle going on in the previous verses. And the Christian struggle. The lost don't care about sin in the way that Ch. 7 portrays. Plus the present tense of the verbs. Plus, in Vrs. 23 only the Justified would have 'another law' in them.

But weither the Ch7. man is justified or lost has been raging for centuries. And I ain't gonna add anything to the 'discussion' that hasn't been said already, no matter how brilliant I fancy myself. So I want to also bring up the 'hypothetical' aspect of what you put forth. With Paul using "I" so much, how could that be?

You asked "saved from what?" Saved is a venacular term for Justification.
 
I can see why this discussion would come up. In my days amongst the Keswick folks, Romans 7 was ignored, chopped out, neglected, etc. When we were required to memorize huge portions of Romans, we skipped right over Romans 7 and went straight on to 8 as if it didn't exist.

I have to agree that Romans 7 is me.
 
Paul shows that the Romans 7 man is trying to put to death the deeds of the flesh...but this man just cannot do it.

But..look what Paul say's in Romans 8...he tells us to do the very thing that the Rom.7 man could not do.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Note: The underlined section is not about a future physical resurrection. It is about the Spirit giving life to our dead sinful mortal bodies NOW.
 
Please be aware:

It is not my position that the Rom. 7 man should not or does not relate to us as Christians...he most certainly does.
I can say with confidence, I am the Rom. 7 man.

My point is that Paul does not write Rom. 7 so that we can all relate to him...We all already know that we relate to him. There is another reason that Paul gives us the Rom. 7 man.
 
Romans 8:10 answers the salvation question raised about Romans 7 quite nicely I think.

Paul said:
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

We are BOTH. A dead body still pricked by sinful desires and an awakened spirit horrified by the sin that seems to flow naturally from us every waking moment.

This is a snapshot of a Christian on the journey of sanctification. At any one moment we are still sinful in action and desire but working out our salvation (justification) to enslave our flesh to Godly action by the work of the Holy Spirit
 
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Please be aware:

It is not my position that the Rom. 7 man should not or does not relate to us as Christians...he most certainly does.
I can say with confidence, I am the Rom. 7 man.

My point is that Paul does not write Rom. 7 so that we can all relate to him...We all already know that we relate to him. There is another reason that Paul gives us the Rom. 7 man.

I believe the reason Paul wrote it is to teach us that sanctification comes through resting in Christ (faith). He wrote it to teach us how the saved person is sanctified by faith as opposed to fleshly works. The more we see how sinful we are the more we trust Christ and praise Him alone.

If you agree that you are the Romans 7 man then why do you believe Paul wrote it?
 
A couple of points are necessary here. First of all, the eschatological tension between the already and the not yet factors in here: the conflict between the old age and the new age finds its individual concomitant in the battle in the believer's life between the old man (which is enslaved to sin) and the new man (which is enslaved to Christ).

Second point: the phrase "inner man" (see verse 22) is ONLY used of true belief in Paul. Therefore, the man in Romans 7 CANNOT be an unbeliever.

Third point: you are forgetting the summary of chapter 7 in verses 24-25. After asking the question of deliverance, he gives us the answer in vs. 25a, where thanksgiving is given to God above. And THEN, AFTER having thanked God for the deliverance we have in Jesus Christ, he sums up the whole chapter by saying that he is enslaved both to God and to sin at the same time. One CANNOT be enslaved to God without being a true believer.

Fourth point: Paul throughout uses present tense verbs of being, which strongly points to Paul's present experience. Simul justus et peccator (at the same time just and sinner) was Luther's claim, not that he was happy with the situation. Of course we shouldn't be happy with this situation! That's the whole point! That is why chapter 7 comes after chapter 6. We should ardently desire better things and more holiness.

One of the problems in discussing this topic is that there are strong indications in the text that both the regenerate man and the unregenerate man cannot be what is referred to here. The discussion usually goes along the lines that one side's indicators are stronger and the other side's indicator texts don't really mean what seem to say. Coupled with this is the tendency tread Rom 7 in isolation from what has come before it, particularly Rom 6.1-11.

First point: in Rom 6, Paul teaches that although the old self is dead and we are no longer slaves to sin (vv. 6,7,11), sin is still present in our bodies and we must struggle against it. And Paul argues that it is because we are no longer slaves to sin that our struggle against it will ultimately be successful. So if Paul puts all Christians back under sins slavery in Rom 7 he is contradicting what he says in these verses of Rom. 6.

Second point; agreed that the inner man is never used of unbelievers so the man of Rom 7 is not the dead in sin unbeliever. But does that mean that the only alternative is that he must be a believer? Not necessarily.

Third point: the debate has often tended to forget that Paul's point in 7:13-25 is not primarily that of describing someone's experience. Instead, after having answered v. 13's question "Did that which is good [the law] become death to me?" with a summary answer in vv. 13b" that no it wasn't the law but sin that killed him. And vv. 14-20, a passage that must be linked to v. 13 due to the connective "gar" "(For) we know....", he proves the point by analyzing his own experience from the standpoint of his present Christian experience.

Yet this summary of his experience raises the question: is the man who experiences these things regenerate? Certain things are said of this man that are not true of the unregenerate. He desires to do good and delights in God's law and is slave to it in his mind. So he must be regenerate. Yet he cannot obey it (vv. 18c) so he either cannot be regenerate or he has forgotten something.

This description fits men who are in one of two situations: either one who has been placed under sufficient conviction to see the spirituality of the law without yet seeing the sufficiency of Christ's redemption, or a Christian who has temporarily forgotten that he is now freed from sin's power if not its presence through Christ. If either of these situations was what Paul wanted to describe than the present tense reality makes sense because they are ongoing present realities experienced by many of his readers and the second pehaps he also knew as a temptation.

For those who are interested in exploring this further I recommend DM LLoyd-Jones commentary on Rom. 7. - 8:4.
 
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Romans 7 is the normal Christian life!

in my opinion, this essentially promotes a gnostic view of Christianity. That is Christ only accomplishes for us spiritual things and delivers us in a spiritual aspect only. That the gospel has no real effect in the here and now, but only in the life to come.
That the "body" is evil and can only do evil...and that Christ only saves "spiritually".

That is Gnosticism
 
Please be aware:

It is not my position that the Rom. 7 man should not or does not relate to us as Christians...he most certainly does.
I can say with confidence, I am the Rom. 7 man.

My point is that Paul does not write Rom. 7 so that we can all relate to him...We all already know that we relate to him. There is another reason that Paul gives us the Rom. 7 man.

I believe the reason Paul wrote it is to teach us that sanctification comes through resting in Christ (faith). He wrote it to teach us how the saved person is sanctified by faith as opposed to fleshly works. The more we see how sinful we are the more we trust Christ and praise Him alone.

If you agree that you are the Romans 7 man then why do you believe Paul wrote it?
????
 
Paul seems quite clearly to be speaking of real Christian experience in both Romans 7 and Romans 8 - Romans 7 outlines the sin within
<--emph. moses'

Why does Paul need to argue the point that Christians (or non Christians) are sinners? Why would Paul need to argue that Christians struggle with sin?

Wow Paul,,,thanks for the great insight, your right, I am a sinner and I struggle with sin...whopdy do!
Perhaps my sarcasm is uncalled for.

But...why would Paul make such an elementary experiential point (that everyone knows) at this part of his very technical argument that runs through chapters 6-8?

Maybe Paul isn't necessarily arguing the point that Christians are still struggling with sin; maybe part of his intent was to comfort believers (by showing them that this is a "normal" thing for a Christian to go through, and that even he himself was not perfect yet, and went through the same struggles [and this is great comfort, because he was such a great man of God]).

And maybe the ultimate goal of this passage is to glorify Christ. The more sinful and the weaker we see that we are, the more glorious Christ will appear in our eyes, because of all of His perfection and His mercy toward us. And it is humbling, which is wonderful. So even though we "already know" that we still struggle with the law of sin, that shouldn't keep us from talking about it or thinking about it. Pondering his constant, frustrating battle with his flesh is what caused Paul to exclaim, "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" with such fervency.

And also, Paul says that we are to imitate him and follow his example...(1 Cor 4:6, 11:1; Phil. 3:17, 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9):rolleyes:
 
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