Authorized (Mark Ward)

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Jeri Tanner said:
Those men all did live and do their work in times of reformation. Reformation winds were blowing long before Scotland and Westminster. The KJV, in God’s providence, was the final translation for those times and the one that stuck.

And again, this is not to say that work isn’t being done now on revision. Perhaps winds of reformation are blowing in certain quarters even now. Perhaps the time is coming for a revision or new translation of the TR “for the churches.”
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There is no biblical warrant demanding this criteria
 
retroGRAD3 said:
I have to continue and protest that this is a real standard or requirement. Unless you can point to a biblical requirement for this "reformation times" only, there is no way to define what these "reformation winds" actually are. Everyone and their dog could have their own opinion on this.
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Not to mention that you can apparently only determine "reformation winds" hundreds of years later, because the guys living during that time certainly wouldn't have known a reformation was coming, and those living during that time and fleeing for their lives wouldn't have characterized it as a reformation, so if they held to that criteria they wouldn't have known it was acceptable to start translating and never would have even started.

Today the gospel is far more widespread and the scriptures read far more, even globally, than in the time of any of those men.

A post hoc criteria for translation is useless if you can't start translating until after you know for sure what period you were living in when you wanted to start.
 
retroGRAD3 said:
I have to continue and protest that this is a real standard or requirement. Unless you can point to a biblical requirement for this "reformation times" only, there is no way to define what these "reformation winds" actually are. Everyone and their dog could have their own opinion on this.
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I think there’s a biblical and church history pattern. 2 Kings 22 is the account of reformation under Josiah, in which under the execution of his orders to restore the breaches in the house of the Lord, the Scriptures are recovered, so to speak. It’s a beautiful and moving account that I think is applicable to all times of refreshing and restoration that the Lord sends. You discern that same pattern in church history. God uses magistrates as nursing fathers and mothers, and he raises up godly ministers of the church, for the good and reformation of his church, and the recovery of the word of God. Not all or many or any? of the magistrates have been the godly Josiah, but I guess he is the ideal pattern.
 
My wife, who is not a native speaker of English, is completely at a loss as to the meaning of 17th century texts like the KJV or the Scottish Psalter. The reading comprehension is basically zero. And while I'm sure she could learn to understand it with enough time and hard work, it's more important to me to use a bible she understands than to train her in 17th century English.
 
www.heritagebooks.org

The Children's King James Bible

The Children’s ‘King James’ Bible brings the majesty and faithfulness of the King James Version to the level of children. The wording of the unsurpassed King James Version has been adjusted to suit a fourth grader’s comprehension. Because it follows the King James Version so closely, The...
www.heritagebooks.org www.heritagebooks.org

Here is a children’s KJV bible. I have browsed it before and I think the changes are minimal. Too bad it’s marketed as a children’s because adults could benefit.

And this also shows that some camps who use the KJV do acknowledge the difficulty that is not so easily solved when it comes to children (asking them to compare translations or use a dictionary).
Again I mention also that TBS has also published word helps.
 
danekristjan said:
By that same standard, we should never encourage lay people to read Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, the Westminster annotations, or really any Puritan commentator. Since these men all introduce and even maintain textual variants different than the readings of the KJV, it will just cause lay people to doubt the Bible if they read Matthew Henry et al. They also should not read any edition of the KJV which has the KJV translator notes since they often put variants in the margin just like the NKJV (so they better toss all their fancy Cambridge, Allan, Oxford and TBS Westminster bibles).
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That's not the same standard - you are speaking of private study, I was speaking of public worship (perhaps I wasn't clear - that is what I was referring to when I mentioned "the average congregant reading in the pew" and "pew Bible"). I would not encourage lay people to read Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, the Westminster annotations, or really any Puritan commentator during public worship. I do not own or use any of the KJV editions with notes you are referring to so I cannot comment on these "fancy" texts.
 
Polanus1561 said:
www.heritagebooks.org

The Children's King James Bible

The Children’s ‘King James’ Bible brings the majesty and faithfulness of the King James Version to the level of children. The wording of the unsurpassed King James Version has been adjusted to suit a fourth grader’s comprehension. Because it follows the King James Version so closely, The...
www.heritagebooks.org www.heritagebooks.org

Here is a children’s KJV bible. I have browsed it before and I think the changes are minimal. Too bad it’s marketed as a children’s because adults could benefit.

And this also shows that some camps who use the KJV do acknowledge the difficulty that is not so easily solved when it comes to children (asking them to compare translations or use a dictionary).
Again I mention also that TBS has also published word helps.
Click to expand...
I was going to mention this earlier. I own a copy, and it is very useful for children.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
I think there’s a biblical and church history pattern. 2 Kings 22 is the account of reformation under Josiah, in which under the execution of his orders to restore the breaches in the house of the Lord, the Scriptures are recovered, so to speak. It’s a beautiful and moving account that I think is applicable to all times of refreshing and restoration that the Lord sends. You discern that same pattern in church history. God uses magistrates as nursing fathers and mothers, and he raises up godly ministers of the church, for the good and reformation of his church, and the recovery of the word of God. Not all or many or any? of the magistrates have been the godly Josiah, but I guess he is the ideal pattern.
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King James I does not fit that pattern. He was a borderline homosexual who militantly opposed the Puritans at almost every point. Your criteria specifically rules him out.
 
RamistThomist said:
King James I does not fit that pattern. He was a borderline homosexual who militantly opposed the Puritans at almost every point. Your criteria specifically rules him out.
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An ideal is an ideal. God uses all sorts of people who don’t fit the ideal to accomplish his purposes (including you and me).
 
Years ago D. A. Carson came to our church to teach at a monthly fraternal of reformed churches. Our preaching pastor shared a story with me as he challenged Carson regarding his use of the NIV. I'll leave it to your imagination how that conversation went, but the message was quite simple regarding the dynamic equivalence philosophy of translation (and the NIV which has its roots in the Christian Reformed Church in the mid-1950s), he said, "a translation is a translation when it is understood in the receptor language." By the way, he is not without boundaries on this issue, see The Limits of Dynamic Equivalence in Bible Translation (1985).
 
RamistThomist said:
Does he use someone who opposes Reformation at every turn? You're moving the goalposts.
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This is what I was talking about in my first post on this topic. It appears to be an ever changing standard. Essentially as long as it supports the KJV on one end, good. Anything on the other end (modern times) never works.
 
The Authorised Version: The Enduring Legacy. This paper was given by Rev Hugh M Cartwright in Glasgow in 30 July 2011, to mark the 400th anniversary of the Authorised Version. In it he made six vital points:

  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation which originated in an environment still conditioned by the Reformation attitude to Scripture and to theology in general.
  • In the Authorised Version we have the translation of an original text on which we can rely.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation made on principles which give us confidence that it accurately reflects the very words which God spoke.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation which in its simplicity and dignity corresponds with the character of the Scriptures as originally written.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation especially suited to memorising and to reading aloud in the context of worship.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation which originated in the church, which provided the English-speaking churches and peoples with a common Bible and which has been much used in the salvation of sinners and edification of saints and in promoting a sense of the authority of Scripture.
 
RamistThomist said:
Does he use someone who opposes Reformation at every turn? You're moving the goalposts.
Click to expand...
He certainly can. If you think I’m moving the goalposts, then you’re not viewing how God works in reforming times in the same way as me. Not all who do things that help the church do them in order to help the church.
 
RamistThomist said:
King James I does not fit that pattern. He was a borderline homosexual who militantly opposed the Puritans at almost every point. Your criteria specifically rules him out.
Click to expand...

RamistThomist said:
King James I does not fit that pattern. He was a borderline homosexual who militantly opposed the Puritans at almost every point. Your criteria specifically rules him out.
Click to expand...

Chick.com: Was King James a homosexual?

Here is the sworn enemy who made the accusation, and why.
www.chick.com www.chick.com
 
alexmacarie said:
The Authorised Version: The Enduring Legacy. This paper was given by Rev Hugh M Cartwright in Glasgow in 30 July 2011, to mark the 400th anniversary of the Authorised Version. In it he made six vital points:

  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation which originated in an environment still conditioned by the Reformation attitude to Scripture and to theology in general.
  • In the Authorised Version we have the translation of an original text on which we can rely.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation made on principles which give us confidence that it accurately reflects the very words which God spoke.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation which in its simplicity and dignity corresponds with the character of the Scriptures as originally written.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation especially suited to memorising and to reading aloud in the context of worship.
  • In the Authorised Version we have a translation which originated in the church, which provided the English-speaking churches and peoples with a common Bible and which has been much used in the salvation of sinners and edification of saints and in promoting a sense of the authority of Scripture.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this. It occurs to me also that the KJV benefited from the protection of the magistrate, and was ordered to be widely printed and distributed and used in all the churches, thus ensuring that common Bible.
 
RamistThomist said:
Does he use someone who opposes Reformation at every turn?
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I'm not a big supporter of James IV/I, but he did not oppose Reformation at every turn - despite his (many) shortcomings, he actually did much to advance the Reformation in Great Britain. This has been documented in other threads on PB (I remember Taylor posting re Chad Van Dixhoorn's work on this issue - perhaps Taylor can post or repost something).
 
Northern Crofter said:
I'm not a big supporter of James IV/I, but he did not oppose Reformation at every turn - despite his (many) shortcomings, he actually did much to advance the Reformation in Great Britain. This has been documented in other threads on PB (I remember Taylor posting re Chad Van Dixhoorn's work on this issue - perhaps Taylor can post or repost something).
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I only remember him saying that James was actually solidly Reformed, but after the AV was published he became an openly wicked individual. If I remember correctly, his actual level of sexual deviancy was fairly severe. I am a little fuzzy here, though.
 
Let us determine once and for all whether the moral integrity of those involved in translation/textual issues are material. James to Wescott/Hort to whoever in future.
 
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