MUST we forgive?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Forgiveness is dismissing a debt. In the New Testament, the Greek noun aphesis denotes a "dismissal" or "release." When you grant forgiveness, you dismiss the debt owed to you. When you receive forgiveness, your debt is dismissed. When you grant forgiveness, you dismiss the debt from your thoughts. Forgiveness is dismissing your demand that others owe you something, especially when they fail to meet your expectations... fail to keep a promise... fail to treat you justly.

That said, forgiveness is not

- circumventing God's justice
- waiting for time to heal all wounds
- letting the guilty off the hook
- the same thing as reconciliation
- excusing unjust behavior
- explaining away the hurt
- based on what is fair
- being a weak martyr
- stuffing your anger
- a natural response
- denying the hurt
- being a doormat
- conditional (God mandates it!)
- forgetting
- a feeling....

God commands us to forgive. Forgiveness is an act of the will, it is not some emotion.

AMR

 

[Pergamum]

If we are wronged and the wrong-doer is unrepentant, then must we forgive them?

And if so, why does God demand this if He Himself is not bound to this law but sends the unrepentant to hell. Morality is a reflection of the character of God, after all.


Many evangelicals say that we MUST always forgive. they also throw in all sorts of psychological reasons (its healthier to forgive, etc).

 

[J. Dean]

According to Jesus, there is a condition of repentance for forgiveness, even among people (Luke 17:4). Note that Jesus says "if he repents," not "regardless of whether or not he repents."

That being said, we must always be willing and ready to forgive.

 

[bug]

I think a distinction has to be made between our fellow believers and those outisde the church.

Peter tells us that 'love covers a multitude of sins" 1 Peter 4:8. It seems to me that is a call to be forgiving towards our brethren regardless of their actual penitence for the sin commited against us. Now, I do not see that as doing more then God does for us, rather I see it as going excatly what God does do for us. If we are sudeenly snatched away from this life without time to bring the sins of the day befor ethe Lord in prayer does he hold us accountable for those sins or has his love covered the all the christains sins (past, present and future?)

Now, as it relates to the world, I think the example of the Lord Jesus Christ is the one to be followed, 'Father forgive them for they know what they do." Luke 23:34.

 

[Pergamum]

Joshua:

Some of us are hard-headed and need the info twice I guess.

 

[Peairtach]

We are to forgive, but this is not incompatible with seeking justice.

 

[NB3K]

My argument has always been that those who know grace forgive because it is their new nature.

 

[py3ak]

If we are wronged and the wrong-doer is unrepentant, then must we forgive them?

And if so, why does God demand this if He Himself is not bound to this law but sends the unrepentant to hell. Morality is a reflection of the character of God, after all.


Many evangelicals say that we MUST always forgive. they also throw in all sorts of psychological reasons (its healthier to forgive, etc).

Is there someone you would prefer not to forgive?

As to your second question, is God not free to demand of us anything He pleases? And is it not enough to indicate the goodness of an action for us that God has been pleased to demand it? As Matthew Henry says, It is reason enough that God would have it so: his will, as it is law sufficient, so it is reason sufficient; for his will is his wisdom.
We know perfectly well that there is an asymmetry between us, even on this score: God is the God of vengeance, but rather than imitating him in this, we are to leave vengeance to him to whom it belongs. Though we know it is right for God to administer vengeance, we know it is wrong for us to do so.

As to the actual point at issue, what I always wonder is what stature do I have to hold some ultimately minuscule offense against me over someone's head. Who am I that offenses against me should be taken so seriously? Someone may lose my trust or make me uncomfortable in their presence to the point that I even avoid them, but it doesn't seem to me that someone hurting my feelings or damaging me is significant enough to hold it against them.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Great points Bat! Great first question also.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

I think a better question would be, "MUST we seek forgiveness from others, when we have wronged them?"

It's so common to hear people respond, when one person apologizes to another for whatever reason, "Oh, it's okay!" Shouldn't we say back, "NO, IT'S NOT! Sin is serious business! Please, forgive me!" Of course, in some instances people may apologize to each other even if what has happened was a mere accident, nothing intentional. In such cases it may not be necessary to seek forgiveness, I think. What think ye?

 

[saintandsinner77]

1) When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing," were the unbelieving Jews repentant?

2) The Lord's Prayer- "And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"

3) Is God withholding forgiveness from you if you have unrepentant sins of thought and word that you have forgotten to confess?

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

1) When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing," were the unbelieving Jews repentant?

There were some elect among the people who brought about the crucifixion of Christ. This prayer was made concerning them, not any reprobate.

2) The Lord's Prayer- "And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"

In this prayer Jesus regarded Christians as always faithful to forgive their debtors. He was not making God's forgiveness dependent on our forgiveness.

3) Is God withholding forgiveness from you if you have unrepentant sins of thought and word that you have forgotten to confess?

When we confess our sins in general and have faith in Christ, ALL our past, present and future sins are forgiven, not just the ones we're conciously repenting of.

.

 

[saintandsinner77]

1) When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing," were the unbelieving Jews repentant?

There were some elect among the people who brought about the crucifixion of Christ. This prayer was made concerning them, not any reprobate.

2) The Lord's Prayer- "And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"

Note, it does not say, "And forgive us our debts IF we forgive our debtors." Jesus prayed this prayer regarding Christians as always faithful to forgive their debtors. He was not making God's forgiveness dependent on our forgiveness.

3) Is God withholding forgiveness from you if you have unrepentant sins of thought and word that you have forgotten to confess?

When we confess our sins in general and have faith in Christ, ALL our past, present and future sins are forgiven, not just the ones we're conciously repenting of.

1) nonetheless, he was still praying for those who were unrepentant at that time
2) Right- I agree- God forgives freely as we should forgive freely
And yes, I agree, God has taken care of all sin past, present, and future, thus we should not withhold forgiveness from others, whether or not they come to us and ask for forgiveness...freely we have received forgiveness, freely we forgive..

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

1) When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing," were the unbelieving Jews repentant?

There were some elect among the people who brought about the crucifixion of Christ. This prayer was made concerning them, not any reprobate.

2) The Lord's Prayer- "And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"

Note, it does not say, "And forgive us our debts IF we forgive our debtors." Jesus prayed this prayer regarding Christians as always faithful to forgive their debtors. He was not making God's forgiveness dependent on our forgiveness.

3) Is God withholding forgiveness from you if you have unrepentant sins of thought and word that you have forgotten to confess?

When we confess our sins in general and have faith in Christ, ALL our past, present and future sins are forgiven, not just the ones we're conciously repenting of.

1) nonetheless, he was still praying for those who were unrepentant at that time

True.

2) Right- I agree- God forgives freely as we should forgive freely
And yes, I agree, God has taken care of all sin past, present, and future, thus we should not withhold forgiveness from others, whether or not they come to us and ask for forgiveness...freely we have received forgiveness, freely we forgive..

I like the bolded phrase.

.

 

[Peairtach]

And if so, why does God demand this if He Himself is not bound to this law but sends the unrepentant to hell. Morality is a reflection of the character of God, after all.

God is without sin; we don't have that "moral highground". Unforgiveness can pander to our natural self-righteousness.

Even Christ - who was sinless, and would have been justified in unforgiiveness in a way that we wouldn't - showed His forgiving spirit, in praying the Father to forgive His murderers.

We are to forgive, but this is not incompatible with seeking justice.

When I say this, I'm thinking that it is possible to forgive and yet seek appropriate church or civil or other sanctions.

The question of imprecatory prayers and forgiveness is maybe even more difficult.

 

[jogri17]

that is not an evangelical thing, that is a Bible thing. Yes you must always forgive. You do not always have to be friends with those who harm you and get a long with them, but you have to forgive even the unrepentant.

 

[PointingToChrist]

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(Matthew 6:14-15 ESV)

 

[Pergamum]

If we are wronged and the wrong-doer is unrepentant, then must we forgive them?

And if so, why does God demand this if He Himself is not bound to this law but sends the unrepentant to hell. Morality is a reflection of the character of God, after all.


Many evangelicals say that we MUST always forgive. they also throw in all sorts of psychological reasons (its healthier to forgive, etc).

Is there someone you would prefer not to forgive?

As to your second question, is God not free to demand of us anything He pleases? And is it not enough to indicate the goodness of an action for us that God has been pleased to demand it? As Matthew Henry says, It is reason enough that God would have it so: his will, as it is law sufficient, so it is reason sufficient; for his will is his wisdom.
We know perfectly well that there is an asymmetry between us, even on this score: God is the God of vengeance, but rather than imitating him in this, we are to leave vengeance to him to whom it belongs. Though we know it is right for God to administer vengeance, we know it is wrong for us to do so.

As to the actual point at issue, what I always wonder is what stature do I have to hold some ultimately minuscule offense against me over someone's head. Who am I that offenses against me should be taken so seriously? Someone may lose my trust or make me uncomfortable in their presence to the point that I even avoid them, but it doesn't seem to me that someone hurting my feelings or damaging me is significant enough to hold it against them.

Is there someone you would prefer not to forgive?

Not yet. But I had a conversation with a very psychologized evangelical and his point was that we MUST forgive in order to be like Jesus.

---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 AM ----------

As to your second question, is God not free to demand of us anything He pleases?

God demands of us things that are consistent with his nature, the same nature that does not forgive all but sends sinners to hell.

---------- Post added at 01:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 AM ----------

1) When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing," were the unbelieving Jews repentant?

2) The Lord's Prayer- "And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"

3) Is God withholding forgiveness from you if you have unrepentant sins of thought and word that you have forgotten to confess?

Walter,

You asked:

When Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing," were the unbelieving Jews repentant?

I believe that every request by the Son is granted by the Father.

Therefore, all those who the Son asked for the Father gave. At the Cross were some, of which Jesus was speaking, who were forgiven and saved.

Otherwise we would have to believe that Jesus' prayers are not always answered. Not much comfort if He is sitting at the right hand of the Father right now making intercession for us (which sometimes doesn't do any good).

---------- Post added at 01:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 AM ----------

---

jogri17:


You said;

that is not an evangelical thing, that is a Bible thing. Yes you must always forgive. You do not always have to be friends with those who harm you and get a long with them, but you have to forgive even the unrepentant.

I believe your statement more reflects modern psychology or current sentiments than it does the Bible.

---------- Post added at 01:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 AM ----------

And if so, why does God demand this if He Himself is not bound to this law but sends the unrepentant to hell. Morality is a reflection of the character of God, after all.

God is without sin; we don't have that "moral highground". Unforgiveness can pander to our natural self-righteousness.

Even Christ - who was sinless, and would have been justified in unforgiiveness in a way that we wouldn't - showed His forgiving spirit, in praying the Father to forgive His murderers.

We are to forgive, but this is not incompatible with seeking justice.

When I say this, I'm thinking that it is possible to forgive and yet seek appropriate church or civil or other sanctions.

The question of imprecatory prayers and forgiveness is maybe even more difficult.

Richard:

You stated:

Unforgiveness can pander to our natural self-righteousness.

It CAN, but it does not always need to.

It seems that forgiveness is conditioned upon the "IF" of repentance.

 

[py3ak]

God demands of us things that are consistent with his nature, the same nature that does not forgive all but sends sinners to hell.

I think this is a point where people needlessly tie themselves in knots. I think most statements about God's nature might be formally reducible to nonsense, but let us simply take it at face value and press on.

If God commanded you to execute vengeance, that would be right for you to do. The rule of your actions is not the divine nature considered in abstraction from the actual commands he has given you.

God tells us that he is slow to anger, forgiving iniquity, and transgression, and sin and also that He will by no means clear the guilty. It is plainly His prerogative to determine what side of that he wishes us to emulate, and when. And again, the revelation is that vengeance he has reserved for himself, while forgiveness is commanded to us.

Or consider it this way: there is no necessity that any particular person have a relationship with us. Restoration or reconciliation does not have to happen with another human being, because we can mostly limp along without a particular individual. But relationships with God are necessary. Again, there is a lack of symmetry between our case and God's.

Or again; God is sovereign, judge and king. We are roughly equal worms. It is very different for one worm to insist on another's repentance, and for the Creator of them all to require a recognition of the disparity between him and the worm in question.

 

[Pergamum]

Ruben,

So you agree that restoration need not happen if there is no repentance?

 

[jogri17]

I believe your statement more reflects modern psychology or current sentiments than it does the Bible.

Back it up with texts s'il vous plaît. It sounds though , not saying this is the case, but it sounds like someone offended someone you know, doesn't feel like he didn't do anything wrong and will not repent as you feel he ought to.

Happens all the time in the Christian life.

 

[seajayrice]

Yes, albeit at the edge of the sword, one must still forgive.

 

[py3ak]

Ruben,

So you agree that restoration need not happen if there is no repentance?

The question is far too sweeping. You would have to define things much more precisely.

In some cases there must be restoration, even if there is no repentance. For instance, you may rebuke me, I may disagree that I was wrong - and we may have no choice but to work together or go to church together.

In some cases it will probably not happen even if there is repentance; the distance created or the irrevocable decisions made during a time of conflict cannot always simply be overturned in such a way as to make things exactly as they were before.

But we were talking about forgiveness: about holding something against a person or not. And my contention is that your argument from the nature of God doesn't fly, run, or walk - but I don't hold that against you.

 

[Pergamum]

From the John Angell James quote above:

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and comes back to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." But still there are certain duties to be performed towards him even in this obdurate and unrelenting state of mind. We should in the exercise of meekness and gentleness endeavor to convince him of his wrong-doing in the manner laid down in the former essay. We are not, on discovering his impenitence and obduracy, at once to turn away from him in anger and disgust, and leave him to himself, and thus allow sin to lie upon him. And even after all suitable expostulations have been used, and he still remains stubbornly bent upon making no concession, we are not to allow ourselves to cherish enmity and malice towards him; we must harbor no ill-will towards him; we must pray for him—and be willing to do any good to him. Kindness shown to an impenitent offender, in a way that will not seem to connive at his sin, or encourage a repetition of it—may melt his hard heart. This is what the apostle calls heaping coals of fire on his head, and by the agony of a guilty conscience, rendered more susceptible by your forgiveness, melting down the cold, hard substance of his iron heart.

Here we act like God, who though he does not receive impenitent offenders to his favor, or bestow upon them the blessings of his children, still continues to them many providential comforts.

In the bolded section he seems to link our morality to God's moral nature. We as image-bearers must bear some semblance to God's moral nature in order to be moral. So it is a fair argument to ask why God would demand something of us that is not fitting to his own moral nature. And God's moral nature is such that he is willing to forgive, but only actually does so when repentance is present.

 

[Tbordow]

It is true that for those who have not repented we are not called to forgive them, but simply not to curse or pay back evil for evil. Calvin's words on this are very helpful:

"Christ does not command us to forgive save when the sinner is turned to us and declares his penitence...Sins are forgiven in two ways. If anyone does me an injury and I set aside any feeling of revenge and do not cease to love him and even repay him with benefits instead of injuries; although I may think badly of him, as he deserves, yet I may be said to forgive him. For the Lord bids us wish our enemies well, He does not demand that we shall approve in them what He Himself condemns, but only wishes our minds to be purged of hatred. The second sort of forgiving is when we receive a brother into our favour in such a way as to think well of him and be convinced that the memory of his fault is wiped out before God."

Calvin's Commentaries Matt 18:21

 

[py3ak]

In the bolded section he seems to link our morality to God's moral nature.

Not exactly: he says that by doing good to offenders we act like God, that is, we act in the way God acts.

We as image-bearers must bear some semblance to God's moral nature in order to be moral. So it is a fair argument to ask why God would demand something of us that is not fitting to his own moral nature. And God's moral nature is such that he is willing to forgive, but only actually does so when repentance is present.

Again I register my protest that speaking about God's moral nature often does nothing more than needlessly confuse us. Be that as it may, however, it has already been pointed out that the Bible itself registers a difference between God and men in the related area of vengeance. So even if it could normally be presumed that what God does is held out to us for imitation, we are forced to recognize that this is not always the case. And it is not hard to understand: in many respects a father is pleased when his children imitate him; but there are privileges, prerogatives, and responsibilities that he possesses which his child does not possess and should not try to imitate. Is a father a hypocrite when he puts his child to bed at eight while himself staying up until ten? The child does well to imitate his father only in those points which are proposed for imitation. For us to imitate God without warrant is presumption rather than obedience; especially when it brings us to act as though sin were against us, and as though we had the right of releasing or retaining it. Our rule is God's command, not his providence and not his own actions. (Shall we drown the world in a flood? shall we command genocide? shall we punish our son in the place of the neighbor's boy?)

As I said before, every person is necessarily related to God, and to God as judge. But most of us are not judges, and we don't have any judicial relationships to other people that could not be otherwise. The argument from God's moral nature through man's image-bearing to one of us holding something against an individual until he expresses repentance takes no notice of these considerations. Until it accounts for them, it doesn't get off the ground.

Let's put it another way. In addition to the facts that everyone is related to God in a way that no one is related to us; that all sin is ultimately against God; that God is the moral governor of the world and we are not; that God is infinitely beyond us in dignity (and in everything else); that God has a right to require authoritatively what we cannot demand; in addition, I say, to all that is also the fact that God has the power to bestow what he requires. You contend that God demands repentance for reconciliation, and rightly so; but God also exalted Christ to give repentance. Now if you choose to imitate God in holding someone's offense against them, can you also imitate God in bestowing repentance on them? If not, then your putative imitation of God on this point is necessarily partial; and once that is admitted, the nerve of the argument is excised and disposed of.

 

[Pergamum]

It is true that for those who have not repented we are not called to forgive them, but simply not to curse or pay back evil for evil. Calvin's words on this are very helpful:

"Christ does not command us to forgive save when the sinner is turned to us and declares his penitence...Sins are forgiven in two ways. If anyone does me an injury and I set aside any feeling of revenge and do not cease to love him and even repay him with benefits instead of injuries; although I may think badly of him, as he deserves, yet I may be said to forgive him. For the Lord bids us wish our enemies well, He does not demand that we shall approve in them what He Himself condemns, but only wishes our minds to be purged of hatred. The second sort of forgiving is when we receive a brother into our favour in such a way as to think well of him and be convinced that the memory of his fault is wiped out before God."

Calvin's Commentaries Matt 18:21

Thanks, very helpful.

---------- Post added at 10:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

In the bolded section he seems to link our morality to God's moral nature.

Not exactly: he says that by doing good to offenders we act like God, that is, we act in the way God acts.

We as image-bearers must bear some semblance to God's moral nature in order to be moral. So it is a fair argument to ask why God would demand something of us that is not fitting to his own moral nature. And God's moral nature is such that he is willing to forgive, but only actually does so when repentance is present.

Again I register my protest that speaking about God's moral nature often does nothing more than needlessly confuse us. Be that as it may, however, it has already been pointed out that the Bible itself registers a difference between God and men in the related area of vengeance. So even if it could normally be presumed that what God does is held out to us for imitation, we are forced to recognize that this is not always the case. And it is not hard to understand: in many respects a father is pleased when his children imitate him; but there are privileges, prerogatives, and responsibilities that he possesses which his child does not possess and should not try to imitate. Is a father a hypocrite when he puts his child to bed at eight while himself staying up until ten? The child does well to imitate his father only in those points which are proposed for imitation. For us to imitate God without warrant is presumption rather than obedience; especially when it brings us to act as though sin were against us, and as though we had the right of releasing or retaining it. Our rule is God's command, not his providence and not his own actions. (Shall we drown the world in a flood? shall we command genocide? shall we punish our son in the place of the neighbor's boy?)

As I said before, every person is necessarily related to God, and to God as judge. But most of us are not judges, and we don't have any judicial relationships to other people that could not be otherwise. The argument from God's moral nature through man's image-bearing to one of us holding something against an individual until he expresses repentance takes no notice of these considerations. Until it accounts for them, it doesn't get off the ground.

Let's put it another way. In addition to the facts that everyone is related to God in a way that no one is related to us; that all sin is ultimately against God; that God is the moral governor of the world and we are not; that God is infinitely beyond us in dignity (and in everything else); that God has a right to require authoritatively what we cannot demand; in addition, I say, to all that is also the fact that God has the power to bestow what he requires. You contend that God demands repentance for reconciliation, and rightly so; but God also exalted Christ to give repentance. Now if you choose to imitate God in holding someone's offense against them, can you also imitate God in bestowing repentance on them? If not, then your putative imitation of God on this point is necessarily partial; and once that is admitted, the nerve of the argument is excised and disposed of.

There is a reflection of God's moral nature in what God requires of us (be ye holy for I am holy, etc). What God demands in us is not merely arbitrary fiat, but His commandments flow forth from His Nature.

God's moral nature is expressed to us in the form of commandments - these constitute our moral obligations. These obligations reflect God's essential character.

And the quotes given by Calvin, Rutherford and James all verify what I suspected, that where there is no repentance, there needs be no reconciliation, even though kindness and a willingness to forgive is left open to the offending party... and this seems true for both God and man.

---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 AM ----------

I believe your statement more reflects modern psychology or current sentiments than it does the Bible.

Back it up with texts s'il vous plaît. It sounds though , not saying this is the case, but it sounds like someone offended someone you know, doesn't feel like he didn't do anything wrong and will not repent as you feel he ought to.

Happens all the time in the Christian life.

jogri17:

What do you think of the Rutherford, James and Calvin quotes given above? I am in agreement with those quotes.

 

[Prufrock]

Perg, I don't think you should be citing the Rutherford quote in favor of the position you seem to be advocating (or leaning toward?): he explicitly states that between persons forgiveness cannot be contingent on repentance, but must occur whether our enemy repents or not, even as Christ forgave those which crucified him; the only type of repentance he says is contingent upon repentance is reception back into the church - that is, formal, authoritative recognition that his forgiveness of God is ratified in Heaven. This is an authoritative, ministerial act, which exists because the church in its authority is executing a ministerial act on behalf of Christ. This cannot be duplicated among private people. If you will read the Calvin quote closely, with his language of "being convinced his fault is wiped out before God," I think you will find him to be expressing the same idea. As to J.A. James, I cannot speak for that.

More to the issue that Ruben has been well explaining, the commandments are a reflection of God, but certainly not in the manner you are suggesting - we cannot say we are commanded to do something because it's "based on some nature of God which demands he do the same." Does not God have the right over life and death of whom he will? (But surely we do not). Why are we not to kill? Obviously not because it's rooted in God's nature not to kill, but because all men are created in the image of God and because we, unlike God, have no right over the life of another, but must humble ourselves before them; so likewise, why must we forgive? Because our brother is also a creature of God, and we are sinful creatures ourselves who have no inherent, moral right over them, but are to receive them in charity. The commands proceed from God in that they are perfectly just and a perfect representation of his wise will; but one must keep in mind that what is just for the infinite, holy Creator is not always the same as what is just for the finite, sinful creature. Yes, we are to "be holy because God is holy;" but that does not mandate the same actions or imitation of all the same actions - God performs vengeance, whereas we commit vengeance unto him, etc.

 

[py3ak]

There is a reflection of God's moral nature in what God requires of us (be ye holy for I am holy, etc). What God demands in us is not merely arbitrary fiat, but His commandments flow forth from His Nature.

God's moral nature is expressed to us in the form of commandments - these constitute our moral obligations. These obligations reflect God's essential character.

And the quotes given by Calvin, Rutherford and James all verify what I suspected, that where there is no repentance, there needs be no reconciliation, even though kindness and a willingness to forgive is left open to the offending party... and this seems true for both God and man.

"The divine willing is the divine nature." It is faulty theology to posit a division between God's nature and God's will.
As far as your duty goes, God's commandments tell you what to do.
We are still speaking, or at least trying to, of forgiveness. I'm pleased to hear you agree with Rutherford: private Christians are to forgive their Enemies whether they repent, or not.... Positively, that is what I am contending for.
Negatively, I am contending against your method of using an idea that makes God subservient to his own nature as a way to interpret what your duty is. I have raised multiple objections to that line of argument, but so far you appear to have overlooked all the particular objections, and only replied to the general objection. But even if you were right in general in your ideas on that point, you would still have to grapple with the fact that on certain points, as, again, with vengeance, we are told not to imitate God. You would have to account for the difference in ontological stature and official position between us and God. In other words, you would have to set out how created, private Christians in their own sphere imitate God. Divine, judicial forgiveness, on the face of it, is rather different from creaturely, private forgiveness.

Thank you, Paul: are you available to be hired to write posts for me?

 

[Prufrock]

Thank you, Paul: are you available to be hired to write posts for me?

Ruben, my standard rate is one post a week for every serving of vegetables consumed or each new type of food tried during the course of the preceding week. I trust Heidi can provide me with an accurate tally at the end of each week. No guarantees as to the quality of the posts.