1 Corinthians 11:32

[ACBRown]

I've been developing something for Arminians based, partially, on 1 Cor. 11:32. I was wondering if you think this is correct.

Basically, Paul says in verse 30 that some of the Corinthians had become sick, and even a few had died. Why? Sin. Not examining themselves. Now in verse 32, Paul appears to explain why these saints have died or become sick.

He says, "So that we may not be condemned with the world."

Is it right to draw that connection? Is the judging and discipline coordinate with sickness and death?

Here's why I wonder. If God killed some of the saints in order to keep them from being condemned, then this is a rather interesting verse supporting the preservation of the saints. Basically, it would be gracious judgment. Sounds like a oxymoron, but what else is it?

So first. Is that right?

Austin

 

[chbrooking]

See 1 Cor. 5:5, too.

 

[Peairtach]

Seems like an unusual argument. Hopefully most believers don't need to have their deaths hastened in order to prevent them from falling away. But undoubtedly the Holy Spirit uses providences like illness and even death to keep us on the straight and narrow, or to put us back on it.

Thankfully all true believers have also the power and presence of the Holy Spirit who has regenerated them, dwelling in them, to preserve them unto that Day. That is what God has guaranteed to all true believers; the Q is, Are we believers, true Christians, or only Christians?

From the human responsibility side of things it is down to us to persevere, by God's grace.

A better text, among others, for the preservation and perseverance of the saints is I Peter 1:5.

Sometimes true believers don't appear to be persevering in any sense, and yet God may be holding them as His.E.g. Peter when he betrayed Christ, David's sins, Solomon's marriage to many foreign women and worship of false gods.

These were all true believers that even returned to the Lord openly before death. But you wouldn't say that they were showing good signs of perseverance at their worst moments.

Clark

See 1 Cor. 5:5, too.

The experience of being put out of Christ's Kingdom by partial shunning by the Church and by the right to the Lord's Supper being removed, can lead to repentance and the fleshly desires which brought about the sin in the first place being mortified. Properly used church sanctions can bring a brother or sister back onto the straight and narrow by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ACBRown]

I suppose it is an unusual argument, but it is that intriguing "so that" in verse 32 that grabs my attention.

Thanks for brining up 1 Cor 5:5. That is a good passage. I suppose what makes 11:32 even stronger, and more peculiar, is that it is God who is removing the person, but from the earth! And they must be true saints, or surely it wouldn't say "so that we may not be condemned along with the world."

 

[Jack K]

I fear you may be putting too much of an individualistic interpretation on 1 Cor. 11:32. "But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world." An American reads that verse and in his minds sees it as, "...when one of us is judged by the Lord... it is so that person may not be condemned..." If read that way, your point may hold up.

But it says "we" meaning the whole church: "When our church is judged by the Lord (some of us get sick or die) it is so that our church is disciplined and will not be condemned." Taken that way, some have died so that the rest of them will be disciplined and repent. Thus, I think your point, though interesting, doesn't work.

 

[ACBRown]

Hmm, that is a fair point. And maybe that is all one can say. But let me ask this. Two angles:

1. Do you think that the people who died, were they judged by the Lord? If so, then does the "so that" of verse 32 have no reference to them as individuals?

2. What about the tense of the immediate context? Verse 31 is past tense. Paul comments about their state of affairs in verse 30, but then looks back. "If we judged ourselves..." And then in verse 32, the thought continues. "But when we are judged..." It seems clear that this explanation is to serve as a warning to the Corinthians (present tense), but it also appears to comment on what happened to certain individuals... actual people in caskets the Corinthians could conjure in their minds.

Austin

 

[Jack K]

It seems to me clear that some individuals in the church at Corinth died because of abuse of the Lord's Supper. Whether those who died were those most at fault is not certain, although I think it's likely they were due to the individual nature of the preceeding verses that tell an individual to examine himself so as not to eat and drink judgment "on himself."

But then Paul goes on to make a point about the church corporately, that it ought to judge itself (that is, take care to come to the table properly) so as to avoid further incidents of judgment from God. In verse 32 he could've gone back to the "whoever" or "let a person examine himself" sort of language he used earlier IF he meant to say those past individuals died to be spared personal condemnation. But instead he sticks with "we." It makes more sense in context and doesn't raise perplexing questions if we simply take that to mean God was disciplining the church by judging some members so that the rest of them would repent and escape condemnation.

And yes, the illnesses and deaths that'd already happened clearly were God's judgment. What was the eternal destiny of those who died? I wouldn't want to claim to know.

 

[ACBRown]

Thanks for the interaction!

Austin