Alcohol and chrstians

[johnny]

Well, I for one, enjoy the taste of beer. The hoppier,the better. I used to enjoy the taste of red wine..the acidity and I don't mix now however. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say " I'd like to smoke a joint, because I really enjoy the complex blend of favors". So I would not see it as an accurate comparison of alcohol and marajuana. If someone said I could either get high or drunk, that is a comparison. But that is an extreme end and no one that Ive seen here is saying either of those is ok.

I'm not sure how much weight this would add to the counterargument... but the establishments that are on the forefront of selling cannabis as a consumer recreational use product promote their products for the different distinctions each different strain carries. It's not all centered around the intoxicating effects. Flavor profiles, etc.

Cannabis has a different effect on the mind to wine.
There is already a flood of people using vaporizers including celeb's like Whoopy Goldberg ect..

http://www.today.com/health/whoopi-goldberg-touts-vape-pen-debut-column-marijuana-1D79549417

Steve (Jerusalem Blade) posits a good argument for the use of recreational drugs to be akin to sorcery.
I agree with Steve's position and think that this is a dangerous development, and that the use of these vaporizers
will eventually bring with them a rise in the rates of mental illness along with other harmful effects.

http://www.puritanboard.com/entry.php/763-Marijuana-allowed-in-the-church

 

[LilyG]

...The sole purpose of drinking alcohol is .. intoxication. Drunkenness.

Sadly, for many it is. But to make a sweeping statement like that for all who partake, and condemn their consciences as impious where there is no biblical warrant to do so is, at best, unfair.

You would need to deal with some passages, some of which have been already shared. Wine was enjoyed to "make the heart glad," to rejoice together before the Lord (Deut 14:22-26) and celebrate cheerfully in fellowship; wine was used in drink offerings and along with certain sacrifices (Num 28:7, Ex 29:40, 2 Chron 31:5), was seen as a blessing (Gen 27:28, Joel 2:24-26, Joel 3:18), was partaken of by our Lord, is a crucial element in the Lord's Supper, and will accompany the final Feast.

So, what purposes do the followers of Christ have to need to escape ones mental faculties, to desire impairedness?

I don't think those who partake rightfully desire mental impairment so much as... well, to gladden the heart. A social lubricant, to "feel a livelier gratitude to God" (Calvin), and yes, taste! A good beer is delicious! What else do we do to improve our mood? Should we also not pray? Go for a jog? Listen to good music? Cook a good meal?

 

[Reformed Roman]

There is personal liberty in this matter but there should also be cautious advice to avoid the pitfalls of a drinking culture and to guard against "excess." Some of what passes for alcohol is nothing more than poison. The occasions for partaking can become far too regular. Social drinking is a danger. Alcohol can be a temptation to temporarily escape the pressures of life. The inexperienced must especially be wary. Those in places of responsibility over others are encouraged to be as clear-minded as possible, which may be an occasion for abstinence. As it is better to be in the house of mourning than the house of feasting one might choose to abstain from that which artificially makes the heart merry. Non Christians might have dissociated alcohol from Christianity to such a degree that they will not take your witness seriously if they know you drink alcohol. There are a whole range of factors which must be considered when choosing to exercise one's liberty in this matter.

I loved this post.

You cannot save anyone by works. But if you serve a Muslim bacon for dinner that doesn't eat pork, you won't even have an opportunity to share the gospel. Things we do, and taking advantage of liberties we have can hinder opportunities we would have had to share the gospel and can hinder many other things. Whether you eat or drink do all things for the glory of God

 

[nicksully24]

If your consumption of alcohol might cause a brother to sin, you should abstain. Not because the alcohol consumption is sinful, but because causing a fellow Christian to sin or harming their conscious is sinful

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Andrew P.C.]

Unless one can make an argument that alcohol (used in a normal, not trying to get drunk, way) leads one to idolatry or sin, we should not forbid what scripture calls good. "Wine which makes man’s heart glad" is not to be used as a weapon toward the believer. If a Christian is using something that God said is good, then who is man to tell him otherwise?

If you base your Christian life as displayed among the pagans by one or two drinks, then you have a gross view of the Christian life. One is not saved by what you do (which is heresy) but by the power of God alone. To think otherwise is anti-Christ.

Let scripture be your guide, not man.

"He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart."

Psalm 104

 

[VictorBravo]

If you base your Christian life as displayed among the pagans by one or two drinks, then you have a gross view of the Christian life. One is not saved by what you do (which is heresy) but by the power of God alone. To think otherwise is anti-Christ.

I'm trying to sort this out.

I can't think that you mean that a Christian who, for reasons of prudence (for example), decides not to drink one or two drinks among pagans is basing his life on works-righteousness.

I agree that what you do doesn't save you, I don't think anyone here as said otherwise. Maybe you are saying that a Christian who refuses to drink among pagans is presenting a bad testimony?

Or alternatively, does it mean that a Christian who doesn't drink among pagans because of fear of what people think of him is sinning, or at least in error?

Maybe I'm dense right now, but I don't follow.

 

[bobtheman]

Unless one can make an argument that alcohol (used in a normal, not trying to get drunk, way) leads one to idolatry or sin, we should not forbid what scripture calls good. "Wine which makes man’s heart glad" is not to be used as a weapon toward the believer. If a Christian is using something that God said is good, then who is man to tell him otherwise?

If you base your Christian life as displayed among the pagans by one or two drinks, then you have a gross view of the Christian life. One is not saved by what you do (which is heresy) but by the power of God alone. To think otherwise is anti-Christ.

Let scripture be your guide, not man.

"He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart."

Psalm 104

My prior statement was to the effect of ... Any amount of alcohol consumption provides a level of intoxication that effects one judgment. I found the following definition of "drunk": having the faculties impaired by alcohol.

If any level of consumption is also a level of intoxication, and any level of impairedness is drunkenness ...



And then I get to verses like the one you just quoted.

 

[johnny]

Unless one can make an argument that alcohol (used in a normal, not trying to get drunk, way) leads one to idolatry or sin, we should not forbid what scripture calls good. "Wine which makes man’s heart glad" is not to be used as a weapon toward the believer. If a Christian is using something that God said is good, then who is man to tell him otherwise?

If you base your Christian life as displayed among the pagans by one or two drinks, then you have a gross view of the Christian life. One is not saved by what you do (which is heresy) but by the power of God alone. To think otherwise is anti-Christ.

Let scripture be your guide, not man.

"He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart."

Psalm 104

If any level of consumption is also a level of intoxication,
and any level of impairedness is drunkenness ...

I think that's a bit of an overstatement,
Proverbs describes drunkeness in obvious terms,

Proverbs 23:29-35
Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Paul also qualifies his statement in Ephesians with excess.
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

 

[Andrew P.C.]

If you base your Christian life as displayed among the pagans by one or two drinks, then you have a gross view of the Christian life. One is not saved by what you do (which is heresy) but by the power of God alone. To think otherwise is anti-Christ.

I'm trying to sort this out.

I can't think that you mean that a Christian who, for reasons of prudence (for example), decides not to drink one or two drinks among pagans is basing his life on works-righteousness.

I agree that what you do doesn't save you, I don't think anyone here as said otherwise. Maybe you are saying that a Christian who refuses to drink among pagans is presenting a bad testimony?

Or alternatively, does it mean that a Christian who doesn't drink among pagans because of fear of what people think of him is sinning, or at least in error?

Maybe I'm dense right now, but I don't follow.

What I am saying is this: one who lets the pagan culture rule his actions is in sin. To say alcohol is bad because "a pagan said so" is contra scriptura.

Earlier Edward had a good point: educate the person. This can do two things: 1) let the person know that God is gracious and kind to His creatures by giving us such a wonderful thing to enjoy and 2) led into a conversation about the pagan's sinful state and his need for Christ.

If someone is suggesting that they should let a pagan rule his actions, then you refuse to believe what the scriptures teach. Are we not to have scripture be the bind of our conscience? Again, if anyone suggests that alcohol leads one to idolatry then abstain (1 Cor. 9). However, I do not think 1 Cor. 9 is being used accurately when one uses it as the fundamentalists of the early 1900s use it. We aren't legalistic.

Finally, I am also saying that our Christian testimony is not based upon a drink of beer (quite absurd and to think so IS legalistic). The gospel isn't hindered by having a beer, know why? Because you cannot do anything to change the heart. Likewise (just so we are clear), there is a biblical command NOT to get drunk as well. I believe Larger Catechism 130 does it well, in which drunkenness is a violation of the 5th commandment: "The sins of superiors are.... or any way dishonouring themselves, or lessening their authority, by an unjust, indiscreet, rigorous, or remiss behaviour" (Referencing Gen. 9:21).

 

[VictorBravo]

Unless one can make an argument that alcohol (used in a normal, not trying to get drunk, way) leads one to idolatry or sin, we should not forbid what scripture calls good. "Wine which makes man’s heart glad" is not to be used as a weapon toward the believer. If a Christian is using something that God said is good, then who is man to tell him otherwise?

If you base your Christian life as displayed among the pagans by one or two drinks, then you have a gross view of the Christian life. One is not saved by what you do (which is heresy) but by the power of God alone. To think otherwise is anti-Christ.

Let scripture be your guide, not man.

"He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart."

Psalm 104

My prior statement was to the effect of ... Any amount of alcohol consumption provides a level of intoxication that effects one judgment. I found the following definition of "drunk": having the faculties impaired by alcohol.

If any level of consumption is also a level of intoxication, and any level of impairedness is drunkenness ...



And then I get to verses like the one you just quoted.

Richard, I think the problem here is the non-scriptural view of "impairedness."

If I can rephrase it, the argument sounds like:

being drunk is bad (God says so)

consuming alcohol causes one to become intoxicated (science says so, you can measure it!)

being intoxicated, even a little bit, is being drunk (introduced judgment call from a teetotaler)

therefore, consuming any amount of alcohol is bad. (non sequitur).

We have two sides of the issue: God calls drunkeness a sin, yet God clearly sets out times when drinking alcohol is good.

The conclusion must be that the judgment that "drinking is bad" is overly simplistic.

The other conclusion is confirmed by practice: having a glass of wine or glass of beer does not "impair" a normal person in a way that clouds his judgment so that he loses control. That is negative projection.

We see every day folks who have a drink and then go on with other tasks. The very fact that they can limit their drinks indicates their judgment is not impaired. That kind of consumption is even commended in some cases, as noted in your quote.

 

[OPC'n]

A nice single malt scotch neat is very non-sinful.

 

[soulwinner3000]

Communal taboos over the consumption of alchohol and other such things tend to blunten consciences rather than sharpen them-i think J.I. Packer said something along those lines.
I believe that luther had a good understanding of christian liberty, i think a good grasp of Justification by Faith is conducive to that, a healthy understanding of christian liberty needs to be revived i think.
I really enjoy fine ales in moderation, gifts of God are often better enjoyed that way

 

[Toasty]

in the media we often see individuals drinking after a hard day of work to take the edge off - is this taking the place of someone trusting in Christ and turning to him in prayer?

One might just as well ask whether drinking coffee in the morning is taking the place of personal devotions. For nonbelievers undoubtedly it can take the place of prayer, but I find that coffee pairs well with the Word. And similarly, I can come home and give thanks to God for a beer after a long day.

I think bobtheman's point was if people routinely go for a drink at the end of a working day to "take the edge off" or "relax", then that is clearly idolatry. Instead of resting on Christ they are resting on alcohol. And it's just the same with coffee. When things like these become "necessities" and we start having cravings or get into patterns then something's not right. We need to eat and drink to nourish the body but we should never need alcohol or caffeine.

ReformedReidian said:

"3. Does alcohol serve any purpose other than intoxication?
If people drink without getting drunk, then does that fellowship count as a "purpose"?"

Do they need alcohol to have fellowship though? If so, there's something wrong. It's the Spirit which unites, not alcohol. Or at least that's how it should be.

The drinking of alcohol in small amounts is lawful. But in reaction to those churches which prohibit it, there are many in the Reformed community who go to the opposite extreme and extol it and promote it in a way which is unseemly and sinful. For a start, Christians should not be going to pubs and other places where alcohol consumption is the focus and where it is promoted as an end in itself. Noisy, raucous venues where people routinely drink to excess- even if the Christian doesn't- are the venues of the world. They are where the world goes to talk about the things of the world whilst drinking the drinks of the world. This is no place for a Christian.

But even in our own homes we need to be careful. Some say that the drinking of alcohol aids theological discussion. I find this a very shaky argument. There was a Reformed Forum Christ the Center episode- no. 200 maybe?- which was just a 2 hour roundtable discussion. Throughout that discussion the men were imbibing (by their own admission and from the frequent openings of bottles) and, surprise surprise, as the discussion progressed they got louder, more raucous, more argumentative and it ended up becoming a most unedifying spectacle (for the ears). They were drunk and it was obvious they were drunk. It was really quite shameful. Is this the sort of theological discussion we want? And it's not just alcohol. Certain quarters in the Reformed camp also extol the virtues of smoking! And they combine the two. Smoking, which is basically a violation of the 6th commandment.

It is often from a spirit of licentiousness that the arguments in favour of these things is made. I think if arguments like "we need to watch to see when we might start slipping into drunkenness or have others watch" are problematic. We should never be in that situation in the first place!

What do you think about drinking it because one likes the taste? Many times people eat and drink things, not for their nutritional value, but because they like the taste.

 

[Philip]

When we draw hard lines where God does not, we inevitably end up focusing on our boundaries rather than on what God has said. Not only that, but when others see this, they too lose respect for God's law. The categorical teetotaller and the drunkard are two sides of the same coin.

 

[LilyG]

When we draw hard lines where God does not, we inevitably end up focusing on our boundaries rather than on what God has said.

This!