C. H. Spurgeon on Christ’s eternal generation and divine incomprehensibility

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Reformed Covenanter

Puritanboard Commissioner
... The doctrine of the eternal affiliation of Christ is to be received as an undoubted truth of our holy religion. But as to any explanation of it, no man should venture thereon, for it remaineth among the deep things of God — one of those solemn mysteries indeed, into which the angels dare not look, nor do they desire to pry into it — a mystery which we must not attempt to fathom, for it is utterly beyond the grasp of any finite being. ...

For more, see C. H. Spurgeon on Christ’s eternal generation and divine incomprehensibility.

N.B. Yes, it is the first time that I have quoted a Baptist on the blog. I must be going soft in my old age. :p
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
And it’s from a Christmas sermon :)

Hey, the Lord has many children outside our denominational huddles. Quotes like this keep me real about searching out God.
 

Timotheos

Puritan Board Freshman
... The doctrine of the eternal affiliation of Christ is to be received as an undoubted truth of our holy religion. But as to any explanation of it, no man should venture thereon, for it remaineth among the deep things of God — one of those solemn mysteries indeed, into which the angels dare not look, nor do they desire to pry into it — a mystery which we must not attempt to fathom, for it is utterly beyond the grasp of any finite being. ...

For more, see C. H. Spurgeon on Christ’s eternal generation and divine incomprehensibility.

N.B. Yes, it is the first time that I have quoted a Baptist on the blog. I must be going soft in my old age. :p
Ha!

You're just jealous that the Spurge isn't one of 'yours' ;-)
 

Stephen L Smith

Moderator
Staff member
Eh, we’ve got Owen, despite your efforts
"Carl Trueman, in the fifth of his excellent lectures on John Owen says this (see time index 31:00 through 32:10)

There are strong tendencies in Owen’s thinking on the Covenant of Grace to restrict it just to Christ and his elect. Owen is a paedobaptist. But there is a lot in Owen’s thinking that I think pushes in a Baptistic direction. For Owen, the visible manifestation of the Covenant of Grace is not entirely clearly worked out in terms of children being embraced (as I read him). It’s not an area I have looked at in great detail, but I see tendencies in Owen’s ecclesiology and his understanding of the covenants that push it in a Baptistic direction.
'
This article is by Dr Jim Renihan. He concludes with "tongue in cheek" "And all the Reformed Baptists say, Amen!"

Perhaps it is better to say it is unfortunate Owen was not Presbyterian :p
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
Yeah... I think the SD is closer to the 2LBC than the WCF. And his interp of Heb 8 was moving into our direction of things... but you think what you want ;-)

And @Stephen L Smith

The Almost-Baptist Discovered.

But in all seriousness, no preacher is a denominational gift. He is a gift to the church, period. Ephesians 4, each one is placed in office by Christ to build us up, and ultimately to unify us all in our head.

So, Spurgeon is as much mine as Owen; likewise, Owen is as much the Baptist's as our's.

As Christ says to the Seventy:

Luke 10:16 - "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."
 

Reformed Covenanter

Puritanboard Commissioner
"Carl Trueman, in the fifth of his excellent lectures on John Owen says this (see time index 31:00 through 32:10)

There are strong tendencies in Owen’s thinking on the Covenant of Grace to restrict it just to Christ and his elect. Owen is a paedobaptist. But there is a lot in Owen’s thinking that I think pushes in a Baptistic direction. For Owen, the visible manifestation of the Covenant of Grace is not entirely clearly worked out in terms of children being embraced (as I read him). It’s not an area I have looked at in great detail, but I see tendencies in Owen’s ecclesiology and his understanding of the covenants that push it in a Baptistic direction.

I think the reason why people suspect John Owen of having Baptist tendencies has actually very little to do with John Owen and more to do with serious downgrades of the doctrine of the covenants among the Reformed in more recent times. The Westminster Standards are abundantly clear that the covenant of grace is made with Christ and the elect.

For some reason, however, it has been common for some to claim that the non-elect children of believers are in the covenant of grace rather than merely belonging to its external administration. Our Particular Baptist brethren have been correct in pointing out this error. I have heard that this view came out of the conditional covenantalism of Klaas Schilder. I have never read him myself, nonetheless, I was taught that view by a minister in the RPCI early in my Reformed days, who I later found out claimed to be a follower of Schilder's covenant theology.
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
I think the reason why people suspect John Owen of having Baptist tendencies has actually very little to do with John Owen and more to do with serious downgrades of the doctrine of the covenants among the Reformed in more recent times. The Westminster Standards are abundantly clear that the covenant of grace is made with Christ and the elect.

For some reason, however, it has been common for some to claim that the non-elect children of believers are in the covenant of grace rather than merely belonging to its external administration. Our Particular Baptist brethren have been correct in pointing out this error. I have heard that this view came out of the conditional covenantalism of Klaas Schilder. I have never read him myself, nonetheless, I was taught that view by a minister in the RPCI early in my Reformed days, who I later found out claimed to be a follower of Schilder's covenant theology.

Q. 31. With whom was the covenant of grace made?
A. The covenant of grace was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in him with all the elect as his seed.
 

Reformed Covenanter

Puritanboard Commissioner
Q. 31. With whom was the covenant of grace made?
A. The covenant of grace was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in him with all the elect as his seed.

I recall someone saying that what he called the Bostonian view of the covenant of grace was unconfessional even though the same person admitted that the Larger Catechism uses "Bostonian language." The likelihood that the Westminster divines contradicted themselves in the Confession and Catechisms is not a very high one.
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
I recall someone saying that what he called the Bostonian view of the covenant of grace was unconfessional even though the same person admitted that the Larger Catechism uses "Bostonian language." The likelihood that the Westminster divines contradicted themselves in the Confession and Catechisms is not a very high one.

Could you expand?
 

Reformed Covenanter

Puritanboard Commissioner
Could you expand?

The person in question equated the view that the covenant of grace was made with Christ and the elect was Bostonian, i.e. an oddity of Thomas Boston's, while the Westminster Confession's view was apparently Schilderite, as in the covenant of grace included some of the non-elect. Even so, he conceded that the Larger Catechism used similar language to Boston. The more likely conclusion was that the person in question was reading his own opinions into the Confession, while the view that he dismissed as Bostonian was, in fact, the confessional one.
 

C. M. Sheffield

Puritan Board Senior
For some reason, however, it has been common for some to claim that the non-elect children of believers are in the covenant of grace rather than merely belonging to its external administration.
Yes, and it is this that has made me uncomfortable with the way many paedobaptists talk about their children. A clear understanding of what you're touching on here is of vital importance.
 

Reformed Covenanter

Puritanboard Commissioner
Yes, and it is this that has made me uncomfortable with the way many paedobaptists talk about their children. A clear understanding of what you're touching on here is of vital importance.

I have some of the same concerns myself. Even the term "covenant children", as opposed to the children of believers, often has overly sentimental overtones. If I ever have any children, I will hope that they are among the elect and will treat them as members of the visible church. However, that hope combined with a judgment of charity is not the same as presumptive regeneration, which is very dangerous, conducive to formalism, and destructive of vital religion.
 
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