Anglicanism

[JM]

No offence to any Anglicans on PB, I know you have struggled for confessionalism but I still have to ask, what happened to Anglicanism?

I've read much of the complete works of Augustus Toplady and the writings of other Anglicans and I can't wrap my head around it. The Book of Common Prayer is amazing and I still use it often. I just don't get it. Is the ACNA the answer?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[NaphtaliPress]

This would probably be best asked in a broader discussion board that has a good representation of Anglican members.

 

[RamistThomist]

No offence to any Anglicans on PB, I know you have struggled for confessionalism but I still have to ask, what happened to Anglicanism?

I've read much of the complete works of Augustus Toplady and the writings of other Anglicans and I can't wrap my head around it. The Book of Common Prayer is amazing and I still use it often. I just don't get it. Is the ACNA the answer?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

African Anglicanism is much better off (and has more members) than Anglo Anglicanism. We can ask the same thing of Jonathan Edwards' community which quickly went Unitarian.

 

[Jake]

I think you'd have to look at the continuing Anglican movement. Most of the "mainline" parts of Anglican Communion are pretty far gone, especially the Protestant Episcopal Church/TEC in the US and the Anglican Church of Canada. Many parts of global Anglicanism are sounder, including in much of Africa. There are also random sound dioceses like the Sydney (Australia) Anglicans which are low church, evangelical, and Reformed-friendly.

However, many bodies of Anglicans are no longer part of the Anglican Communion, or at least not directly. The ACNA is one example, but it is incredibly broad tent and has everything like Puritan minded folks like J.I. Packer to egalitarian open thiests to full on Anglo-Catholics. There's latitude among the dioceses of ACNA, where the Reformed Episcopal Church dioceses are traditionally more Reformed (though nowadays, they are also open to Anglo-Catholic views), Churches for the Sake of Others are more broadly evangelical and charismatic, and CANA has traditionally been more Reformed and sound, but I think they withdrew recently. REC for example doesn't have female priests, but others do.

There's also a hodgepodge of different continuing Anglican bodies. Some are more Reformed (like the Church of England (Continuing)), but most are quite Anglo-Catholic.

 

[RamistThomist]

I remember around 2015 the African Anglicans, in a complete Alpha move, told the Anglos they had to repent of homosexuality or something. It was awesome.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

Let's be completely fair, outsiders looking in could also say, "What's up with Presbyterianism? It was once so Confessional. Remember the Westminster Assembly? Is the OPC the answer?"

I mean, to most people the PC(USA) is the "public face" of Presbyterianism. The Mainliners make all of us look bad.

 

[JM]

This would probably be best asked in a broader discussion board that has a good representation of Anglican members.

I have but it usually breaks down quickly. A lot of Anglicans, liberal and conservative, are tired from all the infighting and my posts were removed. Asking the question was seen as attacking Anglicanism...even by conservatives.

 

[JM]

African Anglicanism is much better off (and has more members) than Anglo Anglicanism. We can ask the same thing of Jonathan Edwards' community which quickly went Unitarian.

Africa and Asia, yes.

 

[JM]

I think you'd have to look at the continuing Anglican movement. Most of the "mainline" parts of Anglican Communion are pretty far gone, especially the Protestant Episcopal Church/TEC in the US and the Anglican Church of Canada. Many parts of global Anglicanism are sounder, including in much of Africa. There are also random sound dioceses like the Sydney (Australia) Anglicans which are low church, evangelical, and Reformed-friendly.

However, many bodies of Anglicans are no longer part of the Anglican Communion, or at least not directly. The ACNA is one example, but it is incredibly broad tent and has everything like Puritan minded folks like J.I. Packer to egalitarian open thiests to full on Anglo-Catholics. There's latitude among the dioceses of ACNA, where the Reformed Episcopal Church dioceses are traditionally more Reformed (though nowadays, they are also open to Anglo-Catholic views), Churches for the Sake of Others are more broadly evangelical and charismatic, and CANA has traditionally been more Reformed and sound, but I think they withdrew recently. REC for example doesn't have female priests, but others do.

There's also a hodgepodge of different continuing Anglican bodies. Some are more Reformed (like the Church of England (Continuing)), but most are quite Anglo-Catholic.

The new ACNA Book of Common Prayer has taken on a more Catholic flavour include two rites for Holy Communion (one looks a lot like the Novus Ordo), a rite for confession and a service for Lent. Archbishop Folley Beach seems like an evangelical preacher, conservative, but his worship style is high church.

 

[W.C. Dean]

I've never met a conservative Anglican in my life. The Episcopal Churches near me are as far as I know the most liberal within a few counties. The closest one to me is a place where Thomas Jefferson once worshipped. We know the wife of one of their elders, and she is a universalist and pro-homosexuality. The Episcopal Diocese of Virginia very much flaunts their egalitarianism. I've looked it up before, and I'd have to travel quite far for a conservative Anglican church. It certainly does not reflect well on the American Anglican churches.

 

[JM]

I've never met a conservative Anglican in my life. The Episcopal Churches near me are as far as I know the most liberal within a few counties. The closest one to me is a place where Thomas Jefferson once worshipped. We know the wife of one of their elders, and she is a universalist and pro-homosexuality. The Episcopal Diocese of Virginia very much flaunts their egalitarianism. I've looked it up before, and I'd have to travel quite far for a conservative Anglican church. It certainly does not reflect well on the American Anglican churches.

I've met two orthodox, Anglican ministers. One ended up converting to Rome and the other has a ACNA church plant about an hour and a half from where I live. Not many out there.

 

[Jake]

The new ACNA Book of Common Prayer has taken on a more Catholic flavour include two rites for Holy Communion (one looks a lot like the Novus Ordo), a rite for confession and a service for Lent. Archbishop Folley Beach seems like an evangelical preacher, conservative, but his worship style is high church.

That's disappointing, as J.I. Packer was the "Senior Reader" on the task force to create it: http://anglicanchurch.net/?/main/texts_for_common_prayer

I suppose there were a lot of competing voices.

 

[Jake]

I've never met a conservative Anglican in my life. The Episcopal Churches near me are as far as I know the most liberal within a few counties. The closest one to me is a place where Thomas Jefferson once worshipped. We know the wife of one of their elders, and she is a universalist and pro-homosexuality. The Episcopal Diocese of Virginia very much flaunts their egalitarianism. I've looked it up before, and I'd have to travel quite far for a conservative Anglican church. It certainly does not reflect well on the American Anglican churches.

I'd be careful judging Anglicanism by The Episcopal Church -- the same might be said if you're surrounded by PC(USA) Presbyterians of what Presbyterianism is. Modern Anglicanism has a very different set of issues than Modern Presbyterianism, but the mainline denominations in both case have fallen hard into Liberalism. For what it's worth, near York County I see a couple of ACNA congregations and some smaller other continuing Anglican bodies. I don't really know what the difference is between the random small Anglican denominations though. I'm happy to just keep up with all of the micro-Presbyterians.

 

[JM]

That's disappointing, as J.I. Packer was the "Senior Reader" on the task force to create it: http://anglicanchurch.net/?/main/texts_for_common_prayer

I suppose there were a lot of competing voices.

I have seen the BCP 2019 and read through it. It's funny, the intro video has a lady "priest" talking about it, lol Womans ordination is still a hot topic leaving the issue to each Bishop to decide. Their position paper actually comes out against it but it's allowed. Weird.

I almost jumped from the Baptist Church to Anglican in 2018 after attending for 6 months. The minister was a military man training to be a priest for the Armed Forces in Canada. He ran a strict, conservative service and I really enjoyed my time there. He was personally a liberal but he didn't mess with the liturgy (BCP, 1962) and his homilies were direct and straight to the point. When he shipped out the Bishop sent in a lady "priest" so I shipped out as well. At least the ANCA still confesses and ordains their priests with the Anglican ordinary with the 39 Articles.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[149-deleted]

If you want to know about what happened to British Anglicanism, you need to know about 1966 and the National Assembly of Evangelicals. And while it will be a long read you can hardly do better than read Iain Murray's biography of one of the two men at ground zero: Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones. @Jake J I Packer shifted his position from being against to being for ecumenism and was one of the contributors to Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

To put it briefly, British evangelicalism, particularly in England and Wales, faced the issue of the ecumenical movement. The greatest numbers among the evangelicals were Anglican evangelicals. Unfortunately some prominent Anglicans including Packer decided that they wished to shed this image the evangelicals had of being too rigid and unwilling to be flexible and thus compromised, hoping they could thus gain a voice at the table and influence the direction things were going.

Unfortunately those who gave in to the ecumenical movement gave up far more than they received. This is of course far from a comprehensive picture. I would recommend the 2-volume biography of ML-J for a fuller picture and to see the build-up and background to it all.

 

[RamistThomist]

If you want to know about what happened to British Anglicanism, you need to know about 1966 and the National Assembly of Evangelicals. And while it will be a long read you can hardly do better than read Iain Murray's biography of one of the two men at ground zero: Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones. @Jake J I Packer shifted his position from being against to being for ecumenism and was one of the contributors to Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

To put it briefly, British evangelicalism, particularly in England and Wales, faced the issue of the ecumenical movement. The greatest numbers among the evangelicals were Anglican evangelicals. Unfortunately some prominent Anglicans including Packer decided that they wished to shed this image the evangelicals had of being too rigid and unwilling to be flexible and thus compromised, hoping they could thus gain a voice at the table and influence the direction things were going.

Unfortunately those who gave in to the ecumenical movement gave up far more than they received. This is of course far from a comprehensive picture. I would recommend the 2-volume biography of ML-J for a fuller picture and to see the build-up and background to it all.

Correct. Especially volume 2 of MLJ

 

[Jake]

If you want to know about what happened to British Anglicanism, you need to know about 1966 and the National Assembly of Evangelicals. And while it will be a long read you can hardly do better than read Iain Murray's biography of one of the two men at ground zero: Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones. @Jake J I Packer shifted his position from being against to being for ecumenism and was one of the contributors to Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

To put it briefly, British evangelicalism, particularly in England and Wales, faced the issue of the ecumenical movement. The greatest numbers among the evangelicals were Anglican evangelicals. Unfortunately some prominent Anglicans including Packer decided that they wished to shed this image the evangelicals had of being too rigid and unwilling to be flexible and thus compromised, hoping they could thus gain a voice at the table and influence the direction things were going.

Unfortunately those who gave in to the ecumenical movement gave up far more than they received. This is of course far from a comprehensive picture. I would recommend the 2-volume biography of ML-J for a fuller picture and to see the build-up and background to it all.

Some of this is recorded in Evangelism Divided by Iain Murray as well, including J.I. Packer's shift towards ecumenicism.

 

[yeutter]

Is the ACNA the answer?

If the ACNA was the answer it must have been a pretty dumb question. The ACNA is a mixed bag. Many ACNA dioceses are dominated by Anglo-Catholics and even more Dioceses are neo-Pentecostals. Thirty Nine Article confessional Anglicans are a small minority in the ACNA.

African Anglicanism is much better off (and has more members) than Anglo Anglicanism. We can ask the same thing of Jonathan Edwards' community which quickly went Unitarian.

Some African Anglican jurisdictions, notably the Anglican Province of Nigeria are better off than the Church of England, and the mess we have in North America. Many Anglican jurisdictions in Africa, especially in East Africa, are Pentecostal. The Pentecostals are 'led by the spirit' to ordain women. The Province of South Africa is just as liberal as the Episcopal Church in the States.

Africa and Asia, yes.

Anglicans in India got merged into the corrupt ecumenical jurisdictions: the Church of North India, and the Church of South India. Some Anglicans stayed out of these messes and eventually won there property back in the civil courts. Most of the continuing Anglican Churches in India are Anglo-Catholic.
The Anglican Province of Myanmar is faithful.
The Anglican Province of South East Asia is a mixed bag. All of the thirty or so large Anglican parishes in Singapore are Pentecostal.
The Anglican Church in Malaysia is mixed, Reformed and Anglo Catholic. The Anglican deanery in Nepal is under the Diocese or Singapore and are Pentecostal.
Hong Kong is liberal.
What pretends to be Anglicanism in the Philippines, Taiwan, and Korea are under the control of the Episcopal Church

The new ACNA Book of Common Prayer has taken on a more Catholic flavour include two rites for Holy Communion (one looks a lot like the Novus Ordo), a rite for confession and a service for Lent. Archbishop Folley Beach seems like an evangelical preacher, conservative, but his worship style is high church.

The ACNA BCP has indeed seriously deviated from the approach to liturgy and worship found in the 1662 BCP. Archbishop Foley Beach is a Pentecostal tolerant Anglo Catholic. He does not himself ordain women, but is tolerant of those who do.

The Archdiocese of Sydney and their associated theological school Moore College is one bright spot within Anglicanism. https://moore.edu.au

The Church of Nigeria is the other faithful witness to historic Anglican faith and practice within the Anglican mainstream.

 

[W.C. Dean]

If the ACNA was the answer it must have been a pretty dumb question. The ACNA is a mixed bag. Many ACNA dioceses are dominated by Anglo-Catholics and even more Dioceses are neo-Pentecostals. Thirty Nine Article confessional Anglicans are a small minority in the ACNA.

Some African Anglican jurisdictions, notably the Anglican Province of Nigeria are better off than the Church of England, and the mess we have in North America. Many Anglican jurisdictions in Africa, especially in East Africa, are Pentecostal. The Pentecostals are 'led by the spirit' to ordain women. The Province of South Africa is just as liberal as the Episcopal Church in the States.

Anglicans in India got merged into the corrupt ecumenical jurisdictions: the Church of North India, and the Church of South India. Some Anglicans stayed out of these messes and eventually won there property back in the civil courts. Most of the continuing Anglican Churches in India are Anglo-Catholic.
The Anglican Province of Myanmar is faithful.
The Anglican Province of South East Asia is a mixed bag. All of the thirty or so large Anglican parishes in Singapore are Pentecostal.
The Anglican Church in Malaysia is mixed, Reformed and Anglo Catholic. The Anglican deanery in Nepal is under the Diocese or Singapore and are Pentecostal.
Hong Kong is liberal.
What pretends to be Anglicanism in the Philippines, Taiwan, and Korea are under the control of the Episcopal Church

The ACNA BCP has indeed seriously deviated from the approach to liturgy and worship found in the 1662 BCP. Archbishop Foley Beach is a Pentecostal tolerant Anglo Catholic. He does not himself ordain women, but is tolerant of those who do.

The Archdiocese of Sydney and their associated theological school Moore College is one bright spot within Anglicanism. https://moore.edu.au

The Church of Nigeria is the other faithful witness to historic Anglican faith and practice within the Anglican mainstream.

Thomas, are you able to attend a 39 Articles Confessing church near you? If so, is it ACNA?

 

[yeutter]

I'd be careful judging Anglicanism by The Episcopal Church -- the same might be said if you're surrounded by PC(USA) Presbyterians of what Presbyterianism is. Modern Anglicanism has a very different set of issues than Modern Presbyterianism, but the mainline denominations in both case have fallen hard into Liberalism. For what it's worth, near York County I see a couple of ACNA congregations and some smaller other continuing Anglican bodies. I don't really know what the difference is between the random small Anglican denominations though. I'm happy to just keep up with all of the micro-Presbyterians.

Besides the Reformed Episcopal Church, which has its own lengthy history, there are several other Anglican bodies.
In 1962, when it became evident that the Episcopal Church would not discipline heretical Bishop James Pike, two jurisdictions left the Episcopal Church. The Anglican Orthodox Church was and is a 39 Article confessional Church. The Anglican Orthodox Church has many dioceses and parishes overseas.
She has suffered one schism in recent years, the Orthodox Anglican Church, that is orthodox, but less confessionally tied to the 39 Articles.
The other break from the Episcopal Church in early the 1960s is the Southern Episcopal Church. I think that the Southern Episcopal Church is now in communion with the Orthodox Anglican Church.
In the 1970s the Episcopal Church adopted a heterodox Book of Common Prayer and started ordaining women. This resulted in the formation of several Anglican bodies, most notably the Anglican Catholic Church, the Anglican Province of Christ the King, The Anglican Church of America, The Anglican Province of America, and the Diocese of Holy Cross all of which are Anglo Catholic.
Also at that time the old high church jurisdiction, the United Episcopal Church of North America was formed. The United Episcopal Church is a Thirty Nine Article confessional body.

Thomas, are you able to attend a 39 Articles Confessing church near you? If so, is it ACNA?

Yes, I am a member of a parish of the United Episcopal Church and part of their Church plant in Grand Rapids, Sovereign Grace Anglican Church. https://sovereigngraceanglican.org
We have no formal contact with the ACNA
Many of us are hopeful, that we will have formal contact with CANA, which are the Anglican Church of Nigeria affiliated parishes in North America in the near future.