Advice on transition to PCA Congregation

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I appreciate this OP and thread. I am in a similar situation so the suggestions have been very helpful. I have taken notes. I am returning to the PCA and the reformed faith with a wife and one teenage son who have very little exposure to this tradition. My son barely remembers our old PCA church now. We are transitioning to a 100-200 member church from a 5000+ member non-denominational mega-church.
Praise God! I’m thankful for the ways he has used this difficult transition/experience to shed light for others. I’ve definitely benefited from similar posts I’ve seen here or elsewhere.

“Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.” Proverbs‬ ‭11‬:‭14‬ ‭
 
Appreciate that Ryan. We are for sure guilty of this in the past, often times these teachings or positions are explicit but sometimes implicit as well which may be why it took so long for my wife and I to come to our own theological convictions independent of the institution we were apart of. I feel the urge to just dive in the deep end for the sake of that security and belonging, this is a great reminder that we don't want to make the same mistake twice, and vocalize our questions and/or concerns respectfully when appropriate. Have you shared on here what those practices or teachings were that you now identify as abusive or controlling? I could guess but it may be helpful to hear. Of course I understand if you dont.

Thanks!
Good wisdom, brother!
1. The pastor always kind of controlled the "thermostat" of the room with his personality. His way was the way everyone was expected to conform to and he had too much influence.
2. If someone wrestled with reformed doctrines they were considered "inferior", as if doubting reformed dogma was some major taboo.
3. Minor things were taught like they were the most important things.
4. I was one of the few that were serving like crazy, more kept being put on me, and I was made to feel as if I couldn't lighten my own load.
5. The church had an inner clique that left others out. And it was a small church so it was awkward.

There are more things but that's the gist and I'll spare the details.
 
Trans-Presbyterians are Presbyterians. Your transition will have its ups and downs. In all seriousness, welcome to the PCA.
 
Good wisdom, brother!
1. The pastor always kind of controlled the "thermostat" of the room with his personality. His way was the way everyone was expected to conform to and he had too much influence.
2. If someone wrestled with reformed doctrines they were considered "inferior", as if doubting reformed dogma was some major taboo.
3. Minor things were taught like they were the most important things.
4. I was one of the few that were serving like crazy, more kept being put on me, and I was made to feel as if I couldn't lighten my own load.
5. The church had an inner clique that left others out. And it was a small church so it was awkward.

There are more things but that's the gist and I'll spare the details.
Woof on all of those.
 
Good wisdom, brother!
1. The pastor always kind of controlled the "thermostat" of the room with his personality. His way was the way everyone was expected to conform to and he had too much influence.
2. If someone wrestled with reformed doctrines they were considered "inferior", as if doubting reformed dogma was some major taboo.
3. Minor things were taught like they were the most important things.
4. I was one of the few that were serving like crazy, more kept being put on me, and I was made to feel as if I couldn't lighten my own load.
5. The church had an inner clique that left others out. And it was a small church so it was awkward.

There are more things but that's the gist and I'll spare the details.
Thanks for sharing that Ryan, sorry to hear about that experience, sounds rough. I hope youre family has found a healthier environment to grow with God together in! I've seen most of these as well, I thought it was just the norm until I went somewhere else and those things weren't present or even heard of. It is encouraging to see how God uses these unsavory/less than ideal environments to deepen our dependence on Him and grow our convictions as well.
 
Thanks for sharing that Ryan, sorry to hear about that experience, sounds rough. I hope youre family has found a healthier environment to grow with God together in! I've seen most of these as well, I thought it was just the norm until I went somewhere else and those things weren't present or even heard of. It is encouraging to see how God uses these unsavory/less than ideal environments to deepen our dependence on Him and grow our convictions as well.
Yes thankfully we are in a very healthy church in the PCA. I'm sure there's many great ones out there. I hope the best for you and your family.
 
Smallest church I was a member of was a PCUS church of under 50 active members early in my career. Fortunately, economic necessity forced me to move to another state. I don't consider a church of under 100 members viable as a long term proposition. If an established church is under that number, you should ask yourself why. It may be because of distinctives, or it could be that they just aren't welcoming (or it could be that they are geographically disadvantaged, like the small town church where I was a member).


Strong caution on this.

In large parts of rural America, the largest church in town may not have many more than 100 people in attendance on Sunday morning. (Membership can be a whole different issue than attendance, with high-commitment churches sometimes having considerably more people attending than members, and the reverse for mainline or broad evangelical churches.)

And that's the Baptist and Pentecostal/charismatic and nondenominational evangelical churches.

I can think of very few confessionally Reformed churches I've attended since moving out of West Michigan nearly three decades ago that were over 100 people in attendance or membership.

We in the Reformed world have to deal with reality. In many cases there is ZERO possibility of ever having more than 20 to 30 to 50 people who agree with us in a community of 5,000 to 10,000 people. Even in a major city (by Missouri standards) like Springfield, it was EXTREMELY difficult to get a confessionally Reformed church started. I was involved almost from the beginning -- Springfield URC/Gospel of Grace (Indep.)/Heritage ARP almost died twice. Before that, a PCA closed. During that period, an EPC closed. And the PCA tried again to come in and gave up. (The PCA is now trying again and will have a much better chance with a pastor who has outside employment.)

The Baptists know how to start small churches and keep them open, largely because they can work with tentmaking pastors of small churches. Including Reformed Baptists.

We need to follow that model or there are large parts of the United States where there will never be a Reformed church.
 
In many cases there is ZERO possibility of ever having more than 20 to 30 to 50 people
Which doesn't change what is needed to have a viable church.

It's always going to be easier to plant a church in an area with a dynamic population and a growth profile. DFW could easily absorb one new church a year.

And it's always going to be harder to keep a church alive in an area with a static population and a shrinking profile.

I'd have to look at Springfield to express an opinion. It has a large enough population base to support a reformed body, but growth has been slow over the last 25 years, and I don't know how dynamic the population is, so I don't know if it is a good candidate for establishing one. History suggests not. Being in the Southwest Church Planting Network should help.
 
Edward, we could not disagree more about the viability of small churches in the 20 to 30 to 50 person range. Rev. Greco is right in what he said about stats on small churches being the norm.

That describes the typical evangelical church in rural America. They usually own their own buildings, usually with any mortgage paid off decades ago (or maybe in the 1800s), and have no paid pastor, or the pastor might occasionally get a "love offering" or a Christmas gift. It works, and since the pastors are typically community leaders -- examples in our community include teachers, school superintendents, city department heads, business owners, and even our former state representative -- a good case can be made that they are a lot more effective in outreach than a young pastor right out of seminary who comes to a small church for his first pastorate, spends only a few years in the community, and his goal is to move to a larger church when one calls him.

It's not as if I'm unfamiliar with large churches. I was baptized in First Park Congregational Church of Grand Rapids. My mother, after being told that as a member of the church choir that she was expected to sing "The Age of Aquarius" at a flag burning being organized by the new youth pastor during the 1960s -- no, I am not kidding -- she transferred with me to Mayflower Congregational Church, a politically conservative and theologically (by Congregational standards) moderate church in a wealthy Grand Rapids suburb where a lot of important Republican politicians attended. For context, my father was head of the Republican Party in Kent County (basically metro Grand Rapids), and while he was a lapsed Catholic and no longer attended church -- my mother had joined that Congregational church to get me baptized since my father refused to take the baptismal vows to raise me in the Catholic faith that would be required to get me baptized as a Catholic -- there were significant advantages to being a member of a large mainline church where attendance was rarely under a thousand and sometimes in excess of two thousand people.

Give me a small church any day that follows the Bible, with a pastor who deeply cares about pastoring and does his work out of passion rather than for pay, over a large "big steeple" mainline church.

You will correctly point out that we have more than just those two choices of large liberal mainliners and small struggling evangelical churches. I agree.

Remember that I grew up in Grand Rapids where (back then) the Dutch Reformed world thought a church with less than 40 families -- and that means FAMILIES, not counting widows, adult singles, or college students, which means an attendance well over a hundred -- was considered to be eligible for help from the CRC's "Fund for Needy Churches," and churches with less than 20 families were usually shut down as nonviable.

Try shutting down all PCA churches with fewer than 20 families as nonviable, by the CRC's definition of "family" being a married couple, not counting widows, singles, or college students living apart from their parents. Will that mean closure of a third of the denomination's non-urban churches? Half? More than that?

Let's deal with a hard truth. "Viability" is closely tied to the pastor's salary.

If the pastor has an outside job, viability is not going to be a problem for most small churches unless there is some sort of major structural failure in the building that the congregation can't afford to fix.

We can say that tentmaking is not ideal. Fine. You won't hear me disagreeing.

But for large parts of the United States, no other model will work in church planting.

We need to face facts. If we want Reformed churches, we need to change the failed model that wrecked Reformed church planting on the frontier in the 1800s and led to not just many but most Scots-Irish settlers becoming Methodists or Baptists because the Presbyterians couldn't provide pastors.

Small churches that start small have a tendency to become big churches. A lot of "First Baptist" churches in small towns in the early-to-mid 1800s are now very large "First Baptist" churches in small towns that became big cities. Later on, Reformed and Presbyterian people had to come in late and play catch-up because the people who had wanted a Presbyterian church years earlier, sometimes decades earlier, couldn't get a pastor.

Right here in my community, our local United Methodist Church was started by a Presbyterian elder who organized a church many years before the Civil War that included most of the leaders of the community and met in the county courthouse. He rode hundreds of miles on horseback all over Missouri trying to get a Presbyterian pastor to consider a call to the church he had started. The only pastors willing to come were Methodists so the church became Methodist. Our county never got a Presbyterian church until after the Civil War, decades too late, and by that time the Baptists and Methodists had taken over the field.

That story and ones like it got repeated not just hundreds but thousands of times all over the frontier. Put bluntly, it's our own fault as Reformed people that other people did the work we didn't do.

I've been living in rural America for the last thirty years, first in rural West Michigan, then a very non-Reformed part of Iowa, then Missouri, then attending churches in New Mexico and Texas, and then back to Missouri. I have watched with extreme frustration as upset Reformed people moved to the communities where I was living and not only could not find a Reformed church, but in some cases, couldn't find any evangelical church at all that was willing to accept them into membership without rebaptism, and many of those churches would not tolerate "Calvinism" in membership even if people agreed to be rebaptized.

In one state I had to drive almost two hours to the closest Reformed church, an OPC. In another, over two hours to an OPC. In another, about 45 minutes to an RPCNA. Here in Missouri, the first time I was here, I attended a PCA that was not at all Reformed and for that reason I never joined it despite attending every Sunday and getting many requests from the pastor for me to join. (To be clear, we're not talking minor issues -- two decades ago the church had an almost entirely female church council, I don't know of anyone in the church other than the pastor who knew the Westminster Standards existed or knew what the word "Calvinist" meant, and some of the church's leaders weren't aware they were in a denomination and thought the church was independent, which it might as well have been.) When I came back to Missouri the second time, I drove over an hour to a URC church plant that failed before the church went independent, joined the ARP, and is now an OPC. (I transferred out shortly before the church joined the OPC.)

This is the reality we face outside major cities.

The Reformed Baptists, put bluntly, are doing their jobs and getting people in their churches who would rather be in a church that practices infant baptism.

Good for them. Not good for us.

I love my Reformed Baptist brethren, but if we aren't going to be planting Reformed churches that practice infant baptism, we have only ourselves to blame when our people move to a community where there are no Reformed churches at all, or the only churches that are at all Reformed are Reformed Baptist churches pastored by tentmakers.

The lesson of the early 1800s should be a warning to us of what happens when we don't start churches in places that can't afford to pay a pastor.


Strong caution on this.

In large parts of rural America, the largest church in town may not have many more than 100 people in attendance on Sunday morning. (Membership can be a whole different issue than attendance, with high-commitment churches sometimes having considerably more people attending than members, and the reverse for mainline or broad evangelical churches.)

And that's the Baptist and Pentecostal/charismatic and nondenominational evangelical churches.

I can think of very few confessionally Reformed churches I've attended since moving out of West Michigan nearly three decades ago that were over 100 people in attendance or membership.

We in the Reformed world have to deal with reality. In many cases there is ZERO possibility of ever having more than 20 to 30 to 50 people who agree with us in a community of 5,000 to 10,000 people. Even in a major city (by Missouri standards) like Springfield, it was EXTREMELY difficult to get a confessionally Reformed church started. I was involved almost from the beginning -- Springfield URC/Gospel of Grace (Indep.)/Heritage ARP almost died twice. Before that, a PCA closed. During that period, an EPC closed. And the PCA tried again to come in and gave up. (The PCA is now trying again and will have a much better chance with a pastor who has outside employment.)

The Baptists know how to start small churches and keep them open, largely because they can work with tentmaking pastors of small churches. Including Reformed Baptists.

We need to follow that model or there are large parts of the United States where there will never be a Reformed church.

Which doesn't change what is needed to have a viable church.

It's always going to be easier to plant a church in an area with a dynamic population and a growth profile. DFW could easily absorb one new church a year.

And it's always going to be harder to keep a church alive in an area with a static population and a shrinking profile.

I'd have to look at Springfield to express an opinion. It has a large enough population base to support a reformed body, but growth has been slow over the last 25 years, and I don't know how dynamic the population is, so I don't know if it is a good candidate for establishing one. History suggests not. Being in the Southwest Church Planting Network should help.


There are challenges to a smaller church. I think they are accentuated if you are new to the area and don't have any connections outside of church.

But I have to disagree with Edward here. Even as a pastor of a 400-member church, I know that the average size of both PCA churches and churches in general is under 100. So not only is a sub-100 church viable, but it is also the norm.
 
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Edward, we could not disagree more about the viability of small churches in the 20 to 30 to 50 person range. Rev. Greco is right in what he said about stats on small churches being the norm.
I don't disagree with Rev. Greco's stats. I just disagree about long term viability in dying rural communities.
 
I don't disagree with Rev. Greco's stats. I just disagree about long term viability in dying rural communities.

Okay, we're now talking about two different things.

Many cities are dying, or at least their conservative residents are fleeing crime, left-wing radicalism, and woke schools. Many rural communities are not dying at all, but rather experiencing growth, sometimes major growth.

According to the US Census, our county was the third-fastest growing "micropolitan" region in the entire United States between the 2000 and 2010 census. We're still growing but not at that level, which is certainly unrealistic for a rural area. But even with that growth, and a population of 55,000 people, it's considered an impossible area to start a Reformed church because of our high transiency due to our military population. I'm sitting at a government meeting right now where the presenter is showing that our county's federal employment, both military and civilian, has ranged from 58.2 percent to 51.6 percent of jobs between 2019 and 2024, mostly due to Fort Leonard Wood.

I've seen dozens of new churches started in our county over the last two decades by Baptists, charismatics, and various independent evangelicals. I've gotten call after call from frustrated military families with not a single church in our county that is confessionally Reformed and will accept them into membership due to infant baptism, and when I first came here, a church that is now Reformed Baptist was seriously struggling with a Reformed pastor in a typical conservative SBC church. That church is now soundly Reformed but it took years to get there, and they are small enough that they will probably never be able to pay a pastor.

Traditional Reformed church planting won't work and can't work in a lot of rural America. Tentmakers are essential, and it's best for those tentmakers to be local community leaders who have lived in the community for decades, not "parachute pastors" who come in, know nobody, and leave for a bigger church in a few years.

There's a longer story, but the short version is I'm sick and tired of saying, "Why isn't anyone else doing something," so my wife and I met with the ARP presbytery home mission committee chairman, we bought a church building (cash, no mortgage, which is important to make clear there is no lack of resources) and we probably would be doing an ARP church plant if the church of which I had been a member for close to two decades hadn't decided to leave the ARP and join the OPC. That came out of the blue and we had no idea it was being considered, but the votes passed and that left us with no choice to leave our church and seek affiliation elsewhere. I don't belong in the OPC, and having attended two different OPCs when living in other states, and having attended almost every OPC general assembly back in the 1990s and more presbytery meetings than I can count, I asked for and received an amicable transfer despite being almost the longest-term member of my church.

End result: While it's all but certain now that we will be officially and formally a Waldensian preaching station, I'm not naive about the realities. We'll be de facto independent, as are most small churches located far away from any other church in their presbytery, classis, or association. That's life.

I would have been quite willing to support a traditional NAPARC church in this community. Obviously we bought a building and there are no money issues.

But I'm sick and tired of listening to Reformed people focus on urban and suburban ministry and ignoring places where there is an obvious need but nobody wants to come unless the church can pay a full time salary.

That's just not realistic in most of rural America and never will be.
 
Brothers, I don't think we should be too dogmatic across the board about this. God is sovereign and in His providence, small churches are viable long-term. My PCA church is in a more rural-ish location and was established in the 1890s. Additionally, it underwent a split in the mid 90s over the congregation moving in a more Reformed direction after having joined the PCA. Many of the PCA churches in my Presbytery had a strong Baptistic influence initially.

We have around 60 communicant members and attendance varies as with any church. Despite that, we own our building and are in a great spot financially. I am currently serving as pulpit supply and, Lord willing, the congregation will call me as pastor upon completing seminary. So I would argue that in my church's case, 130 years so far is viable long term. Also, our previous pastor served here for 36 years. Yet, I know that other churches have not been viable or had to close sadly. All this to say that we must not speak dogmatically about churches being viable or not viable based on size of membership or attendance.
 
I understand where your coming from, I left my 600 member charasmatic church to a 30 people in the local naparc church, URCNA the only confessional reformed church in my town. I would say do your best to forget non denominational or neo pentecostal ways of thinking, I found most of my concerns were not based on scripture or confession but based on how I thought things ought to be because of experience, one of these is no one other than an ordained ministers can preach, or my personal beliefs on how centralized the spiritual gifts are.

I think it best for you to learn tltouebchurches standards and catechism likely through the church or on a family devotional practice, learning how reformed and presbyterians think, I feel Catechisis is central to learning a new way to think about many practical and theological issues
 
He's right.

The whole point of creeds and confessions is so we have Scripture proofs that tell us where to find what the Bible says on every major topic that the particular Reformed tradition to which the local church belongs, historically speaking over many centuries, has considered to be important enough to bind its officers to agree with the confessions. That's far better than a brief "statement of faith" which may have been written willy-nilly by a local group of laymen and their pastor who may or may not have formal theologically training, or a "no creed but Christ" mentality that rejects even statements of faith.

This is a very different way of thinking about the church than typical American evangelicalism. It recognizes that, as Christians, we need to be humble and recognize that a lot of other people far smarter than us have thought about the same questions we ask, and we ought to pay attention to how they answered those questions.

Unlike Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, we do believe that all synods and councils, even ecumenical councils, can err. The Bible is our rule of faith, not councils.

We wouldn't make a major life decision without getting advice -- or at least we shouldn't -- and the same principle applies to church life that applies to our personal lives. In fact, more so. If I make a poor decision on taking out a business loan or what college to attend or who to marry, I may mess up my life for years or even decades. If I make a major church decision on something like the Trinity without getting advice, my eternal life is at stake and so are the eternal lives of the people in the pews. Denying that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man means He is not capable of fully saving men from their total depravity, and rejecting some categories of doctrine will have eternal consequences.

We have creeds and confessions to teach people and prevent them from falling unwittingly into major error and even heresy.

I understand where your coming from, I left my 600 member charasmatic church to a 30 people in the local naparc church, URCNA the only confessional reformed church in my town. I would say do your best to forget non denominational or neo pentecostal ways of thinking, I found most of my concerns were not based on scripture or confession but based on how I thought things ought to be because of experience, one of these is no one other than an ordained ministers can preach, or my personal beliefs on how centralized the spiritual gifts are.

I think it best for you to learn tltouebchurches standards and catechism likely through the church or on a family devotional practice, learning how reformed and presbyterians think, I feel Catechisis is central to learning a new way to think about many practical and theological issues
 
Okay, we're now talking about two different things.

Many cities are dying, or at least their conservative residents are fleeing crime, left-wing radicalism, and woke schools. Many rural communities are not dying at all, but rather experiencing growth, sometimes major growth.

According to the US Census, our county was the third-fastest growing "micropolitan" region in the entire United States between the 2000 and 2010 census. We're still growing but not at that level, which is certainly unrealistic for a rural area. But even with that growth, and a population of 55,000 people, it's considered an impossible area to start a Reformed church because of our high transiency due to our military population. I'm sitting at a government meeting right now where the presenter is showing that our county's federal employment, both military and civilian, has ranged from 58.2 percent to 51.6 percent of jobs between 2019 and 2024, mostly due to Fort Leonard Wood.

I've seen dozens of new churches started in our county over the last two decades by Baptists, charismatics, and various independent evangelicals. I've gotten call after call from frustrated military families with not a single church in our county that is confessionally Reformed and will accept them into membership due to infant baptism, and when I first came here, a church that is now Reformed Baptist was seriously struggling with a Reformed pastor in a typical conservative SBC church. That church is now soundly Reformed but it took years to get there, and they are small enough that they will probably never be able to pay a pastor.

Traditional Reformed church planting won't work and can't work in a lot of rural America. Tentmakers are essential, and it's best for those tentmakers to be local community leaders who have lived in the community for decades, not "parachute pastors" who come in, know nobody, and leave for a bigger church in a few years.

There's a longer story, but the short version is I'm sick and tired of saying, "Why isn't anyone else doing something," so my wife and I met with the ARP presbytery home mission committee chairman, we bought a church building (cash, no mortgage, which is important to make clear there is no lack of resources) and we probably would be doing an ARP church plant if the church of which I had been a member for close to two decades hadn't decided to leave the ARP and join the OPC. That came out of the blue and we had no idea it was being considered, but the votes passed and that left us with no choice to leave our church and seek affiliation elsewhere. I don't belong in the OPC, and having attended two different OPCs when living in other states, and having attended almost every OPC general assembly back in the 1990s and more presbytery meetings than I can count, I asked for and received an amicable transfer despite being almost the longest-term member of my church.

End result: While it's all but certain now that we will be officially and formally a Waldensian preaching station, I'm not naive about the realities. We'll be de facto independent, as are most small churches located far away from any other church in their presbytery, classis, or association. That's life.

I would have been quite willing to support a traditional NAPARC church in this community. Obviously we bought a building and there are no money issues.

But I'm sick and tired of listening to Reformed people focus on urban and suburban ministry and ignoring places where there is an obvious need but nobody wants to come unless the church can pay a full time salary.

That's just not realistic in most of rural America and never will be.
Yeah I definitely understand that, I live in a small town in Canada and we stay around 30 or less people it can be discouraging but we have seen God bring us visitors every year or couple months.
 
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