Baptists and EP

[JML]

After looking at the wonderful resource that our brother has created to list the EP congregations in the world, I have to wonder why there are not more EP Baptist churches in the world. I think we are the only one in the U.S. and there are a couple in England.

Is there any reason(s) particular to the Baptist way of doing things that this is so? Were more Baptists in church history EP or has it always been rare amongst Baptists?

 

[rbcbob]

John, I think it has more to do with our view of the New Covenant. Does it not seem peculiar to worship Jesus in song drawn exclusively from the types and shadows of the OT rather than from the fuller light of the NT? It strikes me as disjointed to praise the Lord of the New Covenant who is Himself the very focal point of Special Revelation and never sing His name.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I believe the early Particular Baptist were EP. It was the accepted practice back then and it wasn't challenged. So there probably isn't nothing written on the subject. Kind of like the the situation of the doctrine of the Trinity till Tertillian. It wasn't a disputed subject. The thing I find amazing is why did Baptists retain most of their roots when the Presbyterians didn't during the 18th and 19th centuries. I understand why there wasn't a lot of Particular Baptists. They we way much more persecuted till tolerance. 1689. The Baptist kept their Calvinistic leanings when the Presbyterians didn't.

 

[Jen]

Benjamin Keach apparently introduced hymn singing to the Particular Baptists in the 1670s. He had previously been a General Baptist. This sparked a controversy over congregational singing itself. So I've always been under the impression that Particular Baptists either sung nothing at all (I have a vague memory once upon a time of them reading Psalms, but never singing - in part because singing would draw attention to their meeting places) or sang hymns, but were never EP.

ETA: In our Baptist History class, Dr. Renihan never once mentioned psalm singing. Only hymns.

 

[JP Wallace]

I don't think there is anything particular to the Baptist position, all the arguments I've read or heard are the usual ones, usually with the emphasis on not using the name of Jesus in praise, but that's not distinctive either.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Benjamin Keach apparently introduced hymn singing to the Particular Baptists in the 1670s. He had previously been a General Baptist. This sparked a controversy over congregational singing itself. So I've always been under the impression that Particular Baptists either sung nothing at all (I have a vague memory once upon a time of them reading Psalms, but never singing - in part because singing would draw attention to their meeting places) or sang hymns, but were never EP.

ETA: In our Baptist History class, Dr. Renihan never once mentioned psalm singing. Only hymns.

Well, some Particular Baptists believed in individuals singing psalms to the congregation but not congregational singing. I first read of this in James Leo Garrett's book, Baptist Theology: A Four-Century Study. I thought it very odd.

"[Hanserd] Knollys allowed for solo singing if the song had been dictated by the Holy Spirit" (p. 89)

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Benjamin Keach apparently introduced hymn singing to the Particular Baptists in the 1670s. He had previously been a General Baptist. This sparked a controversy over congregational singing itself. So I've always been under the impression that Particular Baptists either sung nothing at all (I have a vague memory once upon a time of them reading Psalms, but never singing - in part because singing would draw attention to their meeting places) or sang hymns, but were never EP.

ETA: In our Baptist History class, Dr. Renihan never once mentioned psalm singing. Only hymns.

Jen, I believe you are seriously incorrect. Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't denote it wasn't done. Arguments from silence rarely have much of a defense if something was practiced and common during the time of history one is discussing. Especially if it was a norm in most places geographically during the time. That was the practice of the Church at that time. Psalm singing was common as far as I understand it. Just notice the presence of Psalters and not Hymnals or Hymns sung.

And I am not EP. Can you prove otherwise? I would be interested in knowing that you are certain that Psalm singing didn't take place in the Particular Baptist Church or that no singing took place. Especially since singing is a command.

 

[Jen]

Well, some Particular Baptists believed in individuals singing psalms to the congregation but not congregational singing. I first read of this in James Leo Garrett's book, Baptist Theology: A Four-Century Study. I thought it very odd.

"[Hanserd] Knollys allowed for solo singing if the song had been dictated by the Holy Spirit" (p. 89)

Yes, this is what we were taught in class. The controversy over hymn singing wasn't so much over hymn singing as it was over corporate singing at all, which has always fascinated me.

Jen, I believe you are seriously incorrect. Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't denote it wasn't done. Arguments from silence rarely have much of a defense if something was practiced and common during the time of history one is discussing. Especially if it was a norm in most places geographically during the time. That was the practice of the Church at that time. Psalm singing was common as far as I understand it. Just notice the presence of Psalters and not Hymnals or Hymns sung.

And I am not EP. Can you prove otherwise? I would be interested in knowing that you are certain that Psalm singing didn't take place in the Particular Baptist Church or that no singing took place. Especially since singing is a command.

Josh is correct. I was talking about my impressions.

But, yes, B.R. White's "The English Baptists of the Seventeenth Century" does make clear that the controversy that Keach brought into the church was explicitly over congregational singing more than it was about what they were singing. Likewise for any biographical information I've ever come across on Keach -- for example, Michael A.G. Haykin's "Rediscovering our English Baptist Heritage: Kiffin, Knollys, and Keach". Haykin goes into a little more depth due to the narrowness of his topic, and he includes some quotes in there. The controversy was not at all about hymns but congregational singing.

 

[JP Wallace]

I believe the early Particular Baptist were EP. It was the accepted practice back then and it wasn't challenged. So there probably isn't nothing written on the subject. Kind of like the the situation of the doctrine of the Trinity till Tertillian. It wasn't a disputed subject. The thing I find amazing is why did Baptists retain most of their roots when the Presbyterians didn't during the 18th and 19th centuries. I understand why there wasn't a lot of Particular Baptists. They we way much more persecuted till tolerance. 1689. The Baptist kept their Calvinistic leanings when the Presbyterians didn't.

There is not anything much to go on in regards to this subject, other than the "no-singing at all" controversy which is pretty well documented I believe. They did not sing because they believed that Eph 5:18 & Col. 3:16 were sufficiently contextually connected to public worship and probably in reaction to Anglicanism's "high" practices. The 1689 Confession just quotes these passages and since Keach was a primary author it would seem to allow both EP and Inclusive Psalmody, and they did change it from the WCF's Psalms only position. I'd say there was a mix of practices but at this point can't prove it.

I once read somewhere that the unaccompanied psalms were sung - by choirs in Baptist churches, but not by the congregation!

With regards to keeping Baptist roots, one needs to be careful - Calvinistic Baptist in the 18th century were almost destroyed by Hyper-calvinism.

 

[Peairtach]

It's even stranger that so many Presbyterian churches - which, in a sense should have a clearer understanding of themselves as the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), being in the New Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant, with individuals and families engrafted into the Abrahamic Olive Tree (Romans 11), and having an organic and historical connection with Old Testament Israel, the Church being Israel in adulthood - should marginalise the Psalms.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Jen,

I have the book and read it years ago. So, I don't remember that much about it. I will take a look at Dr. Haykin's book today. If you can, tell me the pages you were going to type out for me and I ill do it and post it. I know you have to be busy. It is Finals week. AAAAAACCCCCKKKKKK!


Addition.........................................................
I found a quote by Haykin,

;he defended the at length the singing of hymns and even compiled some of his own;
Rediscovering our English Baptist heritage
Michael A. G. Haykin
p. 83

Jen, ask Dr. Renihan if he knows where these defenses can be found. Ask him if he knows any of their titles and if they are accessible. I would be very interested in seeing them.

Looks like I might be in serious error.

Thanks,
Randy

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Well, some Particular Baptists believed in individuals singing psalms to the congregation but not congregational singing. I first read of this in James Leo Garrett's book, Baptist Theology: A Four-Century Study. I thought it very odd.

"[Hanserd] Knollys allowed for solo singing if the song had been dictated by the Holy Spirit" (p. 89)

Yes, this is what we were taught in class. The controversy over hymn singing wasn't so much over hymn singing as it was over corporate singing at all, which has always fascinated me.

Me too! Kind of like the intensity and length of time which early Baptists spent fighting over the "laying on of hands after baptism."

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Wow, I want to see why. I am becoming more Reformed the Older I get. I wish I had the resources you guys are quoting. Of course I had a lot of my heroes debunked in other areas concerning the early Church and how they sang. I listened to R. C. Sproul and took his testimony as a 'for sure testimony' that some portions of the New Testament were Hymns. That came up as a dud in my understanding.

 

[JP Wallace]

Martin

I agree I think some of the early baptist did some really silly things, even in omitting or changing some parts of the confession from the WCF. There thinking on sung praise was frankly bizarre in my opinion.

 

[Jen]

Jen,

I have the book and read it years ago. So, I don't remember that much about it. I will take a look at Dr. Haykin's book today. If you can, tell me the pages you were going to type out for me and I ill do it and post it. I know you have to be busy. It is Finals week. AAAAAACCCCCKKKKKK!


Addition.........................................................
I found a quote by Haykin,

;he defended the at length the singing of hymns and even compiled some of his own;
Rediscovering our English Baptist heritage
Michael A. G. Haykin
p. 83

Jen, ask Dr. Renihan if he knows where these defenses can be found. Ask him if he knows any of their titles and if they are accessible. I would be very interested in seeing them.

Looks like I might be in serious error.

Thanks,
Randy

The whole section in Haykin's book goes from the bottom of page 91 to 96, though the portion I specifically had in mind was from the start of the section on 91 to the end of the last full paragraph on 92.

I'll be glad to send Dr. Renihan an email this week on the subject - I kinda feel badly asking right away since I handed in a bunch of papers for him to grade plus he's got his Ministry of the Word students' work to grade. I'll make a note!

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Yeah, you might want to ask him at a more opportune time Jen. I do appreciate your help with this though. I would really like to read Keach on the the issue.

Thanks,

The one who seriously erred, Randy