When did God impute the sins of the elect to Christ?

[Reformingstudent]

Came across this question a while ago and was not sure how I would answer it and would like to know if any here would like to take a shot at it. Also, could you give a reason for the answer you chose. Thank you.

When did God impute the sins of the elect to Christ ?

#1.before the world began ?

#2. At the cross

#3, At the time of believing the gospel ?

 

[Notthemama1984]

I believe it was in thought before the world began, realized at the cross, and brought to our attention at the point of believing the Gospel.

 

[Reformingstudent]

Good answer. Thanks.
Your check is in the mail.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Just got lucky is all.

 

[OPC'n]

At the cross. Isaiah 53 tells us this. Also Christ Himself stated on the cross that it was finished. What is "it"? The only way to answer that question is to ask why He went there in the first place...to pay for our sins. The only way to receive God's wrath for our sins was 2Cor 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

 

[eqdj]

While the elect were chosen and the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, and while our sins were imputed to Him at the cross - His righteousness is not imputed to us until regeneration - Else could it be true that we were alienated from God and His enemy (Col. 1:21)

An error of hyper-calvinism is that since the elect are elect before the world began they receive Christ's imputed righteousness before the world began.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I believe it was in thought before the world began, realized at the cross, and brought to our attention at the point of believing the Gospel.

This is a good answer. I think it is supportable by 2Cor.5:19, "that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

The original question had to do simply with sin's imputation, to Christ. So, I don't think that the timing of our justification has to be addressed in the same breath.

God was not counting the sin of his people against them (eternal, instantaneous death) because of Christ--even as far back as Adam and Eve. That eternal suspension fall on Christ at the cross. The specific ruling that removes my guilt (liability to punishment) on the basis of that sacrifice occurs when I believe.

 

[OPC'n]

But the question was "When did God impute the sins of the elect to Christ ?" The question wasn't when did God think of imputing sins onto Christ or when did the elect benefit from this imputation. So the answer would still have to be at the cross.

 

[staythecourse]

But the question was "When did God impute the sins of the elect to Christ ?" The question wasn't when did God think of imputing sins onto Christ or when did the elect benefit from this imputation. So the answer would still have to be at the cross.

SArah, Isaiah uses past tense in the prophecy for example:

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

He saw it as already completed. He doesn't say "He will be pierced/crushed/punished"

 

[MW]

Technically, taking into account the specific terms of the original question, Hebrews 10:5 teaches that Christ became a sin offering from the moment He assumed human nature.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I like it, Matthew!

 

[Prufrock]

Technically, taking into account the specific terms of the original question, Hebrews 10:5 teaches that Christ became a sin offering from the moment He assumed human nature.

Thanks. I'm reminded of all the systematic books I've read, which discuss Christ's sufferings through his whole life as a part of his satisfaction, or as a part of his oblation to the Father.

I still think it is a hard question, though. "When" were our sins imputed to Jesus.

 

[OPC'n]

But the question was "When did God impute the sins of the elect to Christ ?" The question wasn't when did God think of imputing sins onto Christ or when did the elect benefit from this imputation. So the answer would still have to be at the cross.

SArah, Isaiah uses past tense in the prophecy for example:

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

He saw it as already completed. He doesn't say "He will be pierced/crushed/punished"

Right, at the cross.

 

[OPC'n]

Technically, taking into account the specific terms of the original question, Hebrews 10:5 teaches that Christ became a sin offering from the moment He assumed human nature.

ummm...not really seeing how you think that Christ was bearing our sins when He first came into this world. A body that God prepared for Christ needed to be prepared in order for Him to become like His brethren and live a perfect life which would be imputed onto us and then at the cross be that single sacrifice for our sins. Even in the OT the goat had to have someone's hand placed on it to impute onto it the sins of Israel before it was sent out of camp. We know this represents what happened to Christ. The goat didn't have Israel's sins on it until that imputation (obviously being a type and shadow of Christ).

Hebrews 10:5 just states that, "5Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"

8When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

[Prufrock]

This is not to say there was more than one sacrifice; it is simply that theologians have not limited Christ's sufferings and satisfaction to the cross.

 

[OPC'n]

Technically, taking into account the specific terms of the original question, Hebrews 10:5 teaches that Christ became a sin offering from the moment He assumed human nature.

Thanks. I'm reminded of all the systematic books I've read, which discuss Christ's sufferings through his whole life as a part of his satisfaction, or as a part of his oblation to the Father.

I still think it is a hard question, though. "When" were our sins imputed to Jesus.

Christ had two main "obligations" when He came to earth. One of those obligations was His sufferings (40 day fasting and temptation by Satan for example) in order to fulfill righteous acts on our behalf which would be imputed to His elect. This is separate from His second obligation of having our sins imputed onto Him, taking His Father's wrath and curse upon Himself at the cross (cursed is the one who is hung on a tree). We KNOW that our sins were not imputed onto Christ before the cross because Christ never cried out to His Father, "Father, why have You forsaken Me?" until He was on the cross bearing our sins.

 

[staythecourse]

But the question was "When did God impute the sins of the elect to Christ ?" The question wasn't when did God think of imputing sins onto Christ or when did the elect benefit from this imputation. So the answer would still have to be at the cross.

SArah, Isaiah uses past tense in the prophecy for example:

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

He saw it as already completed. He doesn't say "He will be pierced/crushed/punished"

Right, at the cross.

If I may, I believe you are oversimplifying it. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. He played his life out in time as well but it was already a done deal in God's eyes.

Isaiah was saying it was already done 700+ years before it happened.

 

[sotzo]

It is debates on questions like this that make people want to leave for Rome or the East since they leave room for mystery. Putting the ordo salutis into water-tight compartments in terms of time and space of their occurence is like asking for a mathematical equation to define the process of thinking. Yes, there is an order to salvation, but how is assurance or sanctification encouraged by being able to say "at 11:50 AM on Thursday, immediately after Christ cried out to the Father on the cross, my sins were forgiven". This error, in my opinion, is the Reformed equivalent of Finneyism, the latter which would encourage saying "at 11:50 AM on Sunday, immediately after I walked the aisle during the invitation, Jesus came into my heart."

 

[MW]

Technically, taking into account the specific terms of the original question, Hebrews 10:5 teaches that Christ became a sin offering from the moment He assumed human nature.

ummm...not really seeing how you think that Christ was bearing our sins when He first came into this world.

His circumcision (made under the law) and baptism (fulfilling all righteousness) demonstrate the fact that He was surety for His people all His life long.

 

[OPC'n]

SArah, Isaiah uses past tense in the prophecy for example:

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

He saw it as already completed. He doesn't say "He will be pierced/crushed/punished"

Right, at the cross.

If I may, I believe you are oversimplifying it. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. He played his life out in time as well but it was already a done deal in God's eyes.

Isaiah was saying it was already done 700+ years before it happened.

Can you produce Scripture which says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world? Obviously, it was planned before the foundation of the world but I don't know of any Scripture which says He was actually slain before the foundation of the world. It would seem impossible for God the Son to be slain. God the Son wasn't even slain on earth when His fully man body was slain. God the Son has never died only His body died or was slain. One portion of Isaiah 53 says that Christ was despised and rejected by men...past tense here. However, we know that men didn't exist before the foundations of the world, but according to your thinking they would have to since the past tense to which Isaiah refers has to do with "before the foundations of the world". You cannot say that one sentence which is in past tense form is referring to "before the foundations of the world" and yet another sentence with past tense form is not referring to "before the foundations of the world". You have to be consistent. Isaiah 53 is Isaiah prophesying what would happen in the future in a past tense form only to indicate that it was a sure thing which would come about at the cross.

 

[OPC'n]

Technically, taking into account the specific terms of the original question, Hebrews 10:5 teaches that Christ became a sin offering from the moment He assumed human nature.

ummm...not really seeing how you think that Christ was bearing our sins when He first came into this world.

His circumcision (made under the law) and baptism (fulfilling all righteousness) demonstrate the fact that He was surety for His people all His life long.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean He bore our sins while walking the earth for 33yrs. Your statement here only confirms that He lived a righteous and perfect life and those righteous and perfect works are imputed to us. This doesn't answer the question of "when" our sins were imputed onto Christ.

 

[staythecourse]

Revelation 13:8 in the Greek has Christ slain from the foundation of the world.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That is the word-order of the Greek text as well.

The imputation of sin was decreed before the foundation of the world and what God decrees is already an established fact regardless of time. Time is a secondary factor for God. So "when were the sins imputed?" Before time began in the permanent decree. When God "started the clock" of all creation the realization of the decree occurred at the cross. Both are right answers.

Out of time, the elects' sins were imputed to Christ from eternity past. In time it was at the cross.

Personally, I realized what God had decreed 27 years ago, to give an example of my experience of the imputation

 

[sotzo]

ummm...not really seeing how you think that Christ was bearing our sins when He first came into this world.

His circumcision (made under the law) and baptism (fulfilling all righteousness) demonstrate the fact that He was surety for His people all His life long.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean He bore our sins while walking the earth for 33yrs. Your statement here only confirms that He lived a righteous and perfect life and those righteous and perfect works are imputed to us. This doesn't answer the question of "when" our sins were imputed onto Christ.

I think what Rev Winzer is alluding to is Christ's active obedience on our behalf.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Can you produce Scripture which says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world? Obviously, it was planned before the foundation of the world but I don't know of any Scripture which says He was actually slain before the foundation of the world.

I think the verse he has in mind is:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I don't think anyone is saying that Christ WAS actually dead, or "considered dead" (crassly), or what-have-you, before time began.

Nor do I think anyone is trying to diminish the physical act of sacrifice, or laying down life-for-life (or -lives) when they point out that the Incarnation was an act that prepared the Son of God for death. That little baby in a manger was there for one reason only--to DIE.

The Passover lamb was chosen on the 10th of the month. Then it was killed on the 14th, at twilight. Why was it set apart 4 days earlier? Because preparation was part of the event. Perhaps we accept that Jesus didn't receive the "weight" of our guilt prior to his actual crucifixion, although there certainly seems to be a "process" to the pouring out of the wrath of God that includes Gethsemane and his trials.

Why don't we just acknowledge that this is all a pretty overwhelming scenario that defies neat categorizations?

 

[nicnap]

Why don't we just acknowledge that this is all a pretty overwhelming scenario that defies neat categorizations?

Because there could be no more back and forth banter prowess displayed! We'd have to go back to work or something. Or read! We must hash it all out, Pastor!!!

 

[OPC'n]

Revelation 13:8 in the Greek has Christ slain from the foundation of the world.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That is the word-order of the Greek text as well.

The imputation of sin was decreed before the foundation of the world and what God decrees is already an established fact regardless of time. Time is a secondary factor for God. So "when were the sins imputed?" Before time began in the permanent decree. When God "started the clock" of all creation the realization of the decree occurred at the cross. Both are right answers.

Out of time, the elects' sins were imputed to Christ from eternity past. In time it was at the cross.

Personally, I realized what God had decreed 27 years ago, to give an example of my experience of the imputation

Maybe I need to know which version of the Bible you are using. The ESV states, "And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." So this verse is speaking about those people who were not chosen before the foundation of the world. It isn't referring to Christ being slain before the foundation of the world.

 

[OPC'n]

Can you produce Scripture which says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world? Obviously, it was planned before the foundation of the world but I don't know of any Scripture which says He was actually slain before the foundation of the world.

I think the verse he has in mind is:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I don't think anyone is saying that Christ WAS actually dead, or "considered dead" (crassly), or what-have-you, before time began.

Nor do I think anyone is trying to diminish the physical act of sacrifice, or laying down life-for-life (or -lives) when they point out that the Incarnation was an act that prepared the Son of God for death. That little baby in a manger was there for one reason only--to DIE.

The Passover lamb was chosen on the 10th of the month. Then it was killed on the 14th, at twilight. Why was it set apart 4 days earlier? Because preparation was part of the event. Perhaps we accept that Jesus didn't receive the "weight" of our guilt prior to his actual crucifixion, although there certainly seems to be a "process" to the pouring out of the wrath of God that includes Gethsemane and his trials.

Why don't we just acknowledge that this is all a pretty overwhelming scenario that defies neat categorizations?

Because Scripture is clear of when our sins were imputed onto Christ. I think it is bad theology to say that our sins were imputed onto Him anytime before that. I agree that He prepared His whole life to take on our sins at the cross, but this isn't the same thing as actually taking on our sins and that was the question. When did He take on our sins. The question wasn't was He preparing throughout His life to take on our sins, but when did He actually accomplish this. It is very true that the little baby in the manger was born for a reason and that was to die for our sins but it wasn't the only reason. Had He only needed to come down to die for our sins He could have come in bodily form straight from heaven to the cross to die for our sins. However, that would have only put us in the same place that Adam and Eve were in before the fall...in an innocent condition. Had He not lived a perfect, righteous life on our behalf we would not have any perfect, righteous works imputed onto us. The verse about Christ being slain before the foundation of the world is an incorrect interpretation which leads to all this confusion of when our sins were imputed onto Christ and thus gives us bad theology. I actually have never met anyone who was unsure about the timing of the imputation of our sins onto Christ. There are people who do not believe or even understand imputation of sins, but those who do believe and know about this doctrine believe it was at the cross. I don't continue this conversation just for the sake of speaking. I believe it is a very important doctrine to get right. And I do think it should be hashed out.

 

[OPC'n]

Also, I just looked up the Greek rendering of Rev 13:8 and it states, "written [speaking of people's names] in the slain Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world" so even in the Greek rendering of this verse it isn't speaking of the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world, but instead it refers to those people whose names were not written in His book of Life from the foundation of the world. There is no other Scripture which backs up the thought that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, but there is other Scripture which backs up the doctrine that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world, thus showing us that the non-elect were not written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

 

[OPC'n]

Why don't we just acknowledge that this is all a pretty overwhelming scenario that defies neat categorizations?

Because there could be no more back and forth banter prowess displayed! We'd have to go back to work or something. Or read! We must hash it all out, Pastor!!!

I think this is rude. Certainly not a fruit of the Holy Spirit. I do work and I work hard. I do read not only the Bible but other godly men's work. But perhaps you're right. Perhaps I spend too much time here. Maybe it's time you take away my membership here.

 

[nicnap]

Why don't we just acknowledge that this is all a pretty overwhelming scenario that defies neat categorizations?

Because there could be no more back and forth banter prowess displayed! We'd have to go back to work or something. Or read! We must hash it all out, Pastor!!!

I think this is rude. Certainly not a fruit of the Holy Spirit. I do work and I work hard. I do read not only the Bible but other godly men's work. But perhaps you're right. Perhaps I spend too much time here. Maybe it's time you take away my membership here.

With all due respect...it doesn't appear to be aimed at you. A little sense of humor does a lot of good.