? About NASB vs ESV.

[etexas]

OK, as most of you know I am a King Jimmy Dude, BUT, yes I do use and read other Bibles. Now is it it just me here, but when I want a CT reference in English I am more often returning to the NASB (and yes Fred Greco, I know it has some Yoda English ), BUT overall, between the two, using a Hebrew/Greek reference, I find most of the time, the NASB is more accurate. Any thoughts?

 

[Richard King]

language of Yoda it has?

 

[etexas]

language of Yoda it has?

Hmmmmmm.......see let us.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I like the NASB for accuracy - the ESV for language.

 

[etexas]

I like the NASB for accuracy - the ESV for language.

I agree, the ESV has pleasing English, but, let us be honest, few read the NASB as a quick devotional, it is good for word studies, esp. as I noted if one is using Greek/Hebrew reference works along with it.

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

I agree, NASB for accuracy . . . given the critical text.

In spite of what others say, I have never found the NASB unduly awkward, cumbersome, or been bothered by any particular Yoda language. If some wording or syntax is forced a bit to better reflect the Greek, I'm all for it.

 

[etexas]

I agree, NASB for accuracy . . . given the critical text.

In spite of what others say, I have never found the NASB unduly awkward, cumbersome, or been bothered by any particular Yoda language. If some wording or syntax is forced a bit to better reflect the Greek, I'm all for it.

I agree with this as well, I have never really found the NASB that difficult to read. Most critics of it feel readability and accuracy are one and the same (see Better Bibles Blog , they feel the NLT is "accurate" because it is an easy read).

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I agree, NASB for accuracy . . . given the critical text.

In spite of what others say, I have never found the NASB unduly awkward, cumbersome, or been bothered by any particular Yoda language. If some wording or syntax is forced a bit to better reflect the Greek, I'm all for it.

 

[etexas]

To take it a step more, I think the Lockman folk did a nice job with the 95 update, there were some errors in the old footnotes which are corrected, and it reads more smoothly ( in my humble opinion), another plus is with the NASB Update it is available in paragraph form.

 

[JBaldwin]

I agree, NASB for accuracy . . . given the critical text.

In spite of what others say, I have never found the NASB unduly awkward, cumbersome, or been bothered by any particular Yoda language.

I have, but I think it's because I grew up with the KJV. I was so happy when the ESV came along, because the language flows better. Having said that I have a small NASB with my ESV so I can make a quick comparison.

 

[etexas]

I agree, NASB for accuracy . . . given the critical text.

In spite of what others say, I have never found the NASB unduly awkward, cumbersome, or been bothered by any particular Yoda language.

I have, but I think it's because I grew up with the KJV. I was so happy when the ESV came along, because the language flows better. Having said that I have a small NASB with my ESV so I can make a quick comparison.

Agreed, most of us would say the ESV has nice English, and it is an accurate CT based translation, the question is more about how "faithful" the respective translations are to the Hebrew and Greek texts, in this regard I would still say the NASB is "better" in this sense.

 

[DMcFadden]

The problem relates to what makes a "good" translation. If the goal is to mimic the underlying grammatical structures of the source, then the NASB is the best Bible. When you read the Greek, you can catch the preference for participles and identify (more often than in other translations) what exegetical decisions the translators are making. In the OT, you can feel the parataxis of the vaw stringing together sentence with sentence. I have always found the NASB to be the BEST snapshot of the underlying text.

If, however, the purpose of a translation is to communicate accurately and idiomatically into the receptor language, then other translations are "better." Translation is as much art as science. If you hear the word "Watergate" in English, it would make no sense to translate it into Spanish, German, or whatever as "water" + "gate." In fact, the wooden attempt at exactitude would mislead rather than illuminate. That is why the ESV, HCSB, etc. are counted as "good" translations. They strive to be as formally equivalent as possible without sacrificing meaning.

Dynamic equivalent translations, in my opinion, err on the side of paraphrasis to convey what the translators believe to be important. But, for those of us in the conservative wing of the church, we believe that this is God's holy book and that "getting the general sense of it" is not enough. We want to capture the literary allusions, references to the OT, and take with greatest seriousness and care with what the divine author intends for us to receive.

 

[servantofmosthigh]

I use the NASB for devotional and studying, and the ESV for preaching. But I wish the ESV versese were laid out like my NASB. The ESV verses run in the same paragraph, whereas the NASB verses are separate lines, making it easier to pickup where individual verses are at.

 

[larryjf]

There are a few things that i don't like in the NASB as far as accuracy goes that i think the ESV does better at...

Translating the OT "ach" (brother) as countryman - Lev 25:35 and others.

Translating the NT "porneia" (sexual immorality) as "immorality" without any reference to it being sexual in nature - 1 Cor 5:1 and others.

 

[etexas]

The problem relates to what makes a "good" translation. If the goal is to mimic the underlying grammatical structures of the source, then the NASB is the best Bible. When you read the Greek, you can catch the preference for participles and identify (more often than in other translations) what exegetical decisions the translators are making. In the OT, you can feel the parataxis of the vaw stringing together sentence with sentence. I have always found the NASB to be the BEST snapshot of the underlying text.

If, however, the purpose of a translation is to communicate accurately and idiomatically into the receptor language, then other translations are "better." Translation is as much art as science. If you hear the word "Watergate" in English, it would make no sense to translate it into Spanish, German, or whatever as "water" + "gate." In fact, the wooden attempt at exactitude would mislead rather than illuminate. That is why the ESV, HCSB, etc. are counted as "good" translations. They strive to be as formally equivalent as possible without sacrificing meaning.

Dynamic equivalent translations, in my opinion, err on the side of paraphrasis to convey what the translators believe to be important. But, for those of us in the conservative wing of the church, we believe that this is God's holy book and that "getting the general sense of it" is not enough. We want to capture the literary allusions, references to the OT, and take with greatest seriousness and care with what the divine author intends for us to receive.

Good points Brother, so by your definition I will clarify: I am referring to "good" in terms of fidelity to the underlying Hebrew and Greek. I was not that clear, thank you.

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

I use the NASB for devotional and studying, and the ESV for preaching. But I wish the ESV versese were laid out like my NASB. The ESV verses run in the same paragraph, whereas the NASB verses are separate lines, making it easier to pickup where individual verses are at.

I too have gotten used to the verse by verse layout of the old NASB. I prefer it now over the paragraph format.

I do not yet have an ESV to read. But I'm not really tempted to get one yet. I have the NKJV and the NASB as my primary english texts. I am a student of NT Greek but never made it very far with biblical Hebrew.

 

[etexas]

I too have gotten used to the verse by verse layout of the old NASB. I prefer it now over the paragraph format.

I do not yet have an ESV to read. But I'm not really tempted to get one yet. I have the NKJV and the NASB as my primary english texts. I am a student of NT Greek but never made it very far with biblical Hebrew.

It's OK! Your Greek is better than mine! I audited at a local seminary and was allowed to use parsing codes!

 

[Pilgrim]

etexas,

I doubt anyone will argue with you with the NASB's accuracy, unless it's that occasionally it's so accurate that it's not readily understandable. Other times I've noticed that they will render a word into idiomatic English when the literal translation is probably just about as understandable. But you can probably find similar examples in every translation. For a CT translation the NASB is the one I generally turn to as well.

I think that the NASB and NKJV are the two best modern translations for study purposes. Since I am using the KJV more now, I don't refer to the ESV that often. I don't even have a copy of it anymore since I got rid of mine during my recent move. But the Crossway does seem to keep coming out with interesting editions of the ESV.

If you like the NASB, don't worry about it even though the ESV is the hot new translation right now.

Nice to see you posting here again.

 

[etexas]

etexas,

I doubt anyone will argue with you with the NASB's accuracy, unless it's that occasionally it's so accurate that it's not readily understandable. Other times I've noticed that they will render a word into idiomatic English when the literal translation is probably just about as understandable. But you can probably find similar examples in every translation. For a CT translation the NASB is the one I generally turn to as well.

I think that the NASB and NKJV are the two best modern translations for study purposes. Since I am using the KJV more now, I don't refer to the ESV that often. I don't even have a copy of it anymore since I got rid of mine during my recent move. But the Crossway does seem to keep coming out with interesting editions of the ESV.

If you like the NASB, don't worry about it even though the ESV is the hot new translation right now.

Nice to see you posting here again.

Thank you Brother. As a King James man I would not say I am worried about the issue, as you noted, the ESV is the "hot" translation now, I was simply curious about how my PB Brethren felt about the what seems to be a marketplace struggle between these two literal CT based translations.

 

[Pilgrim]

etexas,

I doubt anyone will argue with you with the NASB's accuracy, unless it's that occasionally it's so accurate that it's not readily understandable. Other times I've noticed that they will render a word into idiomatic English when the literal translation is probably just about as understandable. But you can probably find similar examples in every translation. For a CT translation the NASB is the one I generally turn to as well.

I think that the NASB and NKJV are the two best modern translations for study purposes. Since I am using the KJV more now, I don't refer to the ESV that often. I don't even have a copy of it anymore since I got rid of mine during my recent move. But the Crossway does seem to keep coming out with interesting editions of the ESV.

If you like the NASB, don't worry about it even though the ESV is the hot new translation right now.

Nice to see you posting here again.

Thank you Brother. As a King James man I would not say I am worried about the issue, as you noted, the ESV is the "hot" translation now, I was simply curious about how my PB Brethren felt about the what seems to be a marketplace struggle between these two literal CT based translations.

I can tell you this when it comes to marketplace, from what I've seen. Other than Lifeway (Southern Baptist Bookstore) you will be hard pressed to find a good selection of NASB's in retail stores today. Lifeway probably continues to carry a variety of NASB's because a lot of preachers shop there. Of course, unlike many other stores, Lifeway also does not sell the TNIV, which leaves more shelf space for the NASB and other versions. The NASB continues to hang around the bottom half of the CBA's top 10 bestselling translations and its primary constituency is probably pastors, seminary students and those who have used it in the past who are replacing their copy. Of course you also have those who will collect every version possible. At one time, when people who used CT translations were becoming serious about studying the Bible would put their NIV aside and get an NASB, but today it seems that the choice for many is the ESV instead. This is due to the ESV's marketing campaign (including online) and the fact that many do find it easier to read than the NASB and more literal than the NIV.

When it comes to marketplace, if a new translation has a good marketing push behind it, it will sell. When the full NASB came out in the 1970's I think it overtook the AV for a time, but was itself overtaken by the NIV. The Living Bible sold a lot of copies in the 1970's as well, as have the NLT and the Message more recently. The AV of course continues to sell in large numbers, even though it typically isn't consistently #1 anymore. The NKJV has always sold well too although I don't think it's ever consistently been #1 in sales.

 

[Pilgrim]

Here are the most recent rankings by the Christian Bookseller's Association.

Top 10 in dollar sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 New Living Translation Tyndale
5 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
6 Today’s New International Version Zondervan
7 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
8 English Standard Version Crossway
9 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
10 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers

Top 10 in Unit Sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 English Standard Version Crossway
5 New Living Translation Tyndale
6 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers
7 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
8 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
9 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
10 International Children’s Bible Thomas Nelson

 

[etexas]

Here are the most recent rankings by the Christian Bookseller's Association.

Top 10 in dollar sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 New Living Translation Tyndale
5 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
6 Today’s New International Version Zondervan
7 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
8 English Standard Version Crossway
9 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
10 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers

Top 10 in Unit Sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 English Standard Version Crossway
5 New Living Translation Tyndale
6 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers
7 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
8 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
9 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
10 International Children’s Bible Thomas Nelson

Man, how DOES the NIV still hang in there! Granted it is easy to read, and I used it myself after my Salvation, but I don't know how it seems to keep topping out!

 

[Pilgrim]

Here are the most recent rankings by the Christian Bookseller's Association.

Top 10 in dollar sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 New Living Translation Tyndale
5 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
6 Today’s New International Version Zondervan
7 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
8 English Standard Version Crossway
9 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
10 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers

Top 10 in Unit Sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 English Standard Version Crossway
5 New Living Translation Tyndale
6 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers
7 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
8 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
9 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
10 International Children’s Bible Thomas Nelson

Man, how DOES the NIV still hang in there! Granted it is easy to read, and I used it myself after my Salvation, but I don't know how it seems to keep topping out!

I think in part it is because it is what a lot of people are familiar with and also because there are so many study bibles available in the NIV, and Zondervan seems to be continuing to issue new ones using the NIV. The NIV Study Bible continues to be a big seller, and 4 out of the top 6 specialty/study Bibles ranked by CBA are NIV. http://www.cbaonline.org/nm/documents/BSLs/Bibles.pdf

I guess it could be worse. I've been to large churches, both Baptist and charismatic, where the preacher used the NLT.

 

[etexas]

Here are the most recent rankings by the Christian Bookseller's Association.

Top 10 in dollar sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 New Living Translation Tyndale
5 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
6 Today’s New International Version Zondervan
7 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
8 English Standard Version Crossway
9 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
10 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers

Top 10 in Unit Sales:

1 New International Version various publishers
2 King James Version various publishers
3 New King James Version various publishers
4 English Standard Version Crossway
5 New Living Translation Tyndale
6 Reina Valera 1960 (Spanish) various publishers
7 Holman Christian Standard Bible B&H Publishing Group
8 The Message Eugene Peterson, NavPress
9 New American Standard Bible update various publishers
10 International Children’s Bible Thomas Nelson

Man, how DOES the NIV still hang in there! Granted it is easy to read, and I used it myself after my Salvation, but I don't know how it seems to keep topping out!

I think in part it is because it is what a lot of people are familiar with and also because there are so many study bibles available in the NIV, and Zondervan seems to be continuing to issue new ones using the NIV. The NIV Study Bible continues to be a big seller, and 4 out of the top 6 specialty/study Bibles ranked by CBA are NIV. http://www.cbaonline.org/nm/documents/BSLs/Bibles.pdf

I guess it could be worse. I've been to large churches, both Baptist and charismatic, where the preacher used the NLT.

Chuckle. I wonder how you bang out a sermon from the NLT! My wife reads one! Sigh! Well, I would rather her read that than not read any Bible.

 

[Pilgrim]

Man, how DOES the NIV still hang in there! Granted it is easy to read, and I used it myself after my Salvation, but I don't know how it seems to keep topping out!

I think in part it is because it is what a lot of people are familiar with and also because there are so many study bibles available in the NIV, and Zondervan seems to be continuing to issue new ones using the NIV. The NIV Study Bible continues to be a big seller, and 4 out of the top 6 specialty/study Bibles ranked by CBA are NIV. http://www.cbaonline.org/nm/documents/BSLs/Bibles.pdf

I guess it could be worse. I've been to large churches, both Baptist and charismatic, where the preacher used the NLT.

Chuckle. I wonder how you bang out a sermon from the NLT! My wife reads one! Sigh! Well, I would rather her read that than not read any Bible.

Well, brother, these are the types of churches where typically one or maybe two verses are read and then often either taken out of context or scarcely referred to during the sermon.

 

[bookslover]

Believe it or not, this year marks the 30th anniversary of the publication of the NIV (full Bible) in 1978.

I use the ESV (NASB when I got saved in 1980, because that was the translation being used in the [non-Reformed] church I was attending then). I recently purchased a NKJV by Thomas Nelson: hardback, two columns per page, each verse starts a new line - and only about $15.

 

[DMcFadden]

Man, how DOES the NIV still hang in there! Granted it is easy to read, and I used it myself after my Salvation, but I don't know how it seems to keep topping out!

in my opinion the very BEST study Bible is the Spirit of the Reformation which only comes in NIV. With that kind of packaging, it will keep selling well.

 

[etexas]

Believe it or not, this year marks the 30th anniversary of the publication of the NIV (full Bible) in 1978.

I use the ESV (NASB when I got saved in 1980, because that was the translation being used in the [non-Reformed] church I was attending then). I recently purchased a NKJV by Thomas Nelson: hardback, two columns per page, each verse starts a new line - and only about $15.

30 yeas is not so long in tearms of "classic translations", this is why so many people cried bunk when Zondervan did the TNIV, claiming amoung other things "changes in English over the past 30 years." Sorry, I was speaking English 30 years ago, I am not sure there have been too many vast changes.

 

[servantofmosthigh]

Another problem with the ESV (first problem I noted in my first comment about the verses running into each other in paragraph form, making it difficult to easily point out individual verses like the NASB) is that verses that are questionable in the manuscripts are left out of the main text body but are footnoted below (e.g. Mark 11:26). This is where the NIV committee, I believe, did a better job by bracketing those questionable verses but still kept them as part of the main text body.

 

[Robert Truelove]

Never caused problems for me in understanding did the NASV.

Prefer not ESV. Find it challenge to read I do. ESV language not clear. Prefer familiar language of the NASV I do.