"Biblical" Denial of Spanking

[Ulster Fry]

@Ulster Fry – That is interesting. What do you think would have worked for you if spanking didn't work?

I can't say for sure, and I do think I was a particularly difficult case for various reasons. One way of dealing with aggro is the counter-intuitive method of getting your kids to do (real) martial arts. So boxing, BJJ, judo, wrestling, etc. Send your kids to get beat up by other kids (in a controlled environment), that's a good way to humble anyone. Kids with aggression or anger especially seem to thrive in those environments. Learning how to fight reduces fighting in the real world.

Another thing would just be to build a strong bond between father and son. I think respect can be earned in other ways rather than through physical force. Other warnings. Be extremely careful who your child spends time with outside of the home, and don't be fooled into thinking that a suburban middle-class area is free from bad influences. Don't give kids access to the internet. No smart phones. Limited exposure to screens. Lots of time outside. These are things I am trying with my children and think might have worked for me as well.

 

[TheBoringBaptist]

Americans debate whether it's ok to spank their children while Peruvians have no qualms about striking them anywhere on their body.
There is no wrath like that of a Latina mother (especially if she has a chancla/hair brush/laddle/spoon/flyswatter within reach).

I went to a government school and the majority demographic makeup was Hispanic. I've heard all the stories of Latina mothers. The stories sound very familiar to Haitian parents (my dad is Haitian).

 

[MW]

Learning how to fight reduces fighting in the real world.

It probably isn't "learning how to fight" per se, but taking responsibility for your body by physical discipline. Since they don't do as much in the way of physical exercise as a part of every day life it is good to supplement with other activities.

 

[Ulster Fry]

It probably isn't "learning how to fight" per se, but taking responsibility for your body by physical discipline. Since they don't do as much in the way of physical exercise as a part of every day life it is good to supplement with other activities.

Oh, it's definitely the process of learning how to fight, though of course this includes those things. Joe Rogan has spoken about this as well (this is an area in which he actually does have decent knowledge). Basically, it's twofold. On the one hand, you gain confidence. A lot of bad behaviour and violence is rooted in insecurities. Learning how to fight makes boys and young men more confident in themselves and their ability to handle themselves in bad situations. Boys/young men feel insecure when they feel weak. Bullies also pick on those weaker so that they can prove themselves to be stronger than they really are. Both groups benefit from this sort of healthy confidence.

On the other hand, you quickly learn that getting into fights 'in the real world' is a bad idea. In a controlled environment, with a fully resisting opponent, you learn what it feels like to fight someone else who knows how to fight. You realise how awful it would be to get into an altercation with a fully resisting opponent who knows what he is doing when there are no rules. There is no 'respect the tap' when it is life or death. I think this is a bit like those who have experienced real combat and know what it entails are less likely to want to start a war than the hawkish politicians who treat it like some sort of game.

Basically, unlike the modern mantra that masculinity is bad, we need more masculinity to lessen bad behaviour. I'm convinced I would have benefitted from doing martial arts at a young age more than any other discipline.

Edit for clarification: Please don't interpret my meaning of masculinity as what the red pill movement think it is. Being a pimp is not masculine.

 

[Aretha]

In the Netherlands, spanking and other forms of corporal punishment are not allowed. Since 2007, the law says parents cannot use violence when raising their children. This means hitting or physically punishing children is prohibited.

We decided long before the law was in place that we would not spank our child. If a husband and wife don't hit each other, why would you hit your child? Two of our six kids have autism, and I am very glad that I did not cause him physical pain. For them, "the cause-and-effect relationship" is not always clear, so using physical punishment would have been counterproductive. We learned how to unlearn and teach behavior using a special method, and the strange thing was that it also worked for the other children.

 

[CasualWestminsterEnjoyer]

If a husband and wife don't hit each other, why would you hit your child?

Sister, husbands and wives don't discipline each other at all, by any method. If we allow ourselves to reason in this way, thinking we should do nothing to our children that we would not do to our husbands or wives, we would never discipline them at all, but give them full access to our finances.

 

[Aretha]

Sister, husbands and wives don't discipline each other at all, by any method. If we allow ourselves to reason in this way, thinking we should do nothing to our children that we would not do to our husbands or wives, we would never discipline them at all, but give them full access to our finances.

You're right, it was an extreme example, although I know of Christian circles where a man is allowed to discipline his wife. I think the approach to disciplining children varies greatly across countries and cultures, including within Christian communities.

 

[Aretha]

Well this is an interesting thread. I myself spanked my daughter against my ex-wife's wishes (still don't know what her problem was with it), I did not ever abuse or hurt my child but it didn't feel good for her. That's one of the reasons she gave for leaving me.
I never speak about her except in good ways, to my knowledge, on the internet because it's not fair to her and it's wrong. But our daughter threw fit's around 2 years of age to 3 or 4. I spanked her and my ex-wife wanted to try other things, so I did but they didn't work. Spanking didn't work either but after she left me and my daughter threw maybe a handful of fits at my house and was spanked for it. Then boom she just stopped. Later on my ex apologized to me for the spanking thing because unbeknownst to me our daughter had been throwing fits at her house the entire time after stopping at my house. One day when she was throwing a fit at my ex's house she asked her "how does Daddy handle this at his house" to which our daughter immediately stopped and said "oh I don't throw fits at Daddy's house".
The secret for the success was not in the spanking itself but in the fact that she was disciplined for bad behavior. I think we all know that's what Proverbs is getting at, discipline.
After that I was always joking and very playful, doing characters and voices that she loved,and she couldn't get enough.
But if she needed correction all I had to do is talk calmly in a stern voice and she immediately corrected the behavior. Then I immediately went back to playful and joking voices like nothing had happened.
I used psychology to my advantage.

The best way to get a toddler out of a tantrum is to spray them with cold water from a spray bottle! It’ll give them a fit of giggles and save your hands from getting sore. This is also a helpful tip for calming kids with autism during meltdowns (you know, when they turn blue and start flailing). A little splash can do wonders!

 

[Aretha]

Scripture is clear. There is no weaseling out of its plain meaning. If you want healthy, spiritually and emotionally stable children, spank them. Their soul is at stake.

“Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭23‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I was just wondering—if you're taking the rod in verse 13 literally, do you think verse 1 about putting a knife to your throat if you're given to appetite should be taken literally as well? I’ve been reflecting on that.

 

[jwright82]

The best way to get a toddler out of a tantrum is to spray them with cold water from a spray bottle! It’ll give them a fit of giggles and save your hands from getting sore. This is also a helpful tip for calming kids with autism during meltdowns (you know, when they turn blue and start flailing). A little splash can do wonders!

Like I said whatever works. My daughter figured out that she only got ignored at home. So she only did it in public, like church. But that's a good idea.

 

[Corey Powell]

I have written these statements as a way to wrap my head around a summary of the discussion. please let me know your thoughts.

Of Proverbs - Proverbs make God-established observations about the right order of the world which results in principles that are to be applied as normative, not as a command which lacks exceptions and indicates sin in the omission. However, we are to observe the principles, observations, and instructions about our interaction with the world and apply them to life, including parenting. While it is not a positive law as to necessarily bring sin in its absence, failing to heed the wisdom where possible is to be considered foolish, and rather wisdom heeded.

Of Parental Authority - There are 3 spheres of authority ordained by God: The family, the church, and the government. Each has those who are rightly under its authority and whom it has the responsibility to discipline and punish for the sake of pursuing and increasing godliness and righteousness. The state bears the sword, the church holds the keys, and the family bears the rod. Each is to use this with discernment and wisdom, and the tools are representative of the nature of their authority as well as how for they may go, but not necessarily must go for most cases. The state must repay injustice in a nation, and the ultimate penalty is death. The church must discipline to restore those in their midst, with the ultimate punishment being loosing someone from fellowship and the kingdom. The parent is to train and lead a child in wisdom, instruction, and discipline, and may use the rod to drive out folly when necessary and wise.


I'm aware that this thread is tired. However, this is a very boots-to-the-ground issue for me, and I am having to very seriously consider these things and how to teach them to one who does not agree.

Thank you to all who have contributed!

 

[Grant Van Leuven]

I just read this article on Ligonier. Though it does not speak directly to this thread's topic, I thought it offers wonderful overall guidance to govern all we do with parenting.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/godly-parenting-as-a-witness-to-the-world

"The goal of godly parenting is not just to raise well-behaved children, but to raise children who know, love, and serve the Lord."

 

[LightBringer]

Let me be super clear. Pay attention to exactly what I say. Ready?

ALL of the arguments for so-called “gentle parenting” are smoke and mirrors, absolute subterfuge, they are gentle whispers into the ears of the soft by the Enemy, and using the pretense of “gospel concerns”, he sews rebellion, anarchy, and disorder of every kind.

The proof is simply in the pudding: “gentle parenting” has been an abject failure. Our people are weaker - psychologically, constitutionally, spiritually, relationally, and physically - than at any point in history, simultaneously more easily provoked and less able to be consoled/calmed down, and paradoxically less capable of sound independent decision-making and more resistant to God-ordained authority than ever before.

Reject “gentle parenting” outright, even if it seems to appeal to aspects of your nature.

I can testify to this. I used to buy into the 'gentle parenting' lie and my son is now a spiritual disaster for it. He did not do well in school either.