Dennis1963
Puritan Board Freshman
Hello all, I have an important question, I don't know if I have actually thought it out enough to develop it into a comprehensible question but, here it is any way.
This question comes from the though and teaching faith is a gift.
First let me say, I believe Salvation is a gift, I believe a sinner is regenerated by the Holy Spirit before he can have faith unto salvation, since this lively faith does not exist in man since the fall. Since the fall man is not able to saving believe the gospel, he walks in darkness and cannot discern the things of the Spirit.
Which leads to me question....................
Concerning saving faith....
How is it defined?
Now I believe it is a fruit of regeneration, I believe through our mystical union with Christ, as being attached to the vine all good things flow from Christ, who is our Head, to us.
1) Now is faith a (mystical) gift?.... as in, "here this is faith I give unto you so you can believe in Me?"
Or,
2) Through regeneration, the Holy Spirit opens our eyes, gives us a new heart, turns the lights on so to speak,...therefore, we can now believe, because we can actually see the gospel, we become truly enlightened, irresistibly? So, in this sense, our eyes are open "so we (do) exorcize our faith,(so to speak) through belief," to what we now see as truth, the gospel.
Please correct me where I am wrong but I tend to believe the latter, #2.
---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 PM ----------
Continued:
Concerning #2, we could not believe before regeneration because we were in darkness, totally depraved. So, the faith we did have could not be used effectively towards something we could not see or even understand or know.
But through regeneration (being enlightened irresistible) we now are able to believe because we are now not only shown but placed (through regeneration) smack dab, right in the middle of it, so to speak.
Am I making sense? I honestly, sincerely and humbly invite all of you for correction or encouragement.
Also, it is of the utmost importance (as I am sure you all agree) to present scripture. I will present one for now. Eph 2:8-9.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I understand this to be; "grace holds the place of principle causes," and faith is the means on man's side to receive and apply unto himself by feling and enjoying that salvation which is presented unto us in Christ. It is not of any merit or work of ourselves, all we have to do is believe, and "this area on man is made alive through regeneration in order to do so."
I eagerly await your replies.
Thanks and God bless.
---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------
This verse makes a good connection: 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7.
This passage teaches we bring nothing to the table for salvation, it is prevented by grace, without any respect for our works. It would also seem, the washing of regeneration (in a baptism sense)...by an inward operation of the Holy Spirit, is applying the blood of Christ for expiation of sin to our souls, by this are we made a new creation is righteousness. Being justified by His grace would leave us blameless, and guilt free. However, this leaves me a bit confused, almost as if there is a two part of justification. This being the first, then, man believing being a second part, but that don't make sense.
Perhaps this is a (profound) summary of the whole salvation process, where Paul just leaves out the believers faith part, which should be considered in it as far as the justification is concerned?
Thoughts?
---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------
This is a clip I found online concerning Jonathan Edwards thoughts on this: JONATHAN EDWARDS ON JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE: AN ANALYSIS
OF HIS THOUGHT AND DEFENSE OF HIS ORTHODOXY
He calls faith a uniting act that is done on the Christian’s part. In other words, the true Christian has an active part whereby he or she comes into the union, or
relationship, with Christ. However, once again, Edwards’s goal is not to discuss the origin of faith, but rather to say that “justifying faith is that by which the soul, which
before was separated and alienated from Christ, unites itself to him... (faith) is that by which the soul comes to Christ and receives him.”70 It would be easy here to accuse
Edwards of thinking that faith is some good deed that a human performs to earn salvation. But Edwards will not allow you to think that. For he also says, “God does not
give those who believe a union with or an interest in the Savior as a reward for faith, but only because faith is the soul’s active uniting with Christ, or is itself the very act of union on their part. At times, Edwards, argument appears very sophisticated and hard to follow.
He does not say where faith comes from. However, in other sermons, such as “A Divine and Supernatural Light,”71 he does show that humans must be acted upon by God to be awakened to regeneration and eternal life.
Thoughts?
This question comes from the though and teaching faith is a gift.
First let me say, I believe Salvation is a gift, I believe a sinner is regenerated by the Holy Spirit before he can have faith unto salvation, since this lively faith does not exist in man since the fall. Since the fall man is not able to saving believe the gospel, he walks in darkness and cannot discern the things of the Spirit.
Which leads to me question....................
Concerning saving faith....
How is it defined?
Now I believe it is a fruit of regeneration, I believe through our mystical union with Christ, as being attached to the vine all good things flow from Christ, who is our Head, to us.
1) Now is faith a (mystical) gift?.... as in, "here this is faith I give unto you so you can believe in Me?"
Or,
2) Through regeneration, the Holy Spirit opens our eyes, gives us a new heart, turns the lights on so to speak,...therefore, we can now believe, because we can actually see the gospel, we become truly enlightened, irresistibly? So, in this sense, our eyes are open "so we (do) exorcize our faith,(so to speak) through belief," to what we now see as truth, the gospel.
Please correct me where I am wrong but I tend to believe the latter, #2.
---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 PM ----------
Continued:
Concerning #2, we could not believe before regeneration because we were in darkness, totally depraved. So, the faith we did have could not be used effectively towards something we could not see or even understand or know.
But through regeneration (being enlightened irresistible) we now are able to believe because we are now not only shown but placed (through regeneration) smack dab, right in the middle of it, so to speak.
Am I making sense? I honestly, sincerely and humbly invite all of you for correction or encouragement.
Also, it is of the utmost importance (as I am sure you all agree) to present scripture. I will present one for now. Eph 2:8-9.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I understand this to be; "grace holds the place of principle causes," and faith is the means on man's side to receive and apply unto himself by feling and enjoying that salvation which is presented unto us in Christ. It is not of any merit or work of ourselves, all we have to do is believe, and "this area on man is made alive through regeneration in order to do so."
I eagerly await your replies.
Thanks and God bless.
---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------
This verse makes a good connection: 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7.
This passage teaches we bring nothing to the table for salvation, it is prevented by grace, without any respect for our works. It would also seem, the washing of regeneration (in a baptism sense)...by an inward operation of the Holy Spirit, is applying the blood of Christ for expiation of sin to our souls, by this are we made a new creation is righteousness. Being justified by His grace would leave us blameless, and guilt free. However, this leaves me a bit confused, almost as if there is a two part of justification. This being the first, then, man believing being a second part, but that don't make sense.
Perhaps this is a (profound) summary of the whole salvation process, where Paul just leaves out the believers faith part, which should be considered in it as far as the justification is concerned?
Thoughts?
---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------
This is a clip I found online concerning Jonathan Edwards thoughts on this: JONATHAN EDWARDS ON JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE: AN ANALYSIS
OF HIS THOUGHT AND DEFENSE OF HIS ORTHODOXY
He calls faith a uniting act that is done on the Christian’s part. In other words, the true Christian has an active part whereby he or she comes into the union, or
relationship, with Christ. However, once again, Edwards’s goal is not to discuss the origin of faith, but rather to say that “justifying faith is that by which the soul, which
before was separated and alienated from Christ, unites itself to him... (faith) is that by which the soul comes to Christ and receives him.”70 It would be easy here to accuse
Edwards of thinking that faith is some good deed that a human performs to earn salvation. But Edwards will not allow you to think that. For he also says, “God does not
give those who believe a union with or an interest in the Savior as a reward for faith, but only because faith is the soul’s active uniting with Christ, or is itself the very act of union on their part. At times, Edwards, argument appears very sophisticated and hard to follow.
He does not say where faith comes from. However, in other sermons, such as “A Divine and Supernatural Light,”71 he does show that humans must be acted upon by God to be awakened to regeneration and eternal life.
Thoughts?
