Is Rap for the church?

[Reformed Roman]

Also

This is quoted from the article

"To deny that words have meaning is to deny the authority of Scripture. Likewise, individual musical notes and sounds are not right or wrong in and of themselves, but the message they convey, and the spirit of that message, can have moral significance."


Exactly. What makes you think they are talking in arrogance? Because the guy is wearing sunglasses? Joyful Noise, the song in the video you posted, always made me grateful for what God did. I didn't listen to it getting man centered. I listened to the lyrics, and just because they were on a catchy beat and got my head bobbing, doesn't mean that the song was sinful or brought pride.

Dancing while your singing, or even dancing in a different fashion then people are used to, doesn't mean there was pride involved.

It's about the words, and the content. Music is neutral. How you use the music is a different issue.

 

[Reformed Roman]

In fact, I've probably cried multiple times listening to that song thinking of what Christ did for me, and used it in "personal worship" just reflecting on the goodness of God.

And as a Christian Hip Hop song says,

"I came from it, you can label me dirt, but don't call me fake because I don't wear suits to the church,

the dude who wears jeans or a suit, who's worse? Clothes don't make up a mans worth,

Pimps wear suits, drug dealers too, but you don't see us labeling those things on you".

Trust me, this song is extremely Christ centered, but I think an important concept can come from the song.

We can't get legalistic. Some people look different. They sound different. Different cultures do things differently. Just because people wear suits doesn't mean they are drug dealers or pimps. Many drug dealers and pimps give a bad name to people who wear suits. Just like people who rap can give a bad name for rap. That doesn't mean wearing a suit is wrong. That doesn't mean rapping is wrong.

 

[Pergamum]

I would rather hear Lecrea in church than to hear the schmaltsy "In the Garden"... "As he walks with me and he talks with me..." or "I know that Jesus lives, because He ...lives...within...my ...heart..." Aargh, those 1910-1920's hymns are some of the worst.

 

[Andres]

Just because people use forks to kill people, doesn't mean we can't use them to eat.

Actually, it means exactly that. Ever been to prison? I'm not trying to be funny here either.

 

[Reformed Roman]

Maybe they can't use forks in prison. With good reason. That doesn't mean I can't use forks to the glory of God in my home.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1rm89CO2raZYdo_FdFun3YGS6aYQYUgdy5y-3R3WXaZg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b-0SfOgy8c&playnext=1&list=PLF5EB469B3FE78C21

The first link is the lyrics... R.C Sproul is on the introduction to the song. Every single line minus a couple was talking about a certain scripture directly.

Christian Hip Hop has some of the most theologically sound lyrics out of any genre of music at all. Even more sound then most worship music.

We don't need to be legalistic and run from many means to share the gospel. Yes, it's completely about the Word of God and the gospel. But we can use genres of music, poetry, writings, movies, or many other things to turn people to the Word of God and the gospel. I just hope people here can realize that

 

[Philip]

It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.

So you would object to Christians who listen to Stravinsky?

 

[Scottish Lass]

I would rather hear Lecrea in church than to hear the schmaltsy "In the Garden"... "As he walks with me and he talks with me..." or "I know that Jesus lives, because He ...lives...within...my ...heart..." Aargh, those 1910-1920's hymns are some of the worst.

I'd rather hear neither in worship, but on my own time I'll pick Lecrea or Shai Linne, etc. every time.

 

[ChristianTrader]

Typically, the poor influence of music upon a particular person is attached to the lyrics or sinful nostalgia associated with that music.

According to whom?

CT

 

[davenporter]

Well, here are my responses to your points. And sorry I haven't read everyones' replies yet, but I was interested so I decided to reply.

1. Christian music as a genre has a lot of baggage, including hymns and especially contemporary worship songs. Look at all the hymns and modern Christian songs that are totally devoid of gospel and honor for God. At least unbelievers know what they're worshipping -- the "Christian" radio station is more of a "feel good about ourselves" station rather than a worship God station. Just saying. Paul found a catalyst on Mars Hill to reach the Gentiles; can't Christians today use music as a catalyst for reaching sinners?

To your second problem: Rap musicians tend to preach more gospel than worship musicians do. Often they take breaks in between songs to PREACH, and their "mini-sermons" tend to be more powerful and gospel-filled than a lot of the pulpit preaching I've heard! Plus, rap music is closer to speech than music in song, and therefore as a genre it is the closest to "preaching" in the sense that the Scriptures describe.

Third, what? How does this show that speech-music (i.e. rap) is inherently sinful conduct?

Why would you limit the gospel like this? Can God use music for His glory? Does God use music for His glory? Can God use musicians who preach the gospel to spread the gospel? Does God use musicians who preach the gospel to spread it? What about black culture where preaching almost becomes rapping sometimes? I've heard it where they start getting into a rhythm and their preaching really sounds like a rap song. Is that wrong? Do we need to reform black culture because it is less than godly since they aren't "dignified" like us? Just sayin'.

Now, your last paragraph is understandable. I can see how you could have issues with that video-- but I don't think the situation is as grave as you think it is. Or maybe it's worse -- a lot of musicians and worship leaders can get pretty cocky. Anyway, your last few paragraphs were a lot better than your outline of reasons. I'd reconsider your post and whether you really want to leave it as is: Reformed Rap: My Thoughts at Christian Research Net

 

[Moireach]

I haven't read any of the comments, but my thoughts are rap doesn't sound like a method of singing that is suitable for a whole congregation to sing in union, and I don't see a place for a singular performance in the church. So for these reasons alone, no.

 

[Redness]

A while ago I heard a fantastic, very convicting sermon by ...I think Angus Stewart, called Pitching Your Tent Sodom. For a long time after hearing it I would ask myself while watching tv, 'am I pitching my tent toward Sodom?' No, I can't watch shows like Sex in the City, No, I can't watch shows like Scrubs, etc (even if they're funny and don't cause ME to sin, but in the watching). Now if you watch the performance video you have to consider, are we encouraging our kids to pitch their tent toward Sodom? It looks like the typical night club scene.

This idea that God is using rap to reach people is unbiblical (in my opinion). God said preach the gospel and not to depend on man's wisdom and eloquence in oratory. This is entertainment plain and simple (in my opinion). To those who say the rap caused them to reach an emotional state I say... why does it take the rap or any music? Isn't the Bible enough? What about the preaching? Just as with the average evangelical, the music created by men gets elevated and the Bible gets diminished. Now along side the Bible in every pew is the man-made hymn book. Try taking that book away and you'll have a war on your hands.

The danger is seen in the video, our children are being conditioned to that scene. This is where it will lead them, the night club. Tell your kids after you've allowed them to buy the CD that they can't go watch the performances. It is in our chruches being used to "reach" the young. Why do our young NEED this to be reached? Again, music is being elevated above the Word. Why are our churches beginning to trust in entertainment to keep our kids in the faith or to enhance it and make it more appealing?

But that's just me, I don't really listen to music anymore anyway. I've thrown that over for the Bible and Sermon Audio and I only let my children listen to classical/instrumental. And because of my instruction, they don't even like the other styles. Rap is particularly repugnant as I was raised in Los Angeles in the 70's and 80's and this was the musical style of the gangs that ran around killing people and terrorizing the City.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I haven't read any of the comments, but my thoughts are rap doesn't sound like a method of singing that is suitable for a whole congregation to sing in union, and I don't see a place for a singular performance in the church. So for these reasons alone, no.

I am glad you feel this way. You are in harmony with the rest of the board. No one is advocating rap in church service.

---------- Post added at 08:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 AM ----------

A while ago I heard a fantastic, very convicting sermon by ...I think Angus Stewart, called Pitching Your Tent Sodom. For a long time after hearing it I would ask myself while watching tv, 'am I pitching my tent toward Sodom?' No, I can't watch shows like Sex in the City, No, I can't watch shows like Scrubs, etc (even if they're funny and don't cause ME to sin, but in the watching). Now if you watch the performance video you have to consider, are we encouraging our kids to pitch their tent toward Sodom? It looks like the typical night club scene.

This idea that God is using rap to reach people is unbiblical (in my opinion). God said preach the gospel and not to depend on man's wisdom and eloquence in oratory. This is entertainment plain and simple (in my opinion). To those who say the rap caused them to reach an emotional state I say... why does it take the rap or any music? Isn't the Bible enough? What about the preaching? Just as with the average evangelical, the music created by men gets elevated and the Bible gets diminished. Now along side the Bible in every pew is the man-made hymn book. Try taking that book away and you'll have a war on your hands.

The danger is seen in the video, our children are being conditioned to that scene. This is where it will lead them, the night club. Tell your kids after you've allowed them to buy the CD that they can't go watch the performances. It is in our chruches being used to "reach" the young. Why do our young NEED this to be reached? Again, music is being elevated above the Word. Why are our churches beginning to trust in entertainment to keep our kids in the faith or to enhance it and make it more appealing?

But that's just me, I don't really listen to music anymore anyway. I've thrown that over for the Bible and Sermon Audio and I only let my children listen to classical/instrumental. And because of my instruction, they don't even like the other styles. Rap is particularly repugnant as I was raised in Los Angeles in the 70's and 80's and this was the musical style of the gangs that ran around killing people and terrorizing the City.

Well you better not let your kids listen to Tchaikovsky. He probably died of syphilis and we know how one gets that. Don't listen to Chopin, he lived his life fornicating with a woman who cross dressed and lived her life as if she was a man. Don't listen to Liszt because he was a playa before the term was invented. He even made his way into the beds of queens and princesses. Don't listen to Bach. He was accused of sleeping with the organist in the practice room during Sunday morning sermons. Don't listen to Russian composers because they were communists and we all know how bad they are. Don't listen to Mozart, he liked to write graphic love letters to women and would include graphic drawings with them. Schubert had syphilis as well.

These composers were homosexuals so make sure not to listen to them either.

And a couple from Broadway.

Peter Tchaikovsky, Symphony 6, First Piano Concerto, Swan Lake (ballet), 1812 Overture

Benjamin Britten & Peter Pears (Beloveds) Serenade, Les Illuminations, Nocturnes, Peter Grimes, Four Sea Interludes, Suite on English Folk Tunes,

Aaron Copleland, Rodeo, Appalachian Spring, Fanfare of the Common Man, Lincoln Portrait

Lou Harrison, Elegy in Memory of Calvin Simmons *, Solstices, Symphony No. 4, Guitar & Percussion, Serenade
*Calvin Simmons was the First African-American Conductor and first conductor of the Oakland Symphony, who drowned in a boating accident
.Samuel Barber, Violin Concerto, Adagio for Strings, Symphony No. 1

Leonard Bernstein, West Side Story, Mass,

John Ireland, Download Suite, The Forgotten Rite, The Overlanders Suite, Satyricon, Tritons, A London Overture, These Things Shall Be, Greater Love Hath No Man, the Holy Boy, Vexilla Regis, Epic March



Cole Porter, Anything Goes, I Get a Kick Out of You, Let's Do It (Let's Fall in Love), I've Got You under My Skin, My Heart Belongs to Daddy

Francis Jean Marcel Poulenc, Les Biches, Dialogues of the Carmelites, Sinfonietta, Concerto for Organ, Strings and Timpani in G minor, Stabat Mater, Gloria, Deux poèmes d'Apollinaire

Charles-Camille Saint-Saëns, The Organ Symphony (#3), Carnival of Animals, Danse Macabre, Samson & Delilah.

Stephen Sondheim, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum,Company, Follies, A Little Night Music, Sweeney Todd, Sunday in the Park with George, Into the Woods and Assassins, as well as the lyrics for West Side Story and Gypsy.

Georg Philipp Telemann, Cantatas, Chamber Music, Orchestral Suites


So with all this sinful lifestyle that classical music composers live, maybe you shouldn't listen to classical music either.

 

[Andres]

Wow! I'm thoroughly impressed by your composer/classical music knowledge. I've learned quite a bit in reading that post.

 

[Joseph Scibbe]

That article was terrible and I find it hard to believe that it was on a website labeled "Christian Research". It was nothing but opinion and preference. Your basic argument is that because "the world" has twisted something and is done in a sinful manner more often than not, then don't do it. Well, if that is the case Christians must cease marital sexual intimacy, driving cars, and eating food (along with..well other things). I may be wrong but I thought part of the Gospel story was that God was using the Church to bring about His new creation and that part of that included "redeeming" certain things that had been taken by the world, like music.

The reason this concerns and troubles me is because God saved me out of the punk rock culture

Then you have a personal weakness for "punk rock" music. It cause's you to sin. It doesn't cause me to sin. So no, I won't take you to a "Christian Punk Rock show" but at the same time I am not going to cease listening to music which can give glory to God in a punk rock style. Why does this article not decry the hypocritical lifestyle of country western? A genre where an artist can sing a great hymn on one track and then turn around and sing about lewd behavior with a girl they met at a bar on the next track?

The second problem I see is that mediums such as Christian Rap are often justified because they are “reaching” people. This is a big problem– it is clearly unscriptural to view music as a tool for evangelism. Scripture unequivocally states that God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe for the very reason that it shouldn’t work (1 Cor. 1:21). When it does, God gets the glory and not man.

So, God never used any other means than expository preaching from a pulpit to bring someone to himself? False. The Ethiopian eunich was brought to faith by someone explaining the Scriptures to him on a road in the middle of the desert. Now, I believe that Scripture is the primary means but not the sole means to bring people to faith.

What you have to show is that a music style is, on its own, sinful. That no matter what you can say through it that that musical style is sinful. You, basically, have to show that the Bible has a list of musical styles that are sinful and a list of those that are not. There is no such list.l

 

[Joseph Scibbe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jkHZP0UPrY&feature=related

Look at all this showboating. How proud and sinful this is! (Sarcasm). Lecrae is one of the most humble and Godly musicians I have ever listened to.

 

[Redness]

In the end we shall see for a tree is know by it's fruit.


Here's some fruit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCIbq0Vs4I4

 

[Andres]

That article was terrible and I find it hard to believe that it was on a website labeled "Christian Research". It was nothing but opinion and preference. Your basic argument is that because "the world" has twisted something and is done in a sinful manner more often than not, then don't do it. Well, if that is the case Christians must cease marital sexual intimacy, driving cars, and eating food (along with..well other things). I may be wrong but I thought part of the Gospel story was that God was using the Church to bring about His new creation and that part of that included "redeeming" certain things that had been taken by the world, like music.

I don't know if your examples completely line up. For example, we know sexual intimacy was created good, by God, for His glory. Same thing with food. Cars might be a bit more debatable, but they are pretty ambiguous. You can use cars for good or for evil, so I see your point there.
You say we are to redeem certain things, but why are we to assume rap music is one of them? This is my issue. As others have mentioned no, I don’t view music as inherently evil. Yes, people can change rap lyrics and make them edifying rather than destructive. But why do we presume we need to do this? Where I agree with the OP and the linked article is that rap is so intimately associated with violence, misogyny, sexual promiscuity, and drug abuse, etc. that I say just leave it to the world.

 

[Reformed Roman]

The fruit? He said everything was built around Jesus. If you listened to the lyrics you would see that's true.

Is jumping up and down sinful? Seriously?

Is dancing sinful? Just because people dance a certain way in a night club doesn't mean it's sinful to dance in any similar way any way else...

Now I would say bumping and grinding is dead wrong, and dancing like that,

but just because this music reminds you of things from your past you assume it's sinful. This music is God centered, and just because people dance or just because people dress differently, and might dress like someone you might see in a night club, again, doesn't mean it's sinful.

This might be how this music affects you. Every time you listen to this type of music it might fully remind you of your old lifestyle of whatever the case may be. All the jumping around might remind you of old sinful ways. Well, that's you, and I'd advise you to listen to different music.

But me? I can jump around in WORSHIP of God. Just thanking God for what He's done. I listen to the lyrics, and these lyrics impact me, and bring me back to the Word of God.

The lyrics are full of humility, right after a song you will see the humility. The only pride you seem to see is because they jump, or because they will use their hands expressively when they rap. Again as many are saying your just jumping the gun on rap because your past experiences with it.

 

[ryanhamre]

Where I agree with the OP and the linked article is that rap is so intimately associated with violence, misogyny, sexual promiscuity, and drug abuse, etc. that I say just leave it to the world.

I do not agree in the least. If your standard of association for anything is its relation to violence, misogyny, sexual promiscuity, and drug abuse, etc., than anything outside of God is going to fit this mold of association.

Singing, dancing, going to work, the mall, internet, eating, etc.

 

[Zenas]

The problem is the presupposition that music is morally neutral.

I don't see how that is a problem, but a necessary baseline that any question begins at. Until shown otherwise, is anything any different? The burden is on the party asserting that it ought to be immoral to show what moral maxim exists that music or a particular genre violates. It's only logical to me, but perhaps I'm not thinking of the issue clearly.

There is much research about the soothing qualities of certain music, and the good and bad emotional and physiological impacts of various music. All the way back to the Greek and Roman philosophers it was understood that music has a great impact on the soul and is not morally neutral at all.

I don't see how this relates to the question of music being inherently moral or immoral. Will you explain a little?

It does not take much common sense in my opinion, to grasp that any music which brings to mind a bunch of naked savages doing a war dance in a ring while torturing their prisoners- before the final death blow and subsequent feast-is not music for Christians.

Maybe rap music brings that to mind for you, but it doesn't for me. That has more to do with your subjective experiences and biases than anything else. I certainly don't think of that when I listen to rap.

I'm a white upper-middle class guy with two children and a wife in a suburb out on the country. I appreciate rap music very, very much despite the sterotypes associated with me and with rap music. If I were to turn rap music off because it is worldly, my radio would have to be tuned to... well it'd just have to be off or playing sermons from my iPod (which isn't a bad option either). To reject rap but still listen to any other genre of music is extremely inconsistent. Even the sappy CCM that is circulated around mimics a worldly genre, usually country or pop music. There is no "CMM" genre of music that exists because of the style of music that it is. CMM is so as a result of the lyrical content. The musical style is still a (very dim) shadow of a worldly musical style.

The arguments against rap music are so tied to the culture that surrounds it that I can't see how they apply to a group of rappers who are completely seperate from that culture; who go so far as to reject it and use rap to preach against it. If the culture surrounding rap is abandonded, then all you're left with is a style of music that focuses on beat-driven lyrics rather than a repetitive melody and celebrates, moreso than other forms of music, clever lyrical ability.

I don't see the requirement that the whole genre be tossed out but we retain country music. I think we as Reformed folk do ourselves a disservice when we try to argue as such and expose a deep-rooted cultural bias that has no grounding in God's Word, but merely flows from personal preference, which we then try to use to bind the consciences of others. We appear foolish, and for all the wrong reasons.

Past that, the "Reformed Rap" crowd is just about the only "contemporary Christian" artists I can enjoy. There are some other groups or CDs that have new takes on hyms that I enjoy, but a large portion of the CMM that I've heard that is self-composed and not using a hymn suffers from two problems: Bad or shallow theology and terrible music overall that simply tries to "ape" a worldly genre (and poorly at that).

I don't find this problem with the rappers. Whereas CCM artists poorly mimic whatever genre they're trying to employ, the Reformed Rappers own it. They're good rappers by anyone's standards. Were they not "Christian" artists, they'd still be considered talented. I don't think too many CCM artists would necessarily have music careers if they weren't singing "Jesus Take the Wheel" or "I Can Only Imagine". Which brings me to my next point: strong theology. Other than Derek Webb, I'm not familiar with any CCM artists who delve terribly deep into any theological issues. Conversely, the rap artists are addressing heavy theological issues in the middle of a rap song that'd be difficult to compose without using theological terms from the 17th century. That's not only talent, but it's edifying.