666 or 616

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American Vision.org


The Mark of the Beast"”666 or 616?
By Gary DeMar

A fragment from the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament shows that the number of the Beast of Revelation 13 is 616. Ellen Aitken, a professor of early Christian history at McGill University, states that "œthe majority opinion seems to be that it refers to [the Roman emperor] Nero."1 The early fragment supports the view that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and whether the number is 666 or 616, the number is a reference to Nero and not some end-time antichrist figure. Only time will tell how this discovery will affect dispensationalism.

The first readers of Revelation were told to "œcalculate the number of the Beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six" (13:18). Since Revelation was written to a first-century audience, we should expect the first-century readers to be able to calculate the number with relative ease and understand the result. They would have had few candidates from which to choose. Notice that the number is "œsix hundred and sixty-six, not three sixes." Tim LaHaye misidentifies the number when he writes, "œThe plain sense of Scripture tells us that it comprises the numbers: six, six, six."2 The three Greek letters that make up the number represent 600, 60, and 6.

Ancient numbering systems used an alpha-numeric method. This is true of the Latin (Roman) system that is still common today: I=1, V=5, X=10, L=50, C=100, D=500, M=1000. Greek and Hebrew follow a similar method where each letter of their alphabets represents a number. The first nine letters represent 1"“9.3 The tenth letter represents 10, with the nineteenth letter representing 100 and so on. Since the Book of Revelation is written in a Hebrew context by a Jew with numerous allusions to the Old Testament, we should expect the solution to deciphering the meaning of six hundred and sixty-six to be Hebraic. "The reason clearly is that, while [John] writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of expression."4

When Nero Caesar's name is transliterated into Hebrew, which a first-century Jew would probably have done, he would have gotten Neron Kesar or simply nrwn qsr, since Hebrew has no letters to represent vowels. "œIt has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud contains this very spelling."5 When we take the letters of Nero's name and spell them in Hebrew, we get the following numeric values: n=50, r=200, w=6, n=50, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 666. "œEvery Jewish reader, of course, saw that the Beast was a symbol of Nero. And both Jews and Christians regarded Nero as also having close affinities with the serpent or dragon. . . . The Apostle writing as a Hebrew, was evidently thinking as a Hebrew. . . . Accordingly, the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the name"”that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment that he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as "˜Neron Kesar.´"6

The fragment supports the reading of some Greek New Testament manuscripts that read 616 instead of 666. Why would someone making a copy of the Revelation scroll make such a number change? "œPerhaps the change was intentional, seeing that the Greek form Neron Caesar written in Hebrew characters (nrwn qsr) is equivalent to 666, whereas the Latin form Nero Caesar (nrw qsr) is equivalent to 616." A Latin copyist might have thought that 666 was an error because Nero Caesar did not add up to 666 when transliterated into Latin. He then changed 666 to 616 to conform to the Latin rendering since it was generally accepted that Nero was the Beast. In either case, a Hebrew transliteration nets 666, while a Latin spelling nets 616. Nero was the "œman" and either 666 or 616 was his number.



...............................................................................

1 Quoted in Chris Wattie, "œBeast´s real mark devalued to "˜616´: Revelation fragment," National Post www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/toronto/story.html?id=702d14ee-4847-4c3d-90ce-46e933232df0

2 Tim LaHaye, Revelation Unveiled, rev. ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 226"“227.

3 The Greek letter stigma (ù) is no longer used, but it was the sixth letter in the Greek alphabet when the New Testament was written. The Greek letter iota (3) was the tenth letter. Today, because of the absence of stigma, it is now the ninth letter.

4 R.H. Charles, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Revelation of St. John, 2 vols. (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1920), 1:cxliii.

5 Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., The Beast of Revelation, rev. ed. (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2001), chap. 3. Also see Charles, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Revelation of St. John, 1:367.

6 Frederic W. Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity (New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1882), 471.

7 Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (London: United Bible Societies, 1971), 751"“52.
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[Edited on 5-10-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]
 
Quote:***There is more to it than that, but you need to study some Greek before you make authoritative statements about the translation of Rev 13:18.***

I am Greek.

andreas.:banana:
 
Originally posted by andreas
Quote:***There is more to it than that, but you need to study some Greek before you make authoritative statements about the translation of Rev 13:18.***

I am Greek.

andreas.:banana:
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Okay, maybe you need to study some English then? :banana:
 
"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of Man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;" Romans 2:9

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart Of Man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.1 Corr.2:9

IN ROMANS AND CORINTHIANS WE HAVE THE SAME EXACT WORD AS IN REVELATION 13.

andreas.:candle:
 
Quote:***Finally, as I mentioned to begin with, the fraction "2/3" does NOT equal .666 when converted to decimals. It actually equals an infinite number of sixes after the decimal point. And even if you *do* round it off to three decimal places, it comes to .667, NOT .666 --- Your eschatological math just doesn't add up.***


Throughout history the number of the unsaved is 2/3, and the number of the saved is1/3.These are fractions of the total number.We have to count them as fractions, because there is no way you can count a number by itself,but you can count it as a fraction of the total.Please forget about the decimals,for we are not dealing with literal numbers but symbolic numbers.

andreas.:candle:
 
Two divided by three = 0.66666666...............

We can continue ad naseum.It is the facts you consider,and you either accept or reject them.

andreas.:candle:
 
Originally posted by andreas
Two divided by three = 0.66666666...............

We can continue ad naseum.It is the facts you consider,and you either accept or reject them.

andreas.
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Someone obviously never paid attention in math class.

1) If you go on "ad naseum" as you said, then you end up with a lot more than 3 sixes. In fact, you end up with an infinite number of them. So if you go on "ad naseum", then it won't match the "666" of Revelation, will it?

2) However, if you round off to 3 digits, you get ".667", NOT ".666". Ask ANY math professor in college, high school, or ANYWHERE.

You are arbitrarily choosing to round off incorrectly, so that you can force a square peg into a round hole. But sorry, 2/3 rounded off to 3 digits is .667, not .666. That's the way it has always been and always will be.

Your math is incorrect. If you don't believe me, then ask a math professor. Or simply go online to an elementary mathematics website and lookup "rounding off numbers". It's not rocket science. My dad teaches his 4th graders and 5th graders how to do it in the classroom.

I can't believe I'm actually having to tell someone how to round off a number in this forum.

Andreas, I'm the one giving you the mathematical facts. You can either accept them or reject them.
 
We are not dealing with literal numbers but symbolic numbers and what applies to the literal does not apply to symbolism.
andreas.:candle:
 
You have obviously paid a lot of attention in your maths classes as you tell us,but i have not seen you explain HOW YOU COUNT THE NUMBER, as we are asked to do.In other words,please tell us how you calculate,and evaluate the number. Could it be that the maths expert has no answer or could it be that we are not dealing with a mathematical problem,since we are given ONLY ONE NUMBER. How do you count one number?PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US.

andreas.:candle:
 
It isn't "one number" in Greek, actually. It is not "666" but 600, 60, 6. Check my lenghty quotation of Gary Demar above, for how you calculate the number, friend.
 
To be specific,it is not actually numbers as you say,but letters,chi, xi ,sigma, of the Greek alphabet, representing numbers respectively 600, 60 and 6. In other words, six hundred and sixty and six as a numeral. I keep telling you, that i am not interested in what man says,but what the word of God says.Learned christians can give us direction but that is all.
andreas.:candle:
 
Thanks for the link Kerry. On David Reed's website he quotes Martin Luther as saying that the 'abomination of desolation' is the image of Caligula set up in the temple. Though Caligula intended that to happen, it never came about because Caligula was mudered.

So what do you eschatologists believe is the 'abomination that causes desolation' and why did Luther think Caligula succeeded?
 
Originally posted by andreas
We are not dealing with literal numbers but symbolic numbers and what applies to the literal does not apply to symbolism.
andreas.:candle:
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That's precisely why your 2/3 comment makes no sense. You only get from "two thirds" to "666" by fudging the math in literal numbers.

BTW, where does it say to multiply by 1000?

[Edited on 5-13-2005 by tcalbrecht]
 
Originally posted by andreas
I keep telling you, that i am not interested in what man says,but what the word of God says.Learned christians can give us direction but that is all.
andreas.:candle:
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Are you trying to give us direction?
 
I am not trying to give you anything.I can not give you the truth.That comes solely from the spirit of God,through the word of God.

andreas.:candle:
 
I will try once more to :scholar: what i mean by the 2/3,and 666.


The number originally had its beginning in Zechariah 13, where it says in verse 8: "Two-thirds I will cut off and destroy, but one-third" And it goes on to speak about the redemption of the one-third.

We also read about David, when he defeated the Moabites, that he caused them to lie down in three lines. Two of the lines he put to death. One line he spared, and they served him. David there was a type of Christ as Messiah, the two-thirds a figure of those who are under the judgment of God, the one-third a figure of those who are saved.

In II Kings 1 we read of Elijah, that he was sent for by the wicked king of Israel. And a company of men came to take him, and he called down fire from heaven, and they were destroyed. A second company of men came to take him, and he called down fire from heaven, and they were destroyed. A third company of men came to take him, and plead for mercy, and they were spared. Again we have two-thirds being destroyed, one-third being spared.

Now the number 0.666 is approximately 2/3 of ONE whole,one short of all three thirds.The only way we can count the number of the beast, is as a fraction of a whole,or total number,SINCE WE ARE ONLY GIVEN ONE NUMBER..In this case, a fraction of the total ,irrespective of what number the total is.I consider the total as the total mass of humanity,2/3 of which are lost and 1/3 of which are saved.Forget about multiplying by one thousand ,THE FACT REMAINS THAT, TWO THIRDS,(OR 0.666)OF A WHOLE(1.00), IS TWO THIRDS.The number of the beast is 666, for it represents the total number of the lost ,Satans followers.
Either this helps or i opened up a big :worms:

andreas.:candle:
 
Originally posted by andreas
Either this helps or i opened up a big :worms:

andreas.:candle:
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The can of worms is that you are mixing apples and oranges.

First of all, "two thirds" as a decimal representation is modern, not ancient. To believe that "666" somehow is related to the decimal approximation of "two thirds" is to deny the opening words of Revelation, "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

Secondly, "666" is said to be the number of "man" or "a man", depending on your translation. It does not say it is the number of "all unsaved men" as you wish to intrepret it.

Thirdly, in Revelation it is the "one third" not "two thirds" that falls under the wrath of God, e.g.,

The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. (Rev. 8:7,8,9)
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So, there are a number of issues that you need to reconcile before an ironclad identification can be made.
 
Quote;***The can of worms is that you are mixing apples and oranges.***

I know my apples and oranges.Do you?

Quote:***First of all, "two thirds" as a decimal representation is modern, not ancient. To believe that "666" somehow is related to the decimal approximation of "two thirds" is to deny the opening words of Revelation, "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." ***

You have totally ignored or have not read the scripture i provided where God,not i,tells us that 2/3,will be CUT OFF AND DIE.
God is asking us to calculate the number of the beast.Scripture interprets scripture.What is wrong with the decimal number?Are you saying that God was not aware of it?Is the bible out of date?what exactly is modern scripture?The word of God is the same yesterday,today and tomorrow.."For i am the Lord ,I change not".Mal 3:6

Quote:***Secondly, "666" is said to be the number of "man" or "a man", depending on your translation. It does not say it is the number of "all unsaved men" as you wish to intrepret it***

The word says,"Count the number of the beast,for it is the number of man".Rev.13:18.Now answer me this.Is the beast snow-white?To deny that 666, it is the number of the unsaved man, is disregarding scripture.
andreas.:candle:
 
Originally posted by andreas
THE FACT REMAINS THAT, TWO THIRDS,(OR 0.666)OF A WHOLE(1.00), IS TWO THIRDS.The number of the beast is 666, for it represents the total number of the lost ,Satans followers.
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Your math is still incorrect. 2/3 of 1000 is 667, not 666. Ask any math professor.

Do you really think God is that bad at math?
 
Originally posted by andreas
Quote;***The can of worms is that you are mixing apples and oranges.***

I know my apples and oranges.Do you?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure you do. The jury is still out.

Originally posted by andreas

Quote:***First of all, "two thirds" as a decimal representation is modern, not ancient. To believe that "666" somehow is related to the decimal approximation of "two thirds" is to deny the opening words of Revelation, "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." ***

You have totally ignored or have not read the scripture i provided where God,not i,tells us that 2/3,will be CUT OFF AND DIE.
God is asking us to calculate the number of the beast.Scripture interprets scripture.What is wrong with the decimal number?Are you saying that God was not aware of it?Is the bible out of date?what exactly is modern scripture?The word of God is the same yesterday,today and tomorrow.."For i am the Lord ,I change not".Mal 3:6
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God was aware of calculus and nuclear physics. That does not mean we find explicit evidence of them in the Bible.

The fact remains that we have no biblical reason to relate the "two thirds" (literally something like "two parts") of Zech 13 to the "six hundred and sixty six" of Revelation.

Originally posted by andreas

Quote:***Secondly, "666" is said to be the number of "man" or "a man", depending on your translation. It does not say it is the number of "all unsaved men" as you wish to intrepret it***

The word says,"Count the number of the beast,for it is the number of man".Rev.13:18.Now answer me this.Is the beast snow-white?To deny that 666, it is the number of the unsaved man, is disregarding scripture.
andreas.:candle:
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Thanks for making the point that the phrase is best interpreted as "the number of a man" since it is the number of "the beast".

What about my third point, which you ignored, that in Revelation it is the "one part" (not two parts) that receives the wrath of God?

[Edited on 5-15-2005 by tcalbrecht]
 
L : lambda : 30
A : alpha : 1
T : tau : 300
E : epsilon : 5
I : iota : 10
N : nu : 50
O : omicron : 70
S : sigma : 200
------------------------
Total = 666

Lateinos, Latin man, in the ancient greek spelling totals 666.
 
When we take the letters of Nero's name and spell them in Hebrew, we get the following numeric values:

n=50
r=200
w=6
n=50
q=100
s=60
r=200
_______
666

"œEvery Jewish reader, of course, saw that the Beast was a symbol of Nero. And both Jews and Christians regarded Nero as also having close affinities with the serpent or dragon. . . . The Apostle writing as a Hebrew, was evidently thinking as a Hebrew. . . . Accordingly, the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the name"”that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment that he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as "˜Neron Kesar.
 
I said:"Now the number 0.666 is approximately 2/3 of ONE whole,one short of all three thirds.The only way we can count the number of the beast, is as a fraction of a whole,or total number,SINCE WE ARE ONLY GIVEN ONE NUMBER..In this case, a fraction of the total ,irrespective of what number the total is.I consider the total as the total mass of humanity,2/3 of which are lost and 1/3 of which are saved.Forget about multiplying by one thousand ,THE FACT REMAINS THAT, TWO THIRDS,(OR 0.666)OF A WHOLE(1.00), IS TWO THIRDS.The number of the beast is 666, for it represents the total number of the lost ,Satans followers."

Notice the underlined words.Revelation is full of symbolism.The symbolism of 2/3,is the unsaved.You have ignored three examples from scripture, where we are told that 2/3 are the lost.We are not dealing with a mathematics textbook.

andreas.:candle:
 
Quote:***The fact remains that we have no biblical reason to relate the "two thirds" (literally something like "two parts") of Zech 13 to the "six hundred and sixty six" of Revelation.***

1.Two parts shall be cut off and die.Eternal death,eternal separation from God.That is clear is it not?
2.Who are Satans followers?Who make up his kingdom?Who are his servants?The lost,the unsaved,the reprobates,which make up 2/3 of the total or the whole.We are told the number of the beast is the number of man.Which man?The unsaved.The saved do not belong to Satan.They belong to Jesus, who bought them with his own blood..

Yea, there is biblical reason to connect the two.Zech 13 is clear enough.Let scripture interpret scripture.

andreas.:candle:
 
Quote:***thanks for making the point that the phrase is best interpreted as the number of man since it is the number of the beast.***

I made no such point.Man applies to any sinfull man,whether it applies to a one legged ,deaf,blind ,short,tall,ugly,beautifull,thin or fat man.A sinner is a sinner and all sinners behave like beasts.

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" 2 Peter 2:12

andreas.:candle:
 
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