A question for the Canadians

[kalawine]

For years I've heard that Canadians have a terrible socialistic health care program which is a nightmare and that Canadians are "clamoring" to get to the US for treatment. Recently I had a friend challenge this statement as a myth. As for myself I honestly do not know.

I am against Socialism in any way and under any circumstances and I wouldn't welcome socialized health care because I believe it flies in the face of the US Constitution. But if it is a myth that your system doesn't "work" I'd like to know. I like putting myths to rest regardless of what my views might be. Could some of you Canadian PB'ers shed some light on this subject for me?

 

[Guido's Brother]

I think it probably depends on what's ailing you. There are some procedures where there can be terribly long waiting lists and then, if you have the money, the US health care system might be attractive. But if you're an average Joe healthy dude like me and have to see a doctor every five years or so for some mundane thing, then Canada's system seems to work just fine.

However, I do hear nasty stories about the US. I have a sister who lives just across the border in Lynden and their four year old gashed his head and they used crazy glue to stitch it together rather than pay $500+ for stitches at the hospital (and that's with insurance). Last long weekend, there was a news story about Canadians going into the US without health insurance. An evening at a hospital in Washington state plus a consultation with a cardiologist will set you back over $20,000. Ouch. So maybe you hear myths about Canadian health care, but we hear stories about the US too.

So, sure Canada is socialist when it comes to health care. But if you're a pragmatist, and especially if you're a very sick pragmatist, it's not all that bad.

 

[awretchsavedbygrace]

Anyone else?

 

[matt01]

You get what you pay for.

We paid over $400 a month in the U.S., in addition to a huge deductable ($3000 for routine delivery). The service was pretty good. Now we pay $108 a month (in Canada), with no deductable. Some things are better, such as having a mid-wife, but there are often long waits. We spent close to six hours at an emergency room recently. Of course, we have also spent that long at an ER in the states.

I am grateful for the Canadian system.

 

[kalawine]

I think it probably depends on what's ailing you. There are some procedures where there can be terribly long waiting lists and then, if you have the money, the US health care system might be attractive. But if you're an average Joe healthy dude like me and have to see a doctor every five years or so for some mundane thing, then Canada's system seems to work just fine.

However, I do hear nasty stories about the US. I have a sister who lives just across the border in Lynden and their four year old gashed his head and they used crazy glue to stitch it together rather than pay $500+ for stitches at the hospital (and that's with insurance). Last long weekend, there was a news story about Canadians going into the US without health insurance. An evening at a hospital in Washington state plus a consultation with a cardiologist will set you back over $20,000. Ouch. So maybe you hear myths about Canadian health care, but we hear stories about the US too.

So, sure Canada is socialist when it comes to health care. But if you're a pragmatist, and especially if you're a very sick pragmatist, it's not all that bad.

I'm no pragmatist but I do appreciate your reply. Thanks brother!

 

[Scynne]

Canada's health care system is goodly, In my humble opinion. If I need something, I get it. Some things have long waiting lists, but those are not life or death situations (often unlovable ailments, but not lethal). If you're dying, you get your health care, and everyone's happy!

 

[VilnaGaon]

There are waiting lists problems. I remember how my father had to wait almost a year for heart surgery and in the months approaching his surgery, he could hardly walk. But the surgery was superbly done and he was not billed $200 000, as he would have been in the U.S. There should be more money spent by the Government on Health Care, but the Canadian government wastes too much of our money on Single Moms on welfare, other social parasites and giving money to corrupt foreign governments like Afghanistan and Africa.

 

[CredoFidoSpero]

I am against Socialism in any way and under any circumstances and I wouldn't welcome socialized health care because I believe it flies in the face of the US Constitution. But if it is a myth that your system doesn't "work" I'd like to know. I like putting myths to rest regardless of what my views might be. Could some of you Canadian PB'ers shed some light on this subject for me?

But you also have to realize that a lot of our health care in the US is already socialized - The VA and Indian Health Service are basically socialized medicine, and Medicare and Medicaid are socialist to a large degree, and the major US health care companies are so huge, larger than most countries in monetary terms, that their affect on health care access and prices are more socialist than free market (well, maybe their more like monopolies as to their affect on prices...anybody?). And the US military health care systems are also pretty much socialized medicine, though I believe they've been outsourcing dependent care more and more to private insurances.

I don't have the answers, I'm just sayin'. Some of our problems, like the huge costs of out-of-pocket for private payers, is because of inflation of prices from the weird mix of socialized/partially-socialized that is such a big part of our health care market. Well, that and liability issues...but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[LawrenceU]

Socialised health care will not work in the US. All one has to do is look at the areas that are already socialised: The VA, the IHS, Medicare, Medicaid. Each of these systems is inefficient, offers poor to horrible service on average, and has trouble keeping good physicians, nurses, and other health care workers.

Won't it be fun when the day comes when they triage you because you are over 60 and are no longer worth the money it takes to serve your health care needs because your days of productivity are past? Don't laugh. It has happened and is happening right now in nations that have socialised their health care. And, no, they are not all communist countries.

 

[OPC'n]

My sister lives in Canada and she doesn't have any complaints on the whole. I know that they have to wait for MRI's longer than we do. Also, they don't go that extra mile that we do (at least my hospital). For example, she was in a car accident going about 80 miles per hour (can't remember the kilometer number) when a truck she was following suddenly swerved into the other lane and there in front of her was a giant wooden box (stood taller than the front end of her SUV). She was unable to get over in time to miss it and she hit it which brought her to a sudden halt. She and her son and her grand baby were in the accident. The only thing the ER did was take x-rays of their necks. She had tunnel vision for a little while and they didn't even do a CAT scan or an MRI....we would have. So things like that are different from us. But otherwise she likes her health care there. Also, people don't sue the britches off MD's and RN's like they do here so that helps to keep the medical costs down. I totally agree with what Lawrence, BTW.

 

[kvanlaan]

It works OK in Canada but not great. Let's face it: my taxes fund abortions every day. That may be the same in the US, but not to as great an extent.

The monstrosity of that aside, it works OK, and not just for small things. When my mom got sick with cancer, she was rushed into the best care available in the province. It was advanced (she always hated doctors) but the care was undeniably excellent.

 

[Poimen]

Like many things in life the original anecdote has some truth to it but is also an exaggeration of the situation.

I think one of the biggest problems in Canada is getting doctor's and nurses to work in small(er) towns and outlying areas. As more and more people move to the city so do the services except for those who stay behind. The other problem is that the US attracts many of our health care workers because the private system generally pays better and gives out greater benefits.

But all in all the Canadian health care system is vastly superior to the majority of what the world offers: none to horribly deficient, so any Canadian should be thankful and keep their mouth shut about what the government owes them etc. Do we really deserve any of it?

However I am of the opinion that we need more private health care and I would in fact support a real private/public mix so that if people want to pay for it they should be able to get the best care possible. Ultimately I would like to see a completely private system but I know that is not going to happen in my life time.

 

[Edward]

But you also have to realize that a lot of our health care in the US is already socialized - The VA and Indian Health Service are basically socialized medicine, and Medicare and Medicaid are socialist to a large degree, and the major US health care companies are so huge, larger than most countries in monetary terms, that their affect on health care access and prices are more socialist than free market (well, maybe their more like monopolies as to their affect on prices...anybody?). And the US military health care systems are also pretty much socialized medicine, though I believe they've been outsourcing dependent care more and more to private insurances.

Points well made. Indeed, one of the arguments against the 'next step' in the US was that we would be unable to choose our doctors. But in fact, we no longer can choose our doctors. Your health insurer provides a list of doctors and hospitals with whom they contract, and if you go 'out of network' your costs will skyrocket. So is there much practical impact to most of us between picking a doctor from a list compiled by a government clerk, and one from a list compiled by an insurance company clerk?

 

[tellville]

I'm happy that I have public health care. We just had a baby which was free for us. Wouldn't have been in the States. And there are several other times where public health care has saved us tons of money. The downside is there are long wait times and we don't really get the cream of the crop doctors (due to lower salary's)(though it is not like the doctors are bad!). Here is a post I wrote earlier about what I would like to see in Canada:

Here in Canada we have a totally public system. I don't like it, but if I lived in the States I would probably have no health insurance and thus in serious danger of going into massive debt or being unable to pay for something.

Personally, I believe in some sort of hybrid model. I think there should be public hospitals and private hospitals. In my opinion, if you have the money to pay, then why are you denied the right to get health care quicker?

I would add a qualification. A private hospital would not be allowed to charge any more or less then then the public system (on the services that the public system provides). I would do this to help alleviate the potential for a two-tier health care system. Also, the public system would have to offer all essential and basic services that hospitals normally carry.

Also, rich people's taxes could still be used to support the public health care system. They would also have to pay health care premiums (which in Canada is usually around $60 per person a month)(the public system should be available for everyone even if everyone doesn't use it)

Public doctors would get paid just like private doctors do except it would be the government doing the paying. This would be to help prevent a two-tier system.

The benefits I see are:

1. Many more new hospitals without being a strain on the tax payer.
2. Poor people still get good health care
3. Rich people use their own money thus freeing up more money for the public system.
4. Wait lines go down because all the rich people go to the private hospitals.

Anyway, I am sure there are tons of holes in this type of system, but I like it and I think it is better than either a purely public or private system

 

[Berean]

Do they have Urgent-Care type facilities? You wake up with a swollen red eye or a bad flu bug or a burning strep throat. Do they have walk-in clinics for such things, or do you have to go to the ER (or worse, make an appointment)?

 

[AThornquist]

Good words from Lawrence.

Some of the socialized programs in the US are seriously hurting hospitals economically. Medicare, for example, doesn't pay the entirety of the bill at many hospitals, and the patient undoubtedly will not pay the rest. Thus, per patient on Medicare, money is lost. It really adds up considering the massive amount of people in the program! The only thing keeping my hospital in the black is our Outpatient Pavilion, which, since it is not emergency services, can deny patients. In other words, if you don't have proper insurance or the funds to pay, we can send you on your way until you can pay. Unfortunately, it's what has to be done to not be in debt. (We are non-profit though, so it is not uncommon for us to provide services to those in need for reduced cost anyway.)

I just don't know if I would like being taxed for medical services if I don't go to the doctor maybe once or twice every decade. With my hard earned insurance most of my bills are paid for anyway, and the cost is less than if I was taxed for the coverage. But since hospital leaches are not the exception in terms of customers, what would happen if the socialized healthcare programs were removed? Sure, the regulars who waste my time (grr.) would stop coming so much, but those who have a legitimate need would be in a really tough situation. So while completely socialized healthcare may not work here, perhaps a few programs should be revamped and still available?

 

[tellville]

Do they have Urgent-Care type facilities? You wake up with a swollen red eye or a bad flu bug or a burning strep throat. Do they have walk-in clinics for such things, or do you have to go to the ER (or worse, make an appointment)?

It depends where you live in Canada. Where I'm from (Edmonton) there is really good heath care service. There are many walk-in clinics and relatively short lines and wait times. However, where I live now in Surrey it is horrendous. I wait hours upon hours upon hours most of the time. It's ridiculous. Given that both systems get relatively the same amount of money I think the problem lies purely in the people running the program. I also use to live in Quebec, the most socialized of all the provinces (though health care is equally socialized all over the country - I thought I would just make a jab at Quebec ) and it was by far the worst of the worst.

 

[kalawine]

I am against Socialism in any way and under any circumstances and I wouldn't welcome socialized health care because I believe it flies in the face of the US Constitution. But if it is a myth that your system doesn't "work" I'd like to know. I like putting myths to rest regardless of what my views might be. Could some of you Canadian PB'ers shed some light on this subject for me?

But you also have to realize that a lot of our health care in the US is already socialized - The VA and Indian Health Service are basically socialized medicine, and Medicare and Medicaid are socialist to a large degree, and the major US health care companies are so huge, larger than most countries in monetary terms, that their affect on health care access and prices are more socialist than free market (well, maybe their more like monopolies as to their affect on prices...anybody?). And the US military health care systems are also pretty much socialized medicine, though I believe they've been outsourcing dependent care more and more to private insurances.

I don't have the answers, I'm just sayin'. Some of our problems, like the huge costs of out-of-pocket for private payers, is because of inflation of prices from the weird mix of socialized/partially-socialized that is such a big part of our health care market. Well, that and liability issues...but that's a whole other discussion.

But you also have to realize that a lot of our health care in the US is already socialized

Oh I'm well aware of that fact and I resent every penny.

-----Added 5/23/2009 at 03:15:42 EST-----

I'm happy that I have public health care. We just had a baby which was free for us.

Oh no sir. Your baby wasn't free. Somebody paid for it.

 

[kvanlaan]

Oh no sir. Your baby wasn't free. Somebody paid for it.

Listen, it's the typical socialist setup. For instance: baby bonus cheques from the feds every month. (Yes, I too suckle at the teat of the government). We are given a generous amount every month because we are assessed a 'bonus' or tax credit per child every month in the form of a cheque. I like that part. What I hate is that I know that each dollar that gets to me represents $10 of taxpayers' money (who subsequently pay an army of civil servants to shuffle the paper along its way). It really bugs me.

 

[Guido's Brother]

Listen, it's the typical socialist setup. For instance: baby bonus cheques from the feds every month. (Yes, I too suckle at the teat of the government). We are given a generous amount every month because we are assessed a 'bonus' or tax credit per child every month in the form of a cheque. I like that part. What I hate is that I know that each dollar that gets to me represents $10 of taxpayers' money (who subsequently pay an army of civil servants to shuffle the paper along its way). It really bugs me.

And some of us get the "beer and popcorn" cheque to boot!

 

[kvanlaan]

Oh yeah, forgot about that one - $300 now. Not too shabby.

 

[Kevin]

The system overall works well. For some things the waits are longish, but that is mostly a factor of people that are "urgent" moving up the list ahead of you.

If you are fairly healthy Or realy sick it works great. If you have a chronic condition that is non-life threatening then you often get the short end of the stick.

I lived in the US for 17 years. Sometimes without insurance. I consider this to be a better system over all.

I was sent home from an ER in TN after a car accident when I should not have been released because (I later learned) they thought I did not have insurance (I did). The reason they didn't know was that I was incoherent from a head injury & my buddy sitting next to me died. Since this was my first expirience with a US hospital I was a bit vague on how it all worked.



-----Added 5/23/2009 at 08:11:53 EST-----

Two things tick me off.

1) Canadians ranting about the US health system, people here honestly think that the poor are left to die in ditches outside of hospitals.

2) Americans ranting about the "socalist" Canadian health system. Face it folks the USA is just as socialist as Canada! You socialise the cost of empire & we socialise the cost of health care.

 

[AThornquist]

I was sent home from an ER in TN after a car accident when I should not have been released because (I later learned) they thought I did not have insurance (I did). The reason they didn't know was that I was incoherent from a head injury & my buddy sitting next to me died. Since this was my first expirience with a US hospital I was a bit vague on how it all worked.

That is definitely a downside to a for-profit hospital, which I bet that was. It can get really ugly. Many hospitals are non-profit however, and I can assure you that if it was my hospital Administration would have been furious and probably have charged nothing. There are certainly flaws to private healthcare.

 

[DMcFadden]

As far as the U.S. goes, much of this will be a moot point. The current administration has set his heart on making systemic health care reform a major priority for this year. Since he has the votes in both houses of the Congress with a veto proof margin, it is likely that he will get his way.

My moral quibbles about socialized medicine will matter little in the final analysis. I tell my friends to get ready for our medical care to work like the Department of Motor Vehicles in surgical smocks. Inefficiency and mediocrity is the price you pay for a seamless security net run by any government. I do think, however, that for some of our younger PB gang it will be a real Godsend. Having babies without the fear of medical debt, not being afraid to go to the doctor due to the cost, not sweating it when you need medication for you child, being concerned that your new job does not provide medical insurance, etc. will all work to the advantage of our younger crew on PB. Some of us older ones will probably crab about the longer waits, the fear of being declined treatment because of cost rationing, and the withdrawal of pushing the envelop to keep us alive.

Some have observed that if Natasha Richardson's head injury would likely not have resulted in death if she were in the U.S. (not because docs are better, but because routine practice includes more expensive testing here).

But hey, we are Calvinists aren't we? Be grateful for God's providence that you have what you do have in this country.

 

[tellville]

I'm happy that I have public health care. We just had a baby which was free for us.

Oh no sir. Your baby wasn't free. Somebody paid for it.

Notice that I said that I was happy that our baby was free for us. Actually, having kids in Canada is quite lucrative. Canada has a lowish birth rate and the government of Canada would rather pay its citizens to have children then to have to immigrate them. Many of the pastors at my church have children just so they can make the ends meet! (btw, we don't get TONS for having children, but that little bit extra can sometimes go a long way). If I had to pay thousands upon thousands to have children life would become very very difficult.

Dennis makes a good point: for younger people and families (like myself) having the government help with health care costs is a big help. This is why I am not for a purely private system. Rather, I support a hybrid system that allows the rich to get the service they have earned while not leaving the poor to suffer through no fault of their own (though their exceptions to both of those points!)

Some have observed that if Natasha Richardson's head injury would likely not have resulted in death if she were in the U.S. (not because docs are better, but because routine practice includes more expensive testing here)

I wonder if her refusing treatment when first offered had anything to do with that?

 

[kalawine]

Two things tick me off.

1) Canadians ranting about the US health system, people here honestly think that the poor are left to die in ditches outside of hospitals.

2) Americans ranting about the "socalist" Canadian health system. Face it folks the USA is just as socialist as Canada! You socialise the cost of empire & we socialise the cost of health care.

All the ranting I hear about the Canadian health system is that it is socialist (remember: I'm telling you what I hear. I plead ignorance) and that we don't need or want it it here. And are we socialist to some degree? Yes. But it the Right Wing dummys like myself who would do away with all of that overnight were it within our power to do so. Have I tried voting? Yea, that doesn't seem to work.