Abraham Piper

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AnnaBanana

Puritan Board Freshman
Good Evening (or morning wherever you are in the world)

I tried searching for a thread on this, but didn’t come across one so I thought I’d start one up (if allowed).

Not sure how I missed this, but I’m guessing it’s because I stay away from the news for most of my day. Anyway, I was talking to a friend today and she was telling me about John Piper’s son, Abraham Piper, who is now a Tiktok sensation by making videos on there to discuss his deconstruction of religion- specially his loathing towards evangelical Christians. One article that I read, said that he- “calls out the hypocrisy and absurdity of evangelism.”
After watching these videos of him, and knowing his background, it made me question something: does the drill and practice approach towards children run them away from religion?

Granted, I am not a parent so I cannot speak from those shoes, BUT I have encountered numerous people (random and friends) who turned away from religion due to them not being able to have their own set views and experiences toward it when they were younger. It felt like they were told to memorize scripture (without being of age to fully understand and comprehend who God is) just because their parents directed them to do so. again, I am not a parent, so if I am offending anyone or feel like I know what I’m talking about, I apologize beforehand.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/04/12/us/abraham-piper-tiktok-exvangelical.amp.html?0p19G=2103
 
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Those are just symptoms, not causes. Apostasy is rarely sudden, and usually -when it seems- it's truly only in its announcement, and O! how many love to announce it. Apostasy is typically incremental, and we must all watch over our souls, searching out such vestiges of self-righteousness, lusts, and hypocrisies that we find, being humbled thereby, taking them to the LORD and crying out to Him for repentance, forgiveness, and subsequent cleansing that He has promised to accompany with the confession of sin. You may find this sermon informative:


As for the practicals mentioned above, it is every Christian parent's duty to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the LORD, which will include catechizing, scripture memorization, and daily family worship. None of these, however, should be mistaken for a successful turn-of-crank kind of Christian mill that turns out godly children. Rather, they are to point the children to Christ, with the LORD's blessing, in His due time, and at His good pleasure. We are the people of means (God's appointed ones), and He is the God of outcomes/results. The secret things belong to Him, but the things revealed are ours and our children's, namely to do all the words of His law.

The "deconstruction" thing going around amongst once professing Christian is overexposed and a bit faddish. This does not mean that a parent's carelessness, negligence, or miscarriage in some duty, or even -God forbid- abuse does not play a part, but a person's apostasy may never be laid at the feet of anyone other than their own heart's discontent.

P.S. - Outside of Jesus Christ, and the other two persons of the Godhead, none will ever -to use your words- fully understand and comprehend who God is.
 
My grandmother (the devout daughter of a Baptist preacher) used to say "Preacher's children. Devil's grandchildren."

Look at Francis Schaeffer; R.C. Sproul, Sr; Charles Stanley....
 
My grandmother (the devout daughter of a Baptist preacher) used to say "Preacher's children. Devil's grandchildren."

Look at Francis Schaeffer; R.C. Sproul, Sr; Charles Stanley....
In the first two cases only one of the children are famous for trouble. The others have lead quiet lives.
 
Charles Stanley...
Can anyone really be surprised with this one? I just listened to one of his "sermons" yesterday, as it was recommended to me on YouTube. Utter Christless garbage. Even by secular self-help standards, it’s just bad.
 
what is it about him that makes his sermons bad specially? Haven’t listen to him in a very long time.
It’s just self-help moralism. Ten steps to better finances. Eight principals for a happy life. Five things to remember when having a bad day at work. What makes it more offensive is the fact that the only time Christ is ever mentioned is when, at the end of his sermon, when he’s preached no Christ for half an hour, he’ll say (literally), “Oh, and by the way, if you don’t know Jesus, you need him for any of this to work, so pray this prayer.” That’s his gospel presentation.

Perhaps the sermon I watched isn’t indicative of his ministry as a whole. I surely hope not. But, either way, moralistic pastors and Christians beget less-than-stellar children a lot of the time, save for God’s restraining grace. The problem is only exacerbated when those children themselves become pastors (hence Andy Stanley).
 
It’s just self-help moralism. Ten steps to better finances. Eight principals for a happy life. Five things to remember when having a bad day at work. What makes it more offensive is the fact that the only time Christ is ever mentioned is when, at the end of his sermon, when he’s preached no Christ for half an hour, he’ll say (literally), “Oh, and by the way, if you don’t know Jesus, you need him for any of this to work, so pray this prayer.” That’s his gospel presentation.

Perhaps the sermon I watched isn’t indicative of his ministry as a whole. I surely hope not. But, either way, moralistic pastors and Christians beget less-than-stellar children a lot of the time, save for God’s restraining grace. The problem is only exacerbated when those children themselves become pastors (hence Andy Stanley).
Could you explain what you mean by moralistic pastors?
 
Could you explain what you mean by moralistic pastors?
Trent beat me to it. Al Mohler defines moralism as “the belief that the Gospel can be reduced to improvements in behavior.” I would just add that “moralism” is not to be confused with morality, just as “Pietism” is not to be confused with piety. In both cases, we ought to strive for the latter, while rejecting the former.
 
I have tried and tried to find some formula as to why some children of pastors and missionaries stay faithful and others go astray. I have seen some very rigid types drive their kids away, but for the most part I have failed to find any formula. I am still looking.
 
I have tried and tried to find some formula as to why some children of pastors and missionaries stay faithful and others go astray. I have seen some very rigid types drive their kids away, but for the most part I have failed to find any formula. I am still looking.
There probably isn’t really a formula to be found—at least not one that accounts for all the data. The fact is that there are some rock solid parents who do everything right and their children still go astray, and there are derelict parents whose children turn out to be little Spurgeons (cf. Ecc. 8:14). The wrench in our gears is the sovereign grace of God.
 
With regards to the OP, Joshua's post was spot on. The self-congratulatory, often intellectually vacuous "deconstruction" going on is nothing new under the sun. Abraham Piper isn't the first petulant, apostate man-child. He won't be the last.
 
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I have tried and tried to find some formula as to why some children of pastors and missionaries stay faithful and others go astray. I have seen some very rigid types drive their kids away, but for the most part I have failed to find any formula. I am still looking.
D.A. Carson has said the worst environment to raise a kid is with high spiritual pretentions and low spiritual performance. The best would be to raise one with low pretentions and high performance. I think there is some truth to that though different kids will view things very differently. I pray, if I ever have a wife, let alone a family, I can have a high enough spiritual performance to be a role model.
 
What happened with R. C's child? I only know of R. C. Jr
Convicted felon, user of the Ashley Madison scam affair site. Ran afoul of a couple of Presbyterian denominations. Started out ARP, tried to join the big tent PCA, but it wasn't big enough to take his views; went with the RPCGA, and was deposed by them for, among other things, paedocommunion. Was taken in by the Federal Visionists of CREC. Went to the micro-denomination of the Covenant Presbyterian Church. Then the Mennonite Federation of Evangelical Churches.

Not someone I'd sit under.

Fact checkers of PB- please flag any errors above, or anything missed.
 
D.A. Carson has said the worst environment to raise a kid is with high spiritual pretentions and low spiritual performance. The best would be to raise one with low pretentions and high performance. I think there is some truth to that though different kids will view things very differently. I pray, if I ever have a wife, let alone a family, I can have a high enough spiritual performance to be a role model.
Can you please explain what pretentions are in this context? Thanks!
 
Look at Samuels children:
When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. Yet his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted justice.
(1Sa 8:1-3)
 
Convicted felon, user of the Ashley Madison scam affair site. Ran afoul of a couple of Presbyterian denominations. Started out ARP, tried to join the big tent PCA, but it wasn't big enough to take his views; went with the RPCGA, and was deposed by them for, among other things, paedocommunion. Was taken in by the Federal Visionists of CREC. Went to the micro-denomination of the Covenant Presbyterian Church. Then the Mennonite Federation of Evangelical Churches.

Not someone I'd sit under.

Fact checkers of PB- please flag any errors above, or anything missed.

At least one of his failures appears to have come from his theological aberrations and tendency toward legalism: he felt he needed to honor his late wife's memory by remaining celibate afterward. It was a noble gesture, but not something mandated by Scripture, and apparently not one in keeping with his own constitution. Few are called to be eunuchs for the kingdom, and it is better to marry than to burn.

I mention this because it was a personally applicable warning that I took to heart some years back as instructive of the dangers of turning extra-biblical suggestions into requirements.

Commenting on the larger issue: Abraham Piper is just a part of the larger "coming out" culture. We live in an Isaiah 5:20 society where evil is celebrated as good, and it's seen as fashionably edgy to take pot shots at the big bad oppressor of orthodox Christianity. Whether it's an NFL player coming out as gay, or famed actors and soccer players announcing a gender transition, or simply a conservative courtship guru or the son of a renowned Christian pastor... it's all the same thing. Taking the "risky" step of rejecting an increasingly small and disfavored minority religion for the favor of political and cultural institutions with vast financial and social power, trotting out the same tired tropes again and again.
 
Convicted felon, user of the Ashley Madison scam affair site. Ran afoul of a couple of Presbyterian denominations. Started out ARP, tried to join the big tent PCA, but it wasn't big enough to take his views; went with the RPCGA, and was deposed by them for, among other things, paedocommunion. Was taken in by the Federal Visionists of CREC. Went to the micro-denomination of the Covenant Presbyterian Church. Then the Mennonite Federation of Evangelical Churches.

Not someone I'd sit under.

Fact checkers of PB- please flag any errors above, or anything missed.

Yes. The audacity of this man starting a ministry based on character! He needs to sit in the pew and hear the Word of God, not teach it or preach it. Straight from the Wikipedia page which documents the issues with Jr. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Sproul_Jr.

Church history and deposition from office:
Sproul was first ordained in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP). After a failed attempt to transfer to the Presbyterian Church in America,[15] he was ordained in the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (RPCGA) in 2000.​
In January 2006, Sproul and the Session of Saint Peter Presbyterian Church (SPPC), its governing body, were deposed from office by the RPCGA under charges including "abuse of authority in an inexcusable manner" against several families, alleged illegal use of the ARP's tax identification number, planting a church without authority, and practicing infant communion.[16][17] The SPPC Session issued a letter of apology and asked to be released from general membership in the RPCGA, and the denomination granted their request. SPPC requested pastoral oversight from the CREC, which accepted the congregation as a full member in October 2007.[18] The Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) examined the case and accepted Sproul as an ordained minister in good standing in 2006. In 2010 Sproul transferred his ordination to the denomination Covenant Presbyterian Church (CPC).[19] On March 27, 2019, Sproul announced, "I am a member in good standing at Pine Hills Church here in Fort Wayne. It is a part of the Federation of Evangelical Churches."[20] The FEC is an Anabaptist denomination of Amish Mennonite origin. July 2, 2019, Sproul became ordained through Logos Ministries of Florida and formed the business entity Dunamis Fellowship. February 14, 2021, Sproul planted his newest church, Sovereign Grace Fellowship in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Sproul announced April 3, 2021, he would launch the Shepherd’s College, August 30, 2021, as a pastors college for training and mentoring men nationally and internationally.​


Personal moral failings:
In August 2015, Sproul wrote in his personal blog that he had briefly visited the Ashley Madison website in 2014.[4] As a result, Ligonier Ministries suspended him until July 2016.[5] Sproul had addressed the recently announced Ashley Madison data breach in a July 22, 2015, blog entry that highlighted "the biblical truth that our sins will find us out", but without the acknowledgment made in August.[6]
...​
On November 29, 2016, RC Sproul Jr was arrested in Fort Wayne, Indiana, for drunken driving with two of his minor children in the car. He posted a $5,000 bond and was free under a "monitored conditional release."[8][9] On June 2, 2017, Sproul filed a plea agreement in which he pled guilty to one felony count, 9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. He was sentenced to a prison term of 1 year 183 days. Under the terms of the plea agreement his prison sentence was suspended and he was remanded to 1 year supervised probation.[10]
 
Those in rebellion will come up with any excuse.

Agreed. Imagine standing before a holy God with all your sins laid bare before Him and you say "well my dad made me memorize bible verses when I didnt want to so gimme a pass". I weep for Abraham Piper's soul.
 
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