Advice needed; Attending Catholic mass

[Rilke_and_Roses]

Hello,
I am very new here, so I do apologise if I break any rules or if my English is objectionable (not my first, or second, language!)
A very dear friend of mine has invited me to sing in her choir for Catholic mass next week after I tagged along for practise the past few months.
Their choir (as is common in Germany) has quite a few non-catholics in it and her church is very welcoming of outsiders.
I REALLY like singing and they are extremely good and my church is very lukewarm when it comes to songs, so I've been starved for opportunity when it comes to singing religious music. (I am a part of two secular choirs, but it's just not the same and they understandably mostly sing non-christian stuff.)

Also, I am quite curious. We are constantly trying to convert each other and she has attended one of my services, so it seems a bit cowardly that I don't see what it is like at least once. I know the truth, so one mass is not going to sway me, anyway.

I would have to omit my going to my parents (I still live with them), because they'd likely make a humongous fuss about it. We have a complicated relationship and it seems as if they always assume the worst of me, so they'd probably view this as some sort of rebellious provocation. I told my other friend about my plans and she said that its also morally wrong, because in The Necessity of Reforming the Church (1543), Calvin described the Mass as a corruption of Christ's Supper and objected to participation in it. Also, she says my presence would mean I would be worshipping false idols. But she's currently creepily obsessed with Calvin, so I can't take her that seriously. It's not as if I am going to get up for communion or start to idolise the Pope!

There's no one else I can reasonably talk to about this. I would be thankful for any advice!

 

[Ploutos]

Guten Nachmittag, Katherina.

At the very least, you would be breaking the fifth and ninth commandments by dishonoring the wishes of your parents and concealing this from them. There are many other reasons not to go to this Catholic mass, but for the present time, I would strongly encourage you not to lie to your parents. I think you should abstain from going at the present time, and give yourself a little more time to think over the other implications of attending a Roman Catholic mass.

Moge Gott zu dir Weisheit geben.

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

Guten Nachmittag, Katherina.

At the very least, you would be breaking the fifth and ninth commandments by dishonoring the wishes of your parents and concealing this from them. There are many other reasons not to go to this Catholic mass, but for the present time, I would strongly encourage you not to lie to your parents. I think you should abstain from going at the present time, and give yourself a little more time to think over the other implications of attending a Roman Catholic mass.

Moge Gott zu dir Weisheit geben.

Vielen Dank, I guess that is a pretty good point. Hm. Will have to ponder that, since my parents haven't exactly been shining beacons of faith for me to emulate lately. Still, I suppose I will have to tell them if I do choose to go, out of principle.
Lovely German, by the way : )

 

[Dkshotwell]

The mass is unholy and profane, stay far away.

 

[Edward]

I would recommend against it. You wouldn't just be attending, you would be participating.

I have attended a few masses over the years, most recently a dozen or so years ago, and in that one, spent most of the service praying that the Lord would work in the heart of the presiding bishop, the numerous priests and deacons participating, and the audience. All-in-all, the experience was educational and showed me that they have not changed much since Luther's day (it seemed like close to an hour was spent praying to various saints).

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

The mass is unholy and profane, stay far away.

Well, that sounds ominous.

 

[Ploutos]

Vielen Dank, I guess that is a pretty good point. Hm. Will have to ponder that, since my parents haven't exactly been shining beacons of faith for me to emulate lately. Still, I suppose I will have to tell them if I do choose to go, out of principle.
Lovely German, by the way : )

Danke schoen. Ich habe fur ein Jahr im Universitaet studieren - aber, nicht mehr Zeit fur ein wunderbar Sprache!

I and many others can relate well to difficult parental circumstances. Just remember that your parents will answer to the Lord for their deeds, and you will answer to him for your deeds. Whatever they may have done, the Lord will ask you how you have honored the fifth commandment in good times and bad.

For that reason alone, I don't think you should go - but there are many other reasons. Truth and falsehood are not on an equal footing. I would take a Muslim to church with me but I don't think I would go to a mosque in return, at least not without serious consideration or for some specific purpose of studying a false religion. My religion is the true one and the others are not, and that may be a hard thing to say but it is the truth. For me another reason not to go is the dishonor done to the Lord during the Eucharistic part of the service.

I am not questioning your commitment to your faith, because I don't know you, but I would also encourage you to take some time to think through how grounded you really are in your faith. I suppose some apologetic argument could be made for attending a mass, if you are very solid in your beliefs and think it would be valuable to attend a mass so that you can better explain the problems to your friend. Even there, however, I think you could be just as well served by reading ABOUT the Roman mass without having to attend it.

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

I would recommend against it. You wouldn't just be attending, you would be participating.

I have attended a few masses over the years, most recently a dozen or so years ago, and in that one, spent most of the service praying that the Lord would work in the heart of the presiding bishop, the numerous priests and deacons participating, and the audience. All-in-all, the experience was educational and showed me that they have not changed much since Luther's day (it seemed like close to an hour was spent praying to various saints).

Do you mean I would be participating because I would be singing in the choir? I guess I assumed it would be fine as long as I did not receive communion or speak out loud morally objectionable parts.

When you attended mass, how was it? I am also a bit nosy tbh! Ive never been anywhere but in a church aligned to my beliefs.

 

[Ploutos]

Do you mean I would be participating because I would be singing in the choir? I guess I assumed it would be fine as long as I did not receive communion or speak out loud morally objectionable parts.

When you attended mass, how was it? I am also a bit nosy tbh! Ive never been anywhere but in a church aligned to my beliefs.

A well-done Roman Catholic mass is extremely beautiful and aesthetically pleasing. In addition, it will have a great deal of Scripture reading.

I think, however, that these aspects of the mass make it more dangerous, because it appeals to our desire for Scripture and also to our senses. What, the mind asks, could possibly be wrong with a service so steeped in Scripture and so exquisitely beautiful? And indeed, in the history of mankind, there are few greater artistic achievements than some of the liturgical and musical developments of various branches of the Christian Church.

But underneath it, in this instance, is a very dangerous and insidious strain of false teaching, which those elements make more seductive and attractive.

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

Danke schoen. Ich habe fur ein Jahr im Universitaet studieren - aber, nicht mehr Zeit fur ein wunderbar Sprache!

I and many others can relate well to difficult parental circumstances. Just remember that your parents will answer to the Lord for their deeds, and you will answer to him for your deeds. Whatever they may have done, the Lord will ask you how you have honored the fifth commandment in good times and bad.

For that reason alone, I don't think you should go - but there are many other reasons. Truth and falsehood are not on an equal footing. I would take a Muslim to church with me but I don't think I would go to a mosque in return, at least not without serious consideration or for some specific purpose of studying a false religion. My religion is the true one and the others are not, and that may be a hard thing to say but it is the truth. For me another reason not to go is the dishonor done to the Lord during the Eucharistic part of the service.

I am not questioning your commitment to your faith, because I don't know you, but I would also encourage you to take some time to think through how grounded you really are in your faith. I suppose some apologetic argument could be made for attending a mass, if you are very solid in your beliefs and think it would be valuable to attend a mass so that you can better explain the problems to your friend. Even there, however, I think you could be just as well served by reading ABOUT the Roman mass without having to attend it.

Yeah, I think those are all fair points. Hm, a part of me also wonders if my attendance is motivated by a desire to understand my friend. I find Catholicism fascinating from a purely historical perspective, but I just do not understand why she is so devoted to it. And she is lovely, so I just really want her to change her views.

Maybe that motivation is in itself dangerous, like all those stories about detectives who try to understand a murder case until they themselves are ensnared by it. Maybe attending would be unwise until I am a bit older and have read more about the divergences between my faith and hers. Do you know of any books I could read instead? I've read the shape of the Liturgy, Given for you and some Cyril of Jerusalem. Also Ratzinger, my friends favourite pope.

 

[Edward]

When you attended mass, how was it?

When I took my mother-in-law to the Altenberger Dom I didn't know enough German to really follow along, so boring. It was winter, there wasn't any heat, so my main memory was shivering.

When I went to the one at the local Cathedral, my supervisor at work was getting ordained as a Deacon. The service was long (including the prayers to the saints mentioned above), and even my Catholic co-workers complained about the service being boring and long. When I wrote earlier, I forgot about a third one - funeral mass for a former co-worker I had worked closely with. It was during the lunch hour so the folks who had still been working with her could attend. It was short and efficient, not notably different from a normal memorial service.

Do you mean I would be participating because I would be singing in the choir?

Yes. I'd draw a distinction between sitting in a pew for educational purposes (although I'm not going to get offended if my brothers and sisters on the board call me out for doing that), and participating in the service.

I suppose you know, but if you do attend, when going forward to mass, you should cross your arms across your chest to signal you won't be taking communion. The priest or deacon may offer you a blessing; I silently prayed for him while he was doing so.
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so I just really want her to change her views.

Pray.

Also Ratzinger, my friends favourite pope.

Perhaps the last real Roman Catholic pope. My brother-in-laws wife' father was a friend of his before he became Pope.

 

[py3ak]

It sounds like there are two draws here: one is the desire to share the Gospel with your friend, and the other is the love of singing. With regard to the second one, perhaps you've already thought of this, but since you're located in Stuttgart there are a number of choirs that perform religious music in concert. Have you looked into participating into one of these or a similar option?
Stuttgarter Oratorienchor
Gächinger Kantorei
Paulus-Chor Stuttgart

 

[Ed Walsh]

Yeah, I think those are all fair points. Hm, a part of me also wonders if my attendance is motivated by a desire to understand my friend. I find Catholicism fascinating from a purely historical perspective, but I just do not understand why she is so devoted to it. And she is lovely, so I just really want her to change her views.

Hi Katherina,

On another subject, I think your English is better than you made it out to be. You're communicating just fine.

Okay back to the subject at hand. I've read everything so far, and I agree with the bulk of what they have been saying.

Ed

 

[De Jager]

Dear sister,

It is admirable that you desire to use your voice to glorify God, and that you wish to bring your friend to see the truth. With that said, participating in a Roman Catholic mass is not a proper way to do either. The reformers were consistent on this, that the mass is idolatry. Even if you did not partake, you are still putting yourself in a compromised position. Roman Catholicism has all the outward appearances of Christianity but it is not the true faith. My advice to you, is do not do this.

Best Regards,
Izaak

 

[Ploutos]

Katherina,

You don't HAVE to go to a Catholic mass to understand your friend or her beliefs. You can simply talk to her. Explain that your conscience bothers you about what you believe to be the errors of the Catholic church, that you'd need to think that through some more, and that in the meantime you'd love to talk with her about what the draw is. Of course, given that you two are already trying to convert each other, you may already be doing that.

For understanding modern-day Catholic theology in broad brush strokes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is probably your best bet. I also recently read a book by Robert A. Sungenis called "Not By Scripture Alone" - 700 pages devoted to Catholic reasoning on why something more than Scripture is needed. I've taken extensive notes on this book and could address at least some of the points it makes.

But the best thing that you should do is 1) know your Bible. Have you read the entire Bible through, multiple times? There's no substitute for this from either an academic or spiritual point of view. 2) Know your Reformed doctrinal standards. Read through the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Second Helvetic Confession, the Westminster Confession of Faith. Roman Catholicism is a system, and one that's well thought-out, elaborate, and nuanced. It has answers to most of the questions you would think of to ask - bad answers, deceptive answers, but answers none the less. It deceptively offers certainty and assurance to those it attempts to convert. But if you understand Reformed theology - not just as a few talking points or as a few Bible texts, but as a comprehensive theological system that takes the entire breadth of Scriptural teaching into account - you will be much less easily swayed by the overwrought and bloated truth claims of the Roman Catholic church. Ephesians 4:13-14 comes to mind: "until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes."

Beyond that, I would recommend the following books:
Justification By Faith Alone - R.C. Sproul
The Roman Catholic Controversy - James White
Roman Catholic Theology and Practice - Gregg Allison
25 Questions for Roman Catholics - Adam Kuehner

Also, anything published by Leonard di Chirico (he has a blog).

These books will give a fair and even-handed treatment of, and response to, the falsehoods and dangers of Roman Catholic doctrine. But they will be most helpful if you already know what the Bible teaches and you already understand Reformed theology as a system - a comprehensive Biblically faithful system for explaining the doctrines of the Christian faith.

By the way, I have been to many Catholic masses in my lifetime. I have also participated in many - I was a part-time staff member at one Roman church and participated in services at several others. I was a lot younger then (and not a believer at all for at least part of that time period). At the present time, I do not believe I could sit through a Roman Catholic mass for any ordinary reason I could think of. It's an open question whether I would even go into a Roman Catholic church - this is something I think about because I debate whether it would be wise to take my children to see the inside of a church for educational purposes. At any rate, I've seen a lot of masses. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't be convinced that I needed to see all of them. I'm not convinced that you need to either.

 

[philomath]

Welcome to PuritanBoard Katherina!

Before I share some of my thoughts and questions, here is a recent post that you should take a look at, it has many helpful resouces that are related to this topic. In general, I would recommend that you not attend mass with your friend. I agree with much of what has already been said.

Some things to consider from your listed confessional standard and another reformed standard as to why:

From The London Baptist Confession of Faith:
"the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, injurious to Christ's own sacrifice the alone propitiation for all the sins of the elect."

From The Heidelberg Catechism:
"80. What difference is there between the Lord’s Supper and the Popish Mass?
The Lord’s Supper testifies to us, that we have full forgiveness of all our sins by the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which he himself once accomplished on the cross; and that by the Holy Spirit we are ingrafted into Christ, who, with his true body, is now in heaven at the right hand of the Father, and is there to be worshipped. But the Mass teaches, that the living and the dead do not have forgiveness of sins through the sufferings of Christ, unless Christ is still daily offered for them by the priests, and that Christ is bodily under the form of bread and wine, and is therefore to be worshipped in them. And thus the Mass at bottom is nothing else than a denial of the one sacrifice and passion of Jesus Christ, and an accursed idolatry."

my church is very lukewarm when it comes to songs, so I've been starved for opportunity when it comes to singing religious music.

What are some ways in which your church is lukewarm when it comes to songs?

Also, I am quite curious. We are constantly trying to convert each other and she has attended one of my services, so it seems a bit cowardly that I don't see what it is like at least once. I know the truth, so one mass is not going to sway me, anyway.

It would not be cowardly to not go to a mass. Let me use a differerent example with similar logic: "I have a friend who does narcotics and wants me to try them out. I want my friend to not do narcotics. My friend decided to not do them for a day. It seems a bit cowardly for me to not try narcotics at least once since my friend decided to not do them for a day."

Also, if we know the truth, but participate in a system of lies, that would not be honoring to God. I think being part of a choir at a mass would be participating since it is part of their worship. It'd be like saying "I agree with this."

I would have to omit my going to my parents (I still live with them), because they'd likely make a humongous fuss about it. We have a complicated relationship and it seems as if they always assume the worst of me, so they'd probably view this as some sort of rebellious provocation.

This would be dishonest. I can certainly understand complicated relationships with parents. Still, we are to honor them and be honest with them regardless of their faults. It is God's command to us and He does not say: "honor your mother and father only if you have a good relationship with them and they're excellent examples of faith." Another thing to consider is we show great honor to God by honoring our parents even when they aren't easy to honor!

There's no one else I can reasonably talk to about this.

Could you elaborate on this and what you mean by the word reasonably? Do you not have any pastor or older experienced people in your church that you can talk to about this? I ask because not having a pastor or trusted experienced Christian near you is a troubling situation. Anyway, PuritanBoard is a great place to get answers to questions!

attending would be unwise until I am a bit older and have read more about the divergences between my faith and hers

This is my thought. There are many people on PB who share their experiences being in that system. I've shared some of my own (not in-depth), but there are others who are far more experienced. The post I linked up at the top should be helpful and a good place to start!

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

Welcome to PuritanBoard Katherina!

Before I share some of my thoughts and questions, here is a recent post that you should take a look at, it has many helpful resouces that are related to this topic. In general, I would recommend that you not attend mass with your friend. I agree with much of what has already been said.

Some things to consider from your listed confessional standard and another reformed standard as to why:

From The London Baptist Confession of Faith:
"the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, injurious to Christ's own sacrifice the alone propitiation for all the sins of the elect."

From The Heidelberg Catechism:
"80. What difference is there between the Lord’s Supper and the Popish Mass?
The Lord’s Supper testifies to us, that we have full forgiveness of all our sins by the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which he himself once accomplished on the cross; and that by the Holy Spirit we are ingrafted into Christ, who, with his true body, is now in heaven at the right hand of the Father, and is there to be worshipped. But the Mass teaches, that the living and the dead do not have forgiveness of sins through the sufferings of Christ, unless Christ is still daily offered for them by the priests, and that Christ is bodily under the form of bread and wine, and is therefore to be worshipped in them. And thus the Mass at bottom is nothing else than a denial of the one sacrifice and passion of Jesus Christ, and an accursed idolatry."


What are some ways in which your church is lukewarm when it comes to songs?


It would not be cowardly to not go to a mass. Let me use a differerent example with similar logic: "I have a friend who does narcotics and wants me to try them out. I want my friend to not do narcotics. My friend decided to not do them for a day. It seems a bit cowardly for me to not try narcotics at least once since my friend decided to not do them for a day."

Also, if we know the truth, but participate in a system of lies, that would not be honoring to God. I think being part of a choir at a mass would be participating since it is part of their worship. It'd be like saying "I agree with this."


This would be dishonest. I can certainly understand complicated relationships with parents. Still, we are to honor them and be honest with them regardless of their faults. It is God's command to us and He does not say: "honor your mother and father only if you have a good relationship with them and they're excellent examples of faith." Another thing to consider is we show great honor to God by honoring our parents even when they aren't easy to honor!


Could you elaborate on this and what you mean by the word reasonably? Do you not have any pastor or older experienced people in your church that you can talk to about this? I ask because not having a pastor or trusted experienced Christian near you is a troubling situation. Anyway, PuritanBoard is a great place to get answers to questions!


This is my thought. There are many people on PB who share their experiences being in that system. I've shared some of my own (not in-depth), but there are others who are far more experienced. The post I linked up at the top should be helpful and a good place to start!

This is enormously helpful, thank you! The post has a lot of sources, and I definitely have something to read for the summer.
I apologise, I did not mean to whine about my choir or my relationship with my parents.

We do sing in church, but the church choir is old and very one-note. When you are part of a great choir, you sing about God. And you are no longer you, but only a vessel for whatever overflowing thing is passing through you, and the sound is both yours and not yours because you are among everyones voices intermingling, part of something that can sail right past your mind and shipwreck your soul. When you are in a mediocre choir, you stare at the woman waving her hands about in front of you and wonder what you'll have for lunch.

By "reasonably" I did not mean to imply that I have no one at all to talk to. If I had a serious, very grave, question or concern about my faith, I could technically go to the pastor. But figures of authority intimidate me, and it seemed somewhat silly to approach anyone senior with my question. Approaching the youth pastors/the people who run teenage and young adult events would have been my instinctive reaction. But they tend to talk; the last time I asked for advice, my parents knew the next day. (sigh) I just needed some theological input (not parental intervention), so the anonymous nature of this forum has been helpful and people took me somewhat seriously, which is nice.

Unrelated, love the Caspar David Friedrich profile picture!

 

[SolaScriptura]

I would counsel you strongly against attending in order to participate in the choir.

But attending a Catholic service in order to spectate is fine, as long as you’re observing and not participating.

You say you still live at home…. How old are you?

BTW - I see you’re from Stuttgart… that’s where I was stationed many years ago! Loved it. I pastored the chapel congregation on Robinson Barracks.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Do not attend such idolatry under any circumstances, as to do so is to countenance by your presence Rome's blasphemous re-sacrifice of Christ in the Mass. Even in hard cases such as weddings and funerals, you are well advised to flee from Rome's idolatrous worship. Attendance at a Mass, of all things, is not harmless - it is spiritual adultery. I have known of people who went to Masses because they "just wanted to learn more" and ended up converting to Popery. Their attendance in the first place was the gateway drug that led to them being seduced by the Mother of all Harlots.

 

[philomath]

This is enormously helpful, thank you! The post has a lot of sources, and I definitely have something to read for the summer.

Glad I could help!

We do sing in church, but the church choir is old and very one-note. When you are part of a great choir, you sing about God. And you are no longer you, but only a vessel for whatever overflowing thing is passing through you, and the sound is both yours and not yours because you are among everyones voices intermingling, part of something that can sail right past your mind and shipwreck your soul. When you are in a mediocre choir, you stare at the woman waving her hands about in front of you and wonder what you'll have for lunch.

I understand what you mean and your love of singing in a choir. I was in a choir for years when I was a bit younger and absolutely loved it. It continues to be one of my favorite genres of music. Being able to sing in a group of people and being part of a whole to create something greater is a beautiful experience. Would it be accurate to say that getting bored with your own choir leads you to want something more? There are a few things I want to note:

People can sing about God in a great choir, but being great/skilled, or even singing about God does not mean that a choir offers honoring worship to God. An example from the United States: we have the Mormon cult in our country who are renowned for their choir. Are they skilled singers? Sure. But they are heretics and their "worship" is not acceptable to God. Also, we must remember that just because something is beautiful and makes us feel good does not make it automatically true and right. Music is no different. Music is a powerful thing and can heavily influence our thoughts and emotions, for good or bad. There are some incredibly moving songs (as far as the music goes) that are also filled with lies in the lyrics.

I mention this since we need to be able to differentiate between our music preferences, and actual honoring worship of God. Overall, our worship of God is an incredibly serious matter and He defines how He is to be worshiped, what's important in worship, and what is not.

Singing with a less-skilled group of singers that are Biblically sound and faithful Christians is better than singing with a skilled group of singers that are not. Perhaps you could work towards helping your congregation become more skilled at singing! As a personal illustration, I love congregational singing and singing the psalms. I also find that using certain instruments can be distracting and performative. My pastors asked me to help lead worship a few weeks ago, I let them know my thoughts, and I was able to choose what we sang with their approval. Also in general, if we notice something lacking, we just might be the people called to fill the gap!

Does your church sing congregationally as well as having a small choir?

By "reasonably" I did not mean to imply that I have no one at all to talk to. If I had a serious, very grave, question or concern about my faith, I could technically go to the pastor. But figures of authority intimidate me, and it seemed somewhat silly to approach anyone senior with my question. Approaching the youth pastors/the people who run teenage and young adult events would have been my instinctive reaction. But they tend to talk; the last time I asked for advice, my parents knew the next day. (sigh) I just needed some theological input (not parental intervention), so the anonymous nature of this forum has been helpful and people took me somewhat seriously, which is nice.

I see. Even though authority figures intimidate you, remember that pastors have an obligation to be pastors . If you don't mind me asking, how large of a church do you go to? Also, approaching older folks in the faith is invaluable, even if a question may seem silly!

Titus 2:2-8: "Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us."

Unrelated, love the Caspar David Friedrich profile picture!

Thank you! I've always liked it and I think it's a good portrayal of Sehnsucht.

I especially like C.S. Lewis on sehnsucht:

"These things—the beauty, the memory of our own past—are good images of what we really desire; but if they are mistaken for the thing itself they turn into dumb idols, breaking the hearts of their worshipers. For they are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited."

“If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."

Also unrelated, Is your username named after the Austrian poet Rainer Rilke? I haven't read his poetry yet, but i have seen his name!

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

Glad I could help!

I understand what you mean and your love of singing in a choir. I was in a choir for years when I was a bit younger and absolutely loved it. It continues to be one of my favorite genres of music. Being able to sing in a group of people and being part of a whole to create something greater is a beautiful experience. Would it be accurate to say that getting bored with your own choir leads you to want something more? There are a few things I want to note:

People can sing about God in a great choir, but being great/skilled, or even singing about God does not mean that a choir offers honoring worship to God. An example from the United States: we have the Mormon cult in our country who are renowned for their choir. Are they skilled singers? Sure. But they are heretics and their "worship" is not acceptable to God. Also, we must remember that just because something is beautiful and makes us feel good does not make it automatically true and right. Music is no different. Music is a powerful thing and can heavily influence our thoughts and emotions, for good or bad. There are some incredibly moving songs (as far as the music goes) that are also filled with lies in the lyrics.

I mention this since we need to be able to differentiate between our music preferences, and actual honoring worship of God. Overall, our worship of God is an incredibly serious matter and He defines how He is to be worshiped, what's important in worship, and what is not.

Singing with a less-skilled group of singers that are Biblically sound and faithful Christians is better than singing with a skilled group of singers that are not. Perhaps you could work towards helping your congregation become more skilled at singing! As a personal illustration, I love congregational singing and singing the psalms. I also find that using certain instruments can be distracting and performative. My pastors asked me to help lead worship a few weeks ago, I let them know my thoughts, and I was able to choose what we sang with their approval. Also in general, if we notice something lacking, we just might be the people called to fill the gap!

Does your church sing congregationally as well as having a small choir?

I see. Even though authority figures intimidate you, remember that pastors have an obligation to be pastors . If you don't mind me asking, how large of a church do you go to? Also, approaching older folks in the faith is invaluable, even if a question may seem silly!

Titus 2:2-8: "Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us."


Thank you! I've always liked it and I think it's a good portrayal of Sehnsucht.

I especially like C.S. Lewis on sehnsucht:

"These things—the beauty, the memory of our own past—are good images of what we really desire; but if they are mistaken for the thing itself they turn into dumb idols, breaking the hearts of their worshipers. For they are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never visited."

“If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."

Also unrelated, Is your username named after the Austrian poet Rainer Rilke? I haven't read his poetry yet, but i have seen his name!

I am glad someone else also likes choir music, it's viewed as somewhat "old-fashioned" amongst my friends, religious or not. In my church, we sing congregationally (which I like as is! I would not expect everyone in my church to be perfect singers or anything. I don't really think that is the point of singing as a wider community, and the imperfections and the participation of less enthusiastic singers is really what gives the service its collective feeling) but there's also a choir that meets once a week and sings some songs during service. Being part of that choir is overall a bit of a drag. I suppose I could talk to someone and figure out if they take suggestions when it comes to song choices. And yes, a lot of music is wonderful to sing but rather heretic in content. I have an old record of choral music I found in Romania which is one of the loveliest things I've ever heard, but which contains some pretty pagan ideas.

Regarding your question, I am attending an English speaking baptist church in my town. It's sort of large, but because there are so few baptist churches in Germany and due to the churches international nature, the congregation is constantly in flux with expats moving away etc. I much preferred my previous church, to be entirely honest, but my parents were unhappy with it because it was very progressive (Rainbow flags and all that jazz, German protestant female preachers etc). We moved from Denmark back to Germany three years ago, and my parents have moved us around the country a few times since then. I am unsure how you practise religion over the pond, but I heard that churches in most parts of the United States tend to be much more traditional than over here. In Germany, my religion is very much in the minority, so communities tend to be very small and ever-changing.

And yes, I love Rilke!!!! I warmly recommend him, though it is very difficult to find good English translations of his work. His poetry in German has a deceptive simplicity which doesn't always translate well. He was, tragically, among the Catholics, who seem to produce a lot of great poetry and literature. (Is there a baptist equivalent to Brideshead revisited?)
I don't have time to pick out my favourites, but this poem immediately comes to mind (shoddy translation, sadly);

I live my life in widening circles
that reach out across the world.
I may not ever complete the last one,
but I give myself to it.

I circle around God, that primordial tower.
I have been circling for thousands of years,
and I still don't know: am I a falcon,
a storm, or a great song?

Oh and this one, from the perspective of Mary, Ive always found achingly human. I have a very fond memory of this one because my friend quoted it after we went to see the Oberammergau Passion Play. (we were all quite emotionally wrecked, haha).

If you had really wanted to be strong,
you would not have come from a woman's womb.
For messiahs are quarried from mountains
where the sturdy and strong comes from stone.

Are you not sorry to have despoiled your land
by such limitations? I am weak, don't you see;
I only had streams of milk or tears to offer,
and you were ever so much more than me.

 

[philomath]

I am glad someone else also likes choir music, it's viewed as somewhat "old-fashioned" amongst my friends, religious or not.

Yeah! It may be old-fashioned, but it'd beautiful and timeless. One of my favorite German tunes is Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten by Georg Neumark. I have a post on Choir music and psalms where people shared good suggestions for it. Recently I've enjoyed listening to choral arrangements of the Psalms on a Dutch album called Calvijn in De Gouden Eeuw along with some in English from Crown and Covenant.

I suppose I could talk to someone and figure out if they take suggestions when it comes to song choices.

I would.

I much preferred my previous church, to be entirely honest, but my parents were unhappy with it because it was very progressive

What aspects did you prefer about it compared to your current church?

I am unsure how you practise religion over the pond, but I heard that churches in most parts of the United States tend to be much more traditional than over here. In Germany, my religion is very much in the minority, so communities tend to be very small and ever-changing.

There are a wide swathe of churches in the United States, from more traditional ones to "modern" ones. Of course many people here on PuritanBoard from the United States will be a part of more traditional and Biblical churches. I remember having a very difficult time finding a solid congregation to join for The Lord's day when I visited Austria and Germany. I ended up finding a small international evangelical church that met in a borrowed sanctuary.

Is there a baptist equivalent to Brideshead revisited?

I've never read that, but I would check out the Literary Forum here on PB. Lots of great discussions on books and poetry.

And yes, I love Rilke!!!! I warmly recommend him, though it is very difficult to find good English translations of his work. His poetry in German has a deceptive simplicity which doesn't always translate well.

I'll have to look into his poetry. What do you like best about it?

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

Yeah! It may be old-fashioned, but it'd beautiful and timeless. One of my favorite German tunes is Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten by Georg Neumark. I have a post on Choir music and psalms where people shared good suggestions for it. Recently I've enjoyed listening to choral arrangements of the Psalms on a Dutch album called Calvijn in De Gouden Eeuw along with some in English from Crown and Covenant.

I would.

What aspects did you prefer about it compared to your current church?

There are a wide swathe of churches in the United States, from more traditional ones to "modern" ones. Of course many people here on PuritanBoard from the United States will be a part of more traditional and Biblical churches. I remember having a very difficult time finding a solid congregation to join for The Lord's day when I visited Austria and Germany. I ended up finding a small international evangelical church that met in a borrowed sanctuary.

I've never read that, but I would check out the Literary Forum here on PB. Lots of great discussions on books and poetry.

I'll have to look into his poetry. What do you like best about it?

Hm, my old church just had a larger community that came with it. A lot more events going on, more people my age. Obviously there were some pretty bad sermons, but when one is moving around a lot, your religion becomes slightly more separated from your church community. A lot of what I know really comes from bible study with my father and siblings. So it didn't seem that bad to me, at the time, that the church didn't really match all of what I previously learned to be true. Also, I was like fifteen when we started attending, so I wasn't exactly in charge of my religious education.

I remember that my father argued with the pastor occasionally, which I actually thought was quite interesting. I really like reading/observing discussions between non-believers and believers (I love Mere Christianity by C.S Lewis), so I did feel like I was actively learning something. I also like debate (actually president of my society, which is great fun! I think every girl ought to practice public speaking, helps with confidence), though it's probably not the point of church to attend because you enjoy watching your parent quarrel with the pastor after his sermons. Anyway, the pastor seemed to find it entertaining, but he viewed my parents as fire-and-brimstone-oddballs, so we left.

The United States are so interesting to me! Ive only ever visited when I was very young, and all I remember are HUGE trucks. I recently read Ronald Reagan's autobiography and I am working my way through the presidents. Any recommendations? (My current favourite is Garfield, I feel quite bad for him.)

When it comes to Rilke, I love him because he is human and sometimes gives his poetry a humorous or ironic twist, without coming across as sardonic or dismissive of the mystical. I am unsure how to express this properly, but I usually read two types of poets (well...three, I guess. I also read some for the express purpose of religious education. Isaac Watts, Philip Doddridge, Anne Steeles, Erdmann Neumeister etc.) There are those who are either historically or intellectually interesting, where you have to struggle, and ponder, and probably consult an English teacher or some sort of dictionary to understand the full complexity of the poetry (Rudyard Kipling, Stefan Zweig, Colette...) and then there are instinctual poets. Salvadore Quasimodo once said (paraphrased) that "Poetry is the expression of a feeling that the poet believes to be interior and unique which the reader recognizes as his own.” That is how I feel about Rilke. I read his poetry and he gives a name to the things I've felt, he extents gravitas to emotions that are often all over the place. It allows you to recognise something about yourself, whether it be a longing to create poetry or the underlying joy of faith despite your inability to fully understand it. His poetry is very mundane, a stark contrast to Schiller (who I also love as an instinctual poet, but whose prose is all flowery, all trumpets and huge gestures), almost more akin to Goethe in his ability to find something immense within the ordinary.

Also, this is very silly, but Rilke was not born a genius. His early poetry was...mediocre at best. He struggled to express himself and it took him a while to get the gist of things. It is reassuring. I recommend his "letters to a young poet", they really cheer me up when I am doubting myself. I hope I haven't gone on about this, haha, I do not want to derail the thread.

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

I would counsel you strongly against attending in order to participate in the choir.

But attending a Catholic service in order to spectate is fine, as long as you’re observing and not participating.

You say you still live at home…. How old are you?

BTW - I see you’re from Stuttgart… that’s where I was stationed many years ago! Loved it. I pastored the chapel congregation on Robinson Barracks.

I am eighteen! Currently taking a year off, heading off to Uni soon. (Yay, adulthood! It's an odd age to be while still living at home, because I am still being treated a bit like a toddler sometimes.)

A general update; I waited until my father was in a good mood to talk to him about it, and he said I may be allowed to go, but not alone. He wants it to be an educational experience, so he would probably tag along and we would dissect the service later. (He used to be a Catholic, so he gets very passionate about the topic.) And I would not be allowed to sing in the choir, or attend any further practises (he had initially permitted it, but I think my Mother is now worried about my friend converting me.) Something tells me my Mother will not be on board with this educational trip, but that's on him to decide.

And I am so glad you liked Stuttgart! What is it like to be stationed abroad? My great-grandmother used to tell me about how she would bum cigarettes off the soldiers in 49'.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I am eighteen! Currently taking a year off, heading off to Uni soon. (Yay, adulthood! It's an odd age to be while still living at home, because I am still being treated a bit like a toddler sometimes.)

A general update; I waited until my father was in a good mood to talk to him about it, and he said I may be allowed to go, but not alone. He wants it to be an educational experience, so he would probably tag along and we would dissect the service later. (He used to be a Catholic, so he gets very passionate about the topic.) And I would not be allowed to sing in the choir, or attend any further practises (he had initially permitted it, but I think my Mother is now worried about my friend converting me.) Something tells me my Mother will not be on board with this educational trip, but that's on him to decide.

And I am so glad you liked Stuttgart! What is it like to be stationed abroad? My great-grandmother used to tell me about how she would bum cigarettes off the soldiers in 49'.

I’m glad your father is willing to go with you and sees the value of it being an educational experience.

My own dad was in the Army and he too was stationed in Germany…. I spent several years in Hanau (near Frankfurt) back in the 80s…. And we were there when the Berlin Wall fell and reunification happened. It was amazing! So it was wonderful being able to go back as an adult with my own family.

My 19 year old son is stationed in Grafenwöhr as a medic. You should meet him! He’s nice!

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

My own dad was in the Army and he too was stationed in Germany…. I spent several years in Hanau (near Frankfurt) back in the 80s…. And we were there when the Berlin Wall fell and reunification happened. It was amazing! So it was wonderful being able to go back as an adult with my own family.

My 19 year old son is stationed in Grafenwöhr as a medic. You should meet him! He’s nice!

Oh, your son is in Bavaria! Wonderful part of Germany, still very traditional in certain areas. I hope he is enjoying his time abroad, it's a shame how US German relations have broken down politically lately. I really want to visit the US again sometime, but Visas are iffy currently.

Reunification and 1980s politics is one of my favourite history subjects to study! I recently wrote an essay about Helmut Kohl's foreign policy and to what extent Thatchers resignation aided US-German relations!!! It seems so remote to me today, so I keep forgetting people actually lived through it. Must have been really cool to witness as it happened.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Oh, your son is in Bavaria! Wonderful part of Germany, still very traditional in certain areas. I hope he is enjoying his time abroad, it's a shame how US German relations have broken down politically lately. I really want to visit the US again sometime, but Visas are iffy currently.

Reunification and 1980s politics is one of my favourite history subjects to study! I recently wrote an essay about Helmut Kohl's foreign policy and to what extent Thatchers resignation aided US-German relations!!! It seems so remote to me today, so I keep forgetting people actually lived through it. Must have been really cool to witness as it happened.

It was amazing to witness. Germany was more German back then. The Turks had just started flooding in but they hadn’t really re-shaped German society. Germany was very different when I showed back up in 2014.

 

[Rilke_and_Roses]

It was amazing to witness. Germany was more German back then. The Turks had just started flooding in but they hadn’t really re-shaped German society. Germany was very different when I showed back up in 2014.

Ah yes, there has been a lot of pessimism about preserving "German culture" amidst immigration and the challenges of globalism. But ultimately, as Bismarck said “Hounds follow those who feed them.”
Immigration is complicated, but I think we are slowly realising that our current modus operandi is not working anymore.
That being said, I wouldn't be too pessimistic about all Turkish people. As guest workers, they were enormously helpful in rebuilding the German economy in the 50s and 60s, and some of them have integrated very well. One would be surprised how many christian turks there are. And Istanbul is a marvel of a city. Ever visited?