Are the judicial curses of Deuteronomy 28 still in force upon apostate Jewry?

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Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
These four paragraphs below are excerpted from a new portion of the booklet, A Poet Arises In Israel, in which I deal with the continuance of the specific curses of Deuteronomy 28:15ff.—the judicial sentence—on the (continuing) violators of that covenant. Does anyone think I am wrong to so assert these curses have not been rescinded? Also, in the fourth paragraph, do I adequately handle the basis for all the world—Jew and Gentile—standing guilty in their sin before the holy God? Thanks for any comments and critiques!

I have heard it said, “Ethnic Jewry is no longer under the covenant curses articulated by Moses, since the Old Covenant is abrogated altogether”—this from a Messianic teacher, for it is understood that the curses of the Mosaic Covenant were annulled through the blood of the New Covenant, the Brit Chadashah (cf. Jeremiah 31:31ff.)—And I reply, Abrogated for whom? And in what respect? Is it not abrogated strictly for those who come to Messiah, “the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant” (Hebrews 9:15 NASB), those who have come to the Mediator of that covenant—who is also its High Priest—may receive the New Covenant’s promise of pardon and eternal life? For these and these only it is abrogated. The death required by the violated Mosaic covenant was offered by Messiah—an infinitely precious ransom for the transgressors of it—but those apart from Him have no such redemption, and are still under the specific curses of that covenant.

Can it be thought that the broken-covenant obligations were rescinded by Messiah for those who reject His substitutionary offering for their covenant violations? Those curses levied against transgressing Jews, who also refuse the redemption of Messiah, these were not and are not rescinded. The Levitical system of law, sacrifice, and worship—all that ceremonial typology—was abrogated by the “better covenant” and its infinitely more precious blood, but those of us who spurned both the words of the Prophet who brought redemption (Deut 18:18, 19; Acts 3:22, 23) and the precious blood which covered the sins under that old covenant, these have no relief from the penalties pronounced against them.

We Jews, to whom pertained the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, had received greater light than the nations prior to Messiah’s coming, and that law and that covenant mediated by Moses still binds us—ratified as it was in blood, and blood is required for its breaking . . . that is what a covenant oath is, an oath of life and death. Hence the unspeakable value of the death of Messiah for us, whose blood covers those covenant-breakers who come to Him for mercy, but those who spurn Him are still liable for that broken blood oath.

Indeed, all humankind stands indicted and guilty in their sin before the holy God, as all have transgressed His law—whether that written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, or that of His word written in the psalms and prophets, “the Old Testament in its entirety [being] permeated with the requirements and judgments which are summed up in the ten commandments” (Murray, Romans, p 106). All humankind is under the curse of God for the moral law broken, but we Jews are under the more specific law sealed by blood oath mediated by Moses, and which those who apostatize from the prophetic faith of Israel either delusionally cling to, thinking they have remission of sin without blood, or simply ignore. These realities must be brought out in the open so that my people after the flesh understand our status vis-à-vis God, which is different than the status of Gentiles. We Jews have a different history due to the Mosaic woes we have lived and suffered under many, many centuries—though we are all perishing equally along with the unbelieving Gentiles—and we need to understand from whence we have fallen in order to return. Now that return—since the age of Moses has passed (after all, the temple and its accoutrements, the Aaronic and Levitical genealogical records, etc., all long gone)—needs to be made precisely clear and perfectly laid out so that Yeshua Ha’Mashiach, Jesus of Nazareth, is seen to be the new and eternal High Priest after the order of Melchisedek, the Prophet, and the Everlasting King: the Saviour of the Jews in this time when the breath of the dragon draws near, bloodlust in its eyes, and his chant the same as Islam’s, “First Saturday, then Sunday!”
 

timmopussycat

Puritan Board Junior
These four paragraphs below are excerpted from a new portion of the booklet, A Poet Arises In Israel, in which I deal with the continuance of the specific curses of Deuteronomy 28:15ff.—the judicial sentence—on the (continuing) violators of that covenant. Does anyone think I am wrong to so assert these curses have not been rescinded? Also, in the fourth paragraph, do I adequately handle the basis for all the world—Jew andUOTE] Gentile—standing guilty in their sin before the holy God? Thanks for any comments and critiques!

You are correct to assert that the Deuteronomic curses will still apply to any who try to live by the Sinai covenant. For Christ has said: "Until heaven and earth disappear not one jot nor one tittle of the law shall disappear until all things are accomplished." (Matt 5:18). Since the Jews deny that Christ has accomplished all things, they (and any who try to follow Sinai) remain under the unamended law.
 
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BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
These four paragraphs below are excerpted from a new portion of the booklet, A Poet Arises In Israel, in which I deal with the continuance of the specific curses of Deuteronomy 28:15ff.—the judicial sentence—on the (continuing) violators of that covenant. Does anyone think I am wrong to so assert these curses have not been rescinded? Also, in the fourth paragraph, do I adequately handle the basis for all the world—Jew andUOTE] Gentile—standing guilty in their sin before the holy God? Thanks for any comments and critiques!

You are correct to assert that the Deuteronomic curses will still apply to any who try to live by the Sinai covenant. For Christ has said: "Until heaven and earth disappear not one jot nor one tittle of the law shall disappear until all things are accomplished." (Matt 5:18). Since the Jews deny that Christ has accomplished all things, they remain under the unamended law

What about the blessings?

I don't want to posit a 1:1 logical correspondence between obedience and Deuteronomic blessings, but I think on a general level we may sometimes see it in action. If a nation is openly pagan, which includes the blood sacrifices (abortion) and sexual deviance, we can expect creational curses to fall upon that nation. Especially since paganism and false worship are necessarily dehumanizing.
 

Vox Oculi

Puritan Board Freshman
Romans 1:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,
6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
8:There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[x] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

These would appear to support your conclusion that unsaved Jews are under the Mosaic Law inasmuch as they are religious Jews who believe themselves to be justified by "keeping" the Law.
 

Vox Oculi

Puritan Board Freshman
I don't want to posit a 1:1 logical correspondence between obedience and Deuteronomic blessings, but I think on a general level we may sometimes see it in action. If a nation is openly pagan, which includes the blood sacrifices (abortion) and sexual deviance, we can expect creational curses to fall upon that nation. Especially since paganism and false worship are necessarily dehumanizing.

Going off of Romans' saying that Gentiles trying to live by a law despite not having the Law show that they have the Law written on their hearts, it would seem that in a general sense, the Deuteronomic blessings and curses apply by way of conscience (not covenant) to all Gentiles as well, so there is a sense in which this is applicable to anyone one wants to deem it applicable to--though there are better objects and less likely objects.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. There is no enjoyment of blessing in the covenant sanctions because all have disobeyed, Jew and Gentile. There is only cursing to those who have disobeyed the law. For the believer in Christ, Jew or Gentile, the curse has been borne by the curse-bearer and taken away; the blessing has been freely obtained by Christ, is freely bestowed through the Holy Spirit, and received through faith.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Matthew, this is the full passage:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

Agreed. And then you say, “There is no enjoyment of blessing in the covenant sanctions because all have disobeyed, Jew and Gentile.” But did not David receive blessing from the LORD, and other of the godly remnant in Israel as well?

My main concern here, however, is with the ethnic Jews of our day, both religious and secular. They are indeed under the universal curse on those who do not continue in obedience to the law, which curse is upon all humankind outside of Christ.

My thought is that for the unregenerate Jew there is an additional penalty beside that which is upon the unregenerate Gentile, as the specific Mosaic sanctions already executed—as in the curse of dispersion into the nations where other curses will attend them as well—these sanctions have not been rescinded. Or, put another way, they have refused the gracious abrogation in Messiah of these specific curses, and thus remain under their power. Does not their history since the 70 and 135 AD dispersions began clearly illustrate this?

As the era of Moses is over, and the ethnic, civil nation of Israel disbanded, even in the modern political entity called The State of Israel, those Jews therein actually remain in the diaspora (for the Jewish state is but an illusion of Return from the exile), the true Return being only in Christ, and His then baptizing them into His body by the Spirit, which is the true Israel.

My view is that the Holocaust was a judgment—and a gracious warning to remaining Jewry that God is not finished with them, and they had better seek Him lest a worse judgment come upon them—not only upon the religious with their vain faith, but upon the secular for their having utterly forgotten their God, both of which continue violations warranting judgment.

We—some of us—talk about the conversion of the Jews toward the end of days, and I desire that my writing and publishing of these things, will startle, anger, and shock many, to the end of revisiting and reconsidering the teaching of their Messiah and His apostles, that the elect among them may awaken, flee the city of destruction and head for City Celestial.

Given my eschatological outlook I do see far worse coming upon them, and I would not remain silent as to what I see.
 
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MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
But did not David receive blessing from the LORD, and other of the godly remnant in Israel as well?

Steve,

In Romans 4, David is said to describe this blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

As you know from previous threads, I regard the covenant privileges of the nation of Israel to be abrogated in Christ and inherited by believers in Christ, seeing He took the handwriting of ordinances to the cross, and buried them in the grave. God does not offer distinct privileges and obligations to one particular and exclusive nation under the new testament.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Thanks for your responses, Matthew. You said, “I regard the covenant privileges of the nation of Israel to be abrogated in Christ and inherited by believers in Christ”. With this I agree.

Please note that in Gal 3:10a—“ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse”—it refers to the curse in the present tense.

I don’t see your statements as refuting me when I say that all the unregenerate world is under the judgment of sin, and the curse of the law, and unregenerate Israel under the additional specific Mosaic curses, they both having refused the abrogation of said curse, thus still “are under the curse”.

This is John Gill’s view, from his commentary’s intro to Deuteronomy 28:

In this chapter Moses enlarges on the blessings and the curses which belong, the one to the doers, the other to the transgressors of the law; the blessings, ver. 1-14; the curses, some of which concern individual persons, others the whole nation and body of people, and that both under the former and present dispensations, and which had their fulfilment in their former captivities, and more especially in their present dispersion, v. 15-68 [emphasis added]. (p 119)​

And then on verse 15 he says,

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God,.... As directed, exhorted, and encouraged to, Deuteronomy 28:1, &c.
to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day; both moral and ceremonial:
that all these curses shall come upon thee; from the hand of God, certainly, suddenly, and unawares:
and overtake thee; pursuing after thee, will come up to thee, and seize upon thee, though they may seem to move slowly; see Zechariah 5:3; namely, the curses which follow. Manasseh Ben Israel divides them into two parts, the first from hence to Deuteronomy 28:45; which respects the destruction of the first temple, and the things that went before or related to that; and the second from thence to the end of the chapter, which he thinks refers to the destruction of the second temple, and their present case and circumstances; and it must be owned that for the most part the distinction may seem to hold good; what is prophesied of that should befall the Jews for their disobedience being more remarkably and distinctly fulfilled in the one than in the other; yet there are things in the whole which respect both, or that were fulfilled, some under one dispensation, and some under another, and some that were fulfilled in both; but chiefly and more manifestly at and since their dispersion by the Romans. [emphasis added] (p 121)​

I don’t hang my argument on Gill’s view, I merely state it to show that others think likewise. Here’s another in the same vein from the Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament, by Carl Friedrich Keil and Franz Delitzsch (K&D), [1857-78]

The curses were fulfilled in the time of the Romans in Egypt (vid., Philo in Flacc., and leg. ad Caium), but they were also fulfilled in a horrible manner during the middle ages (vid., Depping, die Juden im Mittelalter); and they are still in course of fulfilment, even though they are frequently less sensibly felt" [emphasis added] (Schultz). (on Deut 28:68, p 446)​

Here are K&D on Deut 30:4-5,

These last words show that the promise neither points directly to the gathering of Israel from dispersion on its ultimate conversion to Christ, nor furnishes any proof that the Jews will then be brought back to Palestine. It is true that even these words have some reference to the final redemption of Israel. This is evident from the curse of dispersion, which cannot be restricted to the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, but includes the Roman dispersion also, in which the nation continues still; and it is still more apparent from the renewal of this promise in Jer 32:37 and other prophetic passages…. [emphasis added]​

Deut 30:6
…The Lord will then circumcise their heart, and the heart of their children (see Deut 10:16), so that they will love Him with all their heart. When Israel should turn with true humility to the Lord, He would be found of them . . . The fulfilment of this promise does not take place all at once. It commenced with small beginnings at the deliverance from the Babylonian exile, and in a still higher degree at the appearance of Christ in the case of all the Israelites who received Him as their Saviour. Since then it has been carried on through all ages in the conversion of individual children of Abraham to Christ; and it will be realized in the future in a still more glorious manner in the nation at large (Rom 11:25.). The words of Moses do not relate to any particular age, but comprehend all times. For Israel has never been hardened and rejected in all its members, although the mass of the nation lives under the curse even to the present day. [emphasis added]​
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I don’t see your statements as refuting me when I say that all the unregenerate world is under the judgment of sin, and the curse of the law, and unregenerate Israel under the additional specific Mosaic curses, they both having refused the abrogation of said curse, thus still “are under the curse”.

Steve, I agree that it doesn't refute the first part. Nor would I desire to refute the truth. All are cursed under the broken covenant of works, as is apparent from Romans 2. But the second part relating to Israel requires something more specific. As a geopolitical nation and people there is no "covenant" entity called Israel. As a covenanted nation the designation "Israel" has already been dealt with according to the covenant curses. It has had its "last days" according to the prophets. The cataclysm of covenantal judgment has issued in the new dispensation, the restoration which was promised after the judgment, the dispensation of the fulness of times, when all things shall be gathered together in one in Christ.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Matthew, some questions: 1) Would you agree with those who hold to the “Puritan hope” of a large conversion of Jews near the end of the age? (I do not “hold” to it, though I hope it.)

2) To what would you attribute the Holocaust by the Nazis? 3) And then, later, the formation of the Jewish state? 4) And prior to both of these, the persecutions and afflictions of Jewry up through the centuries since their dispersion from their homeland?
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
1) Would you agree with those who hold to the “Puritan hope” of a large conversion of Jews near the end of the age? (I do not “hold” to it, though I hope it.)

Steve, Yes; I hold that Israel means Israel uniformly throughout Romans 9-11. In that view "all Israel" means the Jewish people in distinction from the Gentiles. How that works out in history is not given to us to know. But the hope for Israel is salvation in Christ, being grafted back into their own olive tree. The hope is not a return to the old dispensation; the natural branches have been cut off through unbelief.

2) To what would you attribute the Holocaust by the Nazis?

I would be looking for historical factors of a moral, social, political, and economic nature to explain what happened. I don't regard it as being part of some special divine purpose for the Jewish people. As with all nations, these calamities have a providential call to humble oneself under the mighty hand of God. The following questions might be answered in the same way -- we should seek to understand the historical factors.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Matthew, I wholeheartedly agree when you say, “As a geopolitical nation and people there is no ‘covenant’ entity called Israel. As a covenanted nation the designation ‘Israel’ has already been dealt with according to the covenant curses. It has had its ‘last days’ according to the prophets.” I appreciate the precision of your language. And I have long held forth this view.

But as regards scattered Jewry, I see them as a people still reeling from the curse of dispersion and persecution that was executed against them some 19 centuries ago. While they are no longer a covenant people, there appears to be a care—or a plan—of God still for them for the Spirit of Christ to say through Paul,

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? . . . . For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (Romans 11:11,12,15) [emphasis added]​

Now whether this refers to a small remnant of the elect, or of a large number, coming to Christ out of world Jewry, it still does speak to the fact the Lord has them as a people on His mind and heart, though they be no longer under that old covenant.

When you say,

“I would be looking for historical factors of a moral, social, political, and economic nature to explain what happened. I don't regard it as being part of some special divine purpose for the Jewish people. As with all nations, these calamities have a providential call to humble oneself under the mighty hand of God. The following questions might be answered in the same way -- we should seek to understand the historical factors.”​

would we not be wise to include spiritual among the other historical factors, perhaps even at their head? Would it not be appropriate to factor in the hatred of the devil for these who once were the covenanted people—but now vulnerable—of his mortal Enemy?

Thank you for engaging me in my thinking here; I much prefer my friends critique me, even severely, lest I speak in error to those who might have no love for me, and also lest I betray the truth.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Steve, yes, definitely the Lord has a providential care for the Jews, and is providentially calling His elect to Himself. Romans 9-11 shows that in removing the national privilege of the Jews and in calling the Gentiles the Lord has not excluded the Jews from enjoying gospel-privileges. In calling all nations to Himself the Lord calls Israel also, and the Gentile nations shall praise the Lord with His people, Romans 15.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Because I have not been specifically and clearly refuted, I gather I am right when I say,

All unregenerate humankind is under the curse of God for the moral law broken, but unregenerate Jews are also—that is, additionally—under the more specific law sealed by blood and mediated by Moses, and so are under not only the general curse upon lawbreakers but as well the Mosaic curses enumerated in Deuteronomy 28:15ff. upon violators of the Mosaic covenant between God and Israel. Thus we see the history of woe visited upon apostate Jewry throughout the world, even up to our own times—woes above those of other humans as we Jews had received greater light than other nations.

The curses of the Old Covenant were abrogated—along with the covenant generally—for those who came to Messiah / Christ, but those who refuse Him remain in their sins.

I have asked for critique so as to get peer review before publishing widely on this topic. Thanks to those who have already commented!
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Because I have not been specifically and clearly refuted, I gather I am right when I say,

All unregenerate humankind is under the curse of God for the moral law broken, but unregenerate Jews are also—that is, additionally—under the more specific law sealed by blood and mediated by Moses, and so are under not only the general curse upon lawbreakers but as well the Mosaic curses enumerated in Deuteronomy 28:15ff. upon violators of the Mosaic covenant between God and Israel. Thus we see the history of woe visited upon apostate Jewry throughout the world, even up to our own times—woes above those of other humans as we Jews had received greater light than other nations.

Steve, That was the specific point on which I was offering a counter-point. It belongs to the history of salvation rather than the order of salvation. The Jews were privileged as a nation in covenant with God. That covenant entity has suffered the curse. Blessing and restoration are in Christ. We should not interpret providence as if salvation-history were ongoing. It had a culminating point which issued in the Jew-Gentile believing covenant community.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Focusing on the power of the curses

The final metings of the Deuteronomic curses were the destruction of the Jerusalem temple and accompanying slaughter of a great multitude of us Jews in CE 70 and the CE 135 spewing of the people entirely out of the land and scattering us into the nations of the world. The covenant with Israel was annulled, and as a geopolitical nation and people there is no longer a ‘covenant’ entity called Israel. The present State of Israel is not the covenant nation, which should be obvious to those who behold it.

The fierce wrath behind the final cursings of that now expired covenant was so hot it will remain unextinguished on this people till the threshing floor of the world gives up its chaff to the furnace of judgment and fiery indignation, the elect among us—the remnant—having first been culled out by God’s effectual calling.

The linear—i.e., one-dimensional—thinking which views the Deuteronomic revelation of fierce wrath as expended when the force of the curse was fully executed in its final manifestation at the end of the Old Covenant era misses the nature and continuing power of that anger on the continuing sin that drew it forth in the first place.

Deut 28:45, 46 …all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.​
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
These are "covenant" curses are they not? If they are, how does the curse apply to a people whom the curse has cut off from being a covenant people. If they are no longer in that covenant privilege they cannot progressively fall under the covenant curse since they are no longer regarded as being in covenant. The very fact they are not in covenant is testimony that the curse has already passed on them. And God by grace grafts back in the elect among the natural branches which have been cut off. Hence they are under the new covenant, which means the old covenant is "old" and passed away.

The idea of "progressive" fulfilments creates numerous conflicts with the dispensation of the fulness of times.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
You say the wrath was spent when the force of the curse was fully executed in its final manifestation, I say the heat of it continues. It is not "progressive", but unextinguished, and will remain so till its end is accomplished.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
You say the wrath was spent when the force of the curse was fully executed in its final manifestation, I say the heat of it continues. It is not "progressive", but unextinguished, and will remain so till its end is accomplished.

According to Eph. 2 and Col. 2 the handwriting of ordinances is taken away. The ceremonies were a lively enactment of the cursing and blessing covenant. They are dead and buried in Christ. The ceremonies are gone; so is the division created by cursing and blessing. Jew and Gentile are one in Christ. Welcome brother into the family of God! Let's not hear any more of these things which divide the body of Christ.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I am not talking about Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ, but Jews outside it. As you yourself acknowledged in post #12.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I am not talking about Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ, but Jews outside it. As you yourself acknowledged in post #12.

But as Jews they would be under the temporal curses in being cast out of their land even if they are Christians. That cannot be an acceptable consequence. And the non Christians would be bound to the ceremonials as the covenant symbols of their curses, which is contrary to the doctrine of Hebrews concerning hearing Him who speaks from heaven and the greater punishment under the gospel.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The wrath from the final curses executed remaining on this people—the unregenerate Jews—who avail themselves not of Christ’s mercy and protection can only be quenched in the death and resurrection of Christ (if they die in this lost estate, they will also be subject to the eternal wrath). If there are believers in their Messiah among them, and partake of their external circumstances, these are not liable to wrath, but rather the saving presence of their Lord. But genuine believers would likely be expelled, or remove themselves, from the unbelieving community.

In Hebrews 12:25 Paul is speaking to the community of Jewish believers in Christ, saying if those under Moses did not escape punishment, how much more would they be unable to escape punishment if they apostatized from God the Son.

The non-believing Jews—not those Paul is speaking to here (see Heb 2:2, 3 as well)—are under no covenant, but the abiding wrath from the former’s curses still lies heavy upon them, whether they delusionally cling to the abrogated covenant, or simply forget God and all pertaining to Him.
 

lynnie

Puritan Board Graduate
There were so many health benefits to the mosaic law. Semmelweis the Jew, long before Pasteur discovered germ theory, cut mortality in maternity clinics drastcially: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

Jews had to wash themselves after touching dead and infected people. They also had to bury their excrement. The rate of harmful parasites ( probably 100%) in countries where people openly defecate on the ground is horrible.

Ovarian cancer rates and STDs are cut with male circumcision: http://www.webmd.com/cancer/cervica...circumcision-cuts-womens-cervical-cancer-risk

Not to mention much disease is cut or eliminated with biblical morality.

Eating non kosher seafood is now referred to as Mediterranean roulette in some areas, because of the hepatitis risk from shellfish.

Trichinosis is back in the USA pork supply.

All that to say the law does not save you or take you to heaven....but if the mosaic law is healthier and can prevent death and disease, is that a curse still in effect? Or just....science?

I vote to say the OT law is probably way more healthy than we might even know with our limited understanding. Jesus took the curse for us.....but does washing hands prevent infection? You tell me.
 

Vox Oculi

Puritan Board Freshman
I wonder what someone who takes a strict Covenant Theology approach to Scripture would say about whether Jews are punished for violating the covenant?

I think they might say that the covenant is abolished for those who are in Christ, but in force for those who are not. But where does this receive Scriptural support? How can the covenant be said to be meaningfully abolished if it is still in effect? If you can switch covenants by faith, then wouldn't the OT Jews who were unbelievers be free from the covenant since they didn't consider themselves to be under it? And atheist Jews today would not be under it, only the orthodox Jews. So making a division along the lines of faith does not seem to satisfy the question.

Really, this is a challenge to Covenant Theology, in contrast to New Covenant Theology. If the Old Covenant is abolished, why would it be in effect? If it is in effect, why consider it abolished?
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Mr. or Ms. hiding-your-name (which is legit for missionaries in dangerous areas, but strange going incognito here among brethren),

There is no challenge to Covenant Theology (CT) here, just to your lack of understanding it. Part of the Mosaic covenant (MC) curses (Deut 28:15ff) were removal from the land and dispersion into the nations, and this happened, not only during Israel’s history, but especially at the close of the Jewish economy, when the MC was abrogated. The final execution of the curses saw the temple destroyed and the people scattered into the nations. But the wrath in the curses was exceeding hot, and it continues so till it accomplishes its end, which is the destruction of the despisers of Moses’ law and the warning and culling out of the elect from Jewry during the NT church age, which latter I hope to contribute to through writing on these things. The MC is finished, but the wrath behind the curse executed at that finish abides.

If you angrily punch somebody in the head and deliberately break their bones, your feud with them might be done, but the damage of those broken bones may continue for decades (a poor analogy, but you may get the point). With the wrath of God upon the despisers of His law, the curses may have had their final execution, but the wrath sent forth is not quenched, nor will be, till the wicked either turn to their God in repentance (per Deut 30:1-6), or are consumed.

Atheist Jews experience that same wrath, for seeking righteousness through the law, or simply forgetting God, or denying His existence, these all broke that MC, and incurred God’s wrath; also, rejecting Messiah (per Deut 18:18, 19) violated Moses' law. Still, God is merciful to Jewry, as He calls many out of it and to His Christ.

NCT posits a radical discontinuity between the Old Covenant and the New, and is not Reformed despite some claiming it is.

Rev. Winzer has been a big help to me, forcing me to fine-tune my argument so as to comport with the word of God.
 

timmopussycat

Puritan Board Junior
These four paragraphs below are excerpted from a new portion of the booklet, A Poet Arises In Israel, in which I deal with the continuance of the specific curses of Deuteronomy 28:15ff.—the judicial sentence—on the (continuing) violators of that covenant. Does anyone think I am wrong to so assert these curses have not been rescinded? Also, in the fourth paragraph, do I adequately handle the basis for all the world—Jew andUOTE] Gentile—standing guilty in their sin before the holy God? Thanks for any comments and critiques!

You are correct to assert that the Deuteronomic curses will still apply to any who try to live by the Sinai covenant. For Christ has said: "Until heaven and earth disappear not one jot nor one tittle of the law shall disappear until all things are accomplished." (Matt 5:18). Since the Jews deny that Christ has accomplished all things, they remain under the unamended law

What about the blessings?

I don't want to posit a 1:1 logical correspondence between obedience and Deuteronomic blessings, but I think on a general level we may sometimes see it in action. If a nation is openly pagan, which includes the blood sacrifices (abortion) and sexual deviance, we can expect creational curses to fall upon that nation. Especially since paganism and false worship are necessarily dehumanizing.

While God would certainly be just should he allow creational curses to fall on such nations, the difference between our situation and that of the OT Jews is that under Sinai God had covenantally obligated himself to impose those curses.
 
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timmopussycat

Puritan Board Junior
I don’t see your statements as refuting me when I say that all the unregenerate world is under the judgment of sin, and the curse of the law, and unregenerate Israel under the additional specific Mosaic curses, they both having refused the abrogation of said curse, thus still “are under the curse”.

Steve, I agree that it doesn't refute the first part. Nor would I desire to refute the truth. All are cursed under the broken covenant of works, as is apparent from Romans 2. But the second part relating to Israel requires something more specific. As a geopolitical nation and people there is no "covenant" entity called Israel. As a covenanted nation the designation "Israel" has already been dealt with according to the covenant curses. It has had its "last days" according to the prophets. The cataclysm of covenantal judgment has issued in the new dispensation, the restoration which was promised after the judgment, the dispensation of the fulness of times, when all things shall be gathered together in one in Christ.

Missed this post on first reading.

While Israel as a covenant nation is indeed no more, Romans 2:10, 12-24 sets up an opposition between those without the (Mosaic) Law and those still under that Law, respectively Gentiles and Jews. In v. 12, Paul seems to be telling us that those Jews who reject Christ will be judged specifically by that law. And that law tells them (Deut 28:36, 45) that if they don't obey that law then the curses follow and will continue to do so even after the nation is destroyed.
 
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