1 Thessalonians

[Areopagus]

In 1 Thessalonians Paul seems to be reminding these folks to keep alert because the day of the Lord is near. He also reminds them that the wrath is to come, but that they weren't destined for wrath, but for salvation. I'm wondering if Paul meant this in a macro vs. micro sense? I ask because the Thessalonians weren't anywhere near Jerusalem. They wouldn't have seen the "coming" of Christ in judgment.

I'm not making any assertions against an eschatological system. Please, no one begin the crucifixion. I'm merely asking a question out of curiosity. I read this earlier and thought, "Why would Paul say those things if the Thessalonians would never experience the siege of Jerusalem, etc?"

Thoughts?

 

[TimV]

Hey Dustin. Just to give you something to think about, what if the Day of the Lord in this sense means, simply, when you die? If so, plug it into the other questions, and they make sense.

Just and idea,

Best

 

[turmeric]

Looking for my hammer & some good nails...maybe it's about Christ's return. Aren't there ANY prophesies in the NT that aren't fulfilled yet? I'm still waiting for Him to come back. C'mon, guys, you don't have to explain them ALL away!

 

[Areopagus]

It seems like a major proposition in the letter is v.10:

...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

I have to ask myself, "What wrath to come? Is this talking about 70AD, or a wrath to come thousands of years down the road?" This is a great deal to deal with already.

First - "the wrath to come" seems to be cleared up in 2:16 where Paul says:

But God's wrath has come upon them at last.

Who's the "them?" The Jews who, Paul says in v.14-15:

For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved - so as always to fill up the measure of their sins.

Now, I think about a "wrath to come" that "has come upon [the Jews] at last." It seems like the wrath is in fact something imminent. Something else that is interesting is that in the context of 2:10 is Paul's words about the return of Jesus. But what of audience relevancy?

Well, Paul says in 1:10 that they are delivered from the wrath. He also says in 3:13 that the Lord will establish [their] hearts blameless and in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. It seems within the context that this is something imminent, but I confess it could be taken as in the future as well.

Now, here is where it gets interesting - at least to me. In 4:13 Paul begins to move into an encouragement to the Thessalonians. Remember, the audience whom Paul was speaking to is critical. He isn't encouraging us about the saints who have "fallen asleep." He reminds them of the resurrection of Christ which ensures the resurrection of the saints who have fallen asleep. Then comes a telling statement:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

So, Paul says that he and those who are alive will not PRECEDE those who have fallen asleep. So the ones who are currently asleep (the bosom of Abraham?) will rise to Christ before those who are left. And those who are left will be around during the "coming of the Lord." Next Paul describes what this "coming of the Lord" will be like. He says:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.

This seems strikingly similar to the other apocalyptic language that describes the coming of Christ in judgment upon the Jews in 70AD. The Lord would descend (figurative in visual reality concerning the physical body of Christ, but literal in demonstration); there would be a cry of command (Joel 2:11); there would be the voice of an archangel (literally figurative of the call to war and wrath); and the sound of the trumpet of God (1 Cor. 15:52). I'm pressed to think that this is the wrath of God against the Jews in 70AD. Paul says they would be left until this day.

Then Paul says:

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So much for the rapture theology. This destroys it. The dead in Christ will rise first at the coming of the Lord. Then there are those who are left, among whom Paul names himself. Paul says that "then..." The "then," as best I can tell, doesn't mean directly proceeding. The word is "epeita," and means "after that." It's used in 1 Cor. 15:5-8:

...and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeard to more than five hundred brothers at one time...

The first "then" is different from the second "then." The first time "then" is used it literally means directly after, as in the appearance of Christ to the twelve directly after Cephas. It is used after this in the way it is used in Thessalonians. It means "some time afterwards."

Paul's words in Thessalonians make sense then. Wrath was coming. They were delivered from wrath. The wrath will be at the coming of the Lord. They, and Paul, would be alive at the coming of the Lord. They are to be encouraged concerning those who have fallen asleep. Those who are living would not precede those who have fallen asleep. At the coming of the Lord those who sleep will rise first. After that sometime, those who are still alive, among whom is Paul, will rise to meet the Lord in the air and will forever be there.

So, it seems to me that this is in the timeframe of 70AD. The emphasis in 4:13-17 seems to be on those who die and what happens to them. We do not go to the bosom of Abraham. There is no waiting place. We who pass away are present with the Lord in immediacy. I think this ties in to 1 Cor. 15 as well concerning death (but I won't go there in this thread).

More of the context that seems to emphasize an imminent "day of the Lord," is 5:1-2:

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything wirtten to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Paul's words are directed AT the Thessalonians, not me. They are aware of the times and seasons (similar to Matt. 24). They are aware that the "day of the Lord" will come "like a thief in the night." This too is strikingly similar to Matt. 24 concerning the destruction of the temple in 70AD. the comparisons are the same. He then draws their attention once again to the idea of dying and the events that follow:

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

So, whether they are "awake" (alive) or "aslee" (like the old testament saints), they live "with him." The point is that they lived "with Him" right then. They were alive "in" Christ. They lived and moved in Him. They would have understood this. Their breath was Christ. So, if it is this way before they sleep, it will be the same afterwards.

Then another similar thing is mentioned like in 4:18 when Paul says to encourage one another because of this truth, just as they are already doing.

All of this does seem to point to a 70AD wrath from Christ on the Jews in the form of the destruction of the temple and judgment. Yet there is another proposition within this text that is timeless and does effect us as well. Namely, when we die we are present with the Lord. We do not sleep in waiting. This is indeed encouraging.

Thoughts?

Dustin...

 

[VanVos]

Dustin this is how I interpret those passages in 1 Thess:

1 Thess 1:10, 3:13, and 4:16-17 are refering to the Second Coming of Chirst. Where as 1 Thess 5:1-10, 3:14-16 are refering to the judgment upon the Jews in AD70. Notice in 1 Thess 5:1 Paul changes subject by using the word Now concerning...compare with other instances when Paul does this i.e. 1 Thess 4:9, 1 Cor 7:1 these verses mark a change of subject.

VanVos

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

You mean, 1 Thess 1:10, 3:13, and 4:16-17 are referring to the last advent, and 1 Thess 5:1-10, 3:14-16 are referring to the second coming? From what I understand of the terminology, Christ came the first time in the flesh. He came the second time (i.e. the second coming) in the form of wrath on the Jews in 70AD. He will come a last time in the end. Yes I know, it's semantical, but important to define terminology so that we aren't talking past one another.

As far as your view - let me look. I'll dig through it at lunch and then get back with you. Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Dustin...

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

I looked at your passages concerning time frames. I have a couple of questions.

You quote 1 Thess. 4:16-17 as a Last Advent (second coming in your terminology) event.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will alwas be with the Lord.

How do you consider this a Last Advent (second coming) event when Paul says that it applies to "we who are alive," meaning the Thessalonians who were reading that letter. Paul even includes himself in this audience by saying, "who are left." How do you interpret that within the context?

Also, you cite 1 Thess. 4:14-16 as a second coming (judgment on the Jews in 70AD) event. How do you dissect the 2 within the same pericope of Scripture? In other words, you cite v.16 as a Last Advent and Second Coming event. How does that work?

In Him,

Dustin...

 

[VanVos]

How do you consider this a Last Advent (second coming) event when Paul says that it applies to "we who are alive," meaning the Thessalonians who were reading that letter. Paul even includes himself in this audience by saying, "who are left." How do you interpret that within the context?

I shared these thoughts on a previous thread:

In interesting to note that Paul else where users the word "we"to refer to the entire church:

Rom 14:7-8

Quote:
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

2 Tim 2:10-13
Quote:
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him] If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him],he also will deny us If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


I think we have the same usage of the word "We" in 1 Cor 15:51-53.

VanVos

[Edited on 3-9-2005 by VanVos]

 

[VanVos]

Also, you cite 1 Thess. 4:14-16 as a second coming (judgment on the Jews in 70AD) event. How do you dissect the 2 within the same pericope of Scripture? In other words, you cite v.16 as a Last Advent and Second Coming event. How does that work?

In Him,

Dustin...

I do not think 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a reference to AD70. When I use the the phrase the Second Coming I mean the Last Advent. I believe only 1 Thess 5:1-10 and 1 Thess 2:16 is a reference to AD70 in 1 Thess.

VanVos

[Edited on 3-9-2005 by VanVos]

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

How is it that you separate 1 Thess. 4:16-17 from 1 Thess. 5:1-2? It's in the immediate context of Paul speaking to the Thessalonians about the "coming of the Lord" (paralleled with Matt. 24:24-28 - extremely interesting). Even more interesing is that, following the pattern of Matt. 24, Paul then speaks of the times and seasons being known by them in 1 Thess. 5 (parallel with Matt. 24: 32-44).

I guess my contention with your understanding, or interpretation of the text, is that I don't see the switch in Paul's thinking. Nor do I see the switch in terminology or the audience.

Am I missing something?

I appreciate your clearing up the Second Coming - Last Advent thing. I was seeing the references you cited wrongly. I apologize.

Dustin...

[Edited on 3-9-2005 by Areopagus]

 

[VanVos]

I would refer you to a previous statement.

Notice in 1 Thess 5:1 Paul changes subject by using the word Now concerning...compare with other instances when Paul does this i.e. 1 Thess 4:9, 1 Cor 7:1 these verses mark a change of subject.

This same greek phrase is used else where in Paul letters to mark a change in subject. That's why I believe 1 Thess 5:1-10 is speaking of a different subject, which is the day of Lord that is further explained in 2 Thess 2

And Yes I do believe 1Thess 5 and Matt 24 are speaking of the same event AD70.

[Edited on 3-9-2005 by VanVos]

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

I see what you are saying, but I still don't see that interpretation. Not that it matters if I see it or not.

Listen, the flow of 1 Thess. 4:16 through the end is about the resurrection of the saints who were asleep, the resurrection of those who were left, who were still alive, and the day of the Lord (the phraseology and contextual consideration is almost precisely like Matt. 24). Then in chapter 5 Paul says, "Now concerning the times and seasons..." (which is also like Matt. 24 sequentially with 1 Thess. 4) Is this a subject change? Slightly! I'll grant you that. Is it a completely different topic altogether? I don't believe so.

If I were to say, "1VanVos, I don't want you to be discouraged about my posting a response to you. 2When I post it will be like a roaring thunder of a response. It will impact your life, and mine as well. 3Now, concerning the signs of my posting..." Have I changed subjects in between Vs.2 and 3? Slightly, but not entirely. Do you see my point? All I've said is that I will post, you will know it, it will effect both of us, and then I tell you that I'm going to talk about the signs of my soon to be post. How do you say that the topic is completely different?

Dustin...

 

[turmeric]

Dustin;
Are you saying there was a rapture back in 70AD?

 

[VanVos]

Originally posted by Areopagus
VanVos,

I see what you are saying, but I still don't see that interpretation. Not that it matters if I see it or not.

Listen, the flow of 1 Thess. 4:16 through the end is about the resurrection of the saints who were asleep, the resurrection of those who were left, who were still alive, and the day of the Lord (the phraseology and contextual consideration is almost precisely like Matt. 24). Then in chapter 5 Paul says, "Now concerning the times and seasons..." (which is also like Matt. 24 sequentially with 1 Thess. 4) Is this a subject change? Slightly! I'll grant you that. Is it a completely different topic altogether? I don't believe so.

If I were to say, "1VanVos, I don't want you to be discouraged about my posting a response to you. 2When I post it will be like a roaring thunder of a response. It will impact your life, and mine as well. 3Now, concerning the signs of my posting..." Have I changed subjects in between Vs.2 and 3? Slightly, but not entirely. Do you see my point? All I've said is that I will post, you will know it, it will effect both of us, and then I tell you that I'm going to talk about the signs of my soon to be post. How do you say that the topic is completely different?

Dustin...

Does Paul not change to a different subject in 1 Thess 4:9?. He first writes on sexual purity, concluding in verse 8 and then goes on to write about brotherly love. I'm not saying that the subjects are not connected in anyway, but Paul does change the subject significantly enough for the reader to understand that he is addressing a different issue. In other words there can be a connection of thought from one subject to the next i.e. 1 Thess 4:8-9 Sexual purity is related to brotherly love, but they are to be understood as two different topics.

VanVos

 

[Areopagus]

Turmeric,

A rapture? What do you mean by rapture? Explain, from the text, what you mean. That would help.

VanVos,

I understand that the specifics of an overall subject can vary within a body of writing. I agree with you. But you are suggesting that Paul goes from one flow of thought in this letter to the Thessalonians, to a completely different thought. Now, this wouldn't be too strange were it not for the subject matter. For instance, to go from sexual purity into brotherly love makes sense. The two are interconnected. But to flow from a topic of the end of all things directly into the topic of the destruction of the temple in one sentence seems very far fetched. Now, that by itself is a strawman. I admit this. Consider it food for thought.

But when you take into consideration the total flow of what Paul is saying, it becomes more hard to digest. At the end of chapter 3 Paul makes a statement:

...so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

Those are 2 ideas: being sanctified and the coming of the Lord Jesus.

The first idea is expounded upon in the first half of chapter 4 - the will of God is their sanctification. All of it is tied into the end of chapter 3 (and really the letter in and of itself). Then in the second half of chapter 3 we see:

But we do not want you to be uninformed brothers, about those who are asleep...

Paul is now addressing the second half of the second proposition from the end of chapter 3, i.e. the coming of the Lord with the saints. Paul doesn't want them to be uninformed or to grieve. He then goes on to tell them that they, and Paul includes himself in this, would be alive at the coming of the Lord. This then cannot mean the Last Advent. In v.17 the word "then" is used as the connector to the idea of the coming of the Lord and the saints who are asleep meeting the Lord in the air. That word "then" is epeita and means some time, or shortly, thereafter. Do we suddenly make the leap in quantum doctrine to say that this means thousands of years later? Paul ends this overall arching idea of "the coming of the Lord" with:

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

And directly tied into all of this is the sentence you say divides it all:

Now concerning the times and the seasons...

He went micro to macro. It's the same topic, the same event, but becoming more specific.

1. Christ will establish you
2. Christ will come with His saints
3. The will of God is your sanctification
4. Be sanctified
5. The saints who are asleep are going first
6. The Lord is coming
7. Encourage one another
8. Concerning the times and seasons of that coming, you already know

That seems to be the flow of thought.

Dustin...

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

Something else I just thought about that is directly tied into all of this is 2 Thessalonians 2.

Remember, in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 we are dealing with the "coming of the Lord." Paul seems to say that they, those who are left, those who are alive, of which Paul includes himself, would be there for this "coming of the Lord." You say this is the Last Advent and separated from 5:1-2. Notice what 2 Thess. 2:1-12 says:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Who is being addressed here? Is it us, or the Thessalonians? Were there apparently letters, rumors, etc, going around that this "coming of the Lord" had already happened? Apparently so. And what were Paul's words to them? He says do not "be quickly shaken in mind." Do not be "alarmed." Why? Because Paul reminded them that although this event would come suddenly, peole would be saying, "Peace and security," and that it would come in their lifetime (4:17), they knew what to look for. Interestingly enough, in 2 Thess. 2 Paul even becomes more specific.

Dustin...

 

[VanVos]

I agree that 2 Thess is addressing the events surounding AD70. But just because the word parousia is used doesn't mean that it is the same event as 1 Thess 4:16-17 The word 'coming' is not a technically term so you have to allow context to determine your interpretation. For example 1 Thess 4:16-17 is speaking of the resurrection, the passage is clearly addressing the redemption of the body. When this event does happpen then (immediately after the Lord returns with those who died in Chirst) we who alive and remain will meet the Lord in the air.

I do believe the is a flow of thought in 1Thess 4-5 but that doesn't mean he is addressing the same event. The main point in 1 Thess 4-5 is an exhortation to continue in God's will 1 Thess 4:1. In Thess 4:15-17 he exhorts the people at Thessalonica not to lose hope because some have died in the faith, because one day they will meet them again. And Thess 5 exhorts them to remain sober and not to be deceived by those who say that they are living in a time of peace. The flow of thought is continuing in God's will even if it doesn't seem to be worth it.

VanVos

[Edited on 3-10-2005 by VanVos]

 

[turmeric]

Thanks, VanVos, that was the issue which occasioned my rather uncharitable post earlier on this thread. You clarified it.

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

Forgive my persistence, but I still have questions concerning your position.

It's your claim that 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is a separate event from 1 Thess. 5:1-2. You claim this because of this phrase, "Now concerning the times and the seasons..." and say that the "Now" indicates a total subject change.

So, when we go through 1 Thessalonians and read:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 ...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Which event does this refer to?

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

Which event does this refer to?

1 Thessalonians 3:13 ...so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Which even does this refer to?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which event dose this refer to?

I'd like to know that way I can see if you switch the events, or if there is consistency.

Another thing of great importance, at least in my opinion, is the fact that in v.17 Paul says of those who are left, who remain (he includes himself in this bunch), that they "will be caught up together with" the saints who were raised at the coming of the Lord. He says, "Then..." in the beginning of v.17. This word is epeits, as I've pointed out, and it means thereafter. It is used in 1 Cor. 15:5-6 (also in Gal. 1:18, 21). It doesn't mean thousands of years later. This would have confused the audience reading the book, yes? It meant not directly after the mentioned event, but very soon indeed.

Another thing that needs to be addressed is the wording of 4:15-17. You say it refers to the Last Advent. However, look at the similarities between this and Matt. 24:

1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 - 1 Thess. 4:16
2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 - 1 Thess. 4:16
3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 - 1 Thess. 4:16
4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 - 1 Thess. 4:16
5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 - 1 Thess. 4:16
6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 - 1 Thess. 4:17
7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 - 1 Thess. 4:17
8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 - 1 Thess. 5:1-2
9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 - 1 Thess. 5:2,4
10. Unbelievers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 - 1 Thess. 5:3
11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 - 1 Thess. 5:3
12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 - 1 Thess. 5:4
13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 - 1 Thess. 5:7

In Matthew 24 Christ says that in that generation He would gather together His saints. Paul is saying the same thing here. Thoughts?

Dustin...

[Edited on 3-10-2005 by Areopagus]

[Edited on 3-10-2005 by Areopagus]

 

[VanVos]

Dustin,

1 Thess 1:10, 2:19, 3:13 and 5:23 all refer to the last Advent.

I believe the word 'then' in verse 17 is addressing what will happen when the Lord descends from heaven. At that time the saints that are alive on the earth will be glorified with saints that return with Him. In other words when Christ does descend from heaven our redemption will be immediately completed.

Concerning Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 I don't believe that they are speaking of the same event. But I do think Matt 24 can be cross referenced with 2 Thess 2. Here's an interesting excerpt from a Kenneth Gentry's article on 2 Thess 2

Furthermore, the "gathering together to Him" mentioned by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 picks up on the reference of our Lord in Matthew 24:31. The word translated "gather together" here is episunagoge, which is found elsewhere only in Hebrews 10:25, where, significantly, it speaks of a worship assembly. But its cognate verb form is found in Matthew 24:31, where the gathering is tied to "this generation" (Matt. 24:34) and signifies the calling out of the elect into the body of Christ with the trumpeting in of the archetypical Great Jubilee (cf. 2 Thess. 1:11; 2:14).[14] Here it functions in the same way. With the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, Christians would from thenceforth be "gathered together" in a separate and distinct "assembly" (episunagoge; the Church is called a sunagoge in James 2:2). After the Temple's destruction, God would no longer tolerate going up to the Temple to worship (it would be impossible!), as Christians frequently did prior to A.D. 70.[15]

VanVos

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

Thanks, I appreciate that piece by Gentry. I like him a lot. And you know, when all is said and done, this really isn't that big of a deal. Like I said in the beginning, the only piece of 1 Thess. that I'm really working through is the section we are discussing, i.e. 4:15-17. So, this is really good for me. I thank you for your time.

Ok, a hang up that I still have, and one that no one has addressed, is the fact that Paul is speaking to a specific audience. More, he includes himself in the bunch that will be forever with the Lord. Here's the thing, the context of 16 and 17 of chapter 4 are directly connected. The word "then" does in fact indicate that shortly after the event just talked about (in this case it is either the 70AD event or the Last Advent - whereby the saints who sleep go first) the writer and his audience will experience something similar. How is this reconciled? How do you disconnect Paul and the audience from something he, Paul, says will happen very shortly after the dead saints are raised? If you say, "Well, because at the Last Advent the dead saints will be raised, then Paul and the audience who have died," I have a question:

1. In v.14 Paul says that God will come with those who had slept. Immediately in the context is what we are talking about. So is this Christ coming at the Last Advent, the dead raising, then Paul and the other saints rising too, but then directly after rising they come back with God?

Do you see the confusion? The text says that God is coming with His saints. I am assuming that these are the saints talked about in the context that are raised. Then the text says that those who are alive, who are left (that's Paul and the other Christians) will also meet the Lord in the air. It says then that they will forever be with Him. Do we divorce this from the context and apply it to thousands of years later after Paul and those who were left have died?

Dustin...

 

[VanVos]

Dustin,

I do not believe those who alive and remain has to include Paul or even the people Paul originally wrote to. Certianly the word 'we' can't refer to Paul himself because he died before AD70, and neither does it have to refer to Paul contemporaries in Thessalonica. I think I commented on this in a previous post, that Paul uses the word 'we' to refer to the church at large:

Rom 14:7-8
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

2 Tim 2:10-13
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him] If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny[him],he also will deny us If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

In other words the word 'we' represents the not yet glorified/resurrected church, which includes Paul, the people of Thessalonica, and all those who will be raised on the last day. Note Thess 5:27 is for all the brethren.

Hope this helps VanVos

[Edited on 3-11-2005 by VanVos]

 

[Areopagus]

VanVos,

You say:

Certianly the word 'we' can't refer to Paul himself because he died before AD70

Now be careful about throwing around those statements. Just because you don't see how it can fit doesn't mean that it doesn't. I do see how the "we" can refer to Paul himself. Paul said that those who were alive, who were left (and Paul was one of them) would be caught up in the air to meet the Lord. In what way? After death. When? Shortly after this "coming of the Lord" occurred. That's the crux of the issue thought, isn't it?

You say the "coming of the Lord" in that passage is the Last Advent. I say it might be the coming of the Lord in wrath against the Jews in 70AD. If you are right then I am wrong. If I am right, then you are wrong. Granted, Paul uses the word "we" to the church universal, but context should define the text. I've shown you that the word "then" in v.17 means "shortly thereafter." That would indicate Paul's lifetime. More, the flow of the context doesn't lend towards your view, in my opinion. Chapter 5 seems to move right into talking about the times and seaons of what Paul just got through talking about.

I'll just have to keep studying. I think my next step is to do an in-depth word study through 15-17.

Best,

Dustin...