Charismatic and reformed?

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Originally posted by youthevang
1 Corinthians 13:9-10 proves that prophecy would cease.

But it doesn't give a specific time, that prophecy would cease "at the close of the canon", or "at the end of the apostolic age", etc.

It just says that prophecy would cease "when the perfect comes". I have always understood that to mean the end of the ages, when we are glorified.

But you are saying:

Originally posted by youthevang

Verse 9 and 10 are antithetical parallels. The word "part" is set against the word "perfect." . . . Since the word "part" is antithetical to "perfect" then Paul can't mean perfect as meaning someone is perfect without sin. Instead Paul is meaning "completeness" or "wholeness." So when the "whole/complete/perfect" comes then the "part/partial/incomplete" will be done away with.


Ok . . . so when does this "completeness" or "wholeness" occur?

I would still argue that this doesn't happen until we are glorified. I am not utterly "complete" or "whole" yet.

But on the other hand, perhaps you are not talking about utter ontological completeness and wholeness. Perhaps you are just talking about the completeness and wholeness that a human heart has after it has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. But if this is the case, then Paul's passage makes no sense at all, because he and the Corinthians already had this! And if that were the case, then prophecy, knowledge, etc. would have already ceased prior to Paul's writing of 1 Corinthians, but we know that is not the case (cf. chapters 12 & 14).

Thus, I am having trouble following your argument.

Originally posted by youthevang

Therefore, there are no more new revelations. Let's say someone speaks a word of prophecy in the Netherlands. How is the whole body edified through a prophecy that some of us might not even hear? That is why we have the Scriptures because the Scriptures are suppose to keep us unified and keep us one. The body is not divided and the only way to be of one mind is to know what God is saying to all of us in all generations and that is through His Word.

Wait a minute . . . When someone spoke a word of prophecy in Corinth in 50 A.D., how was the body in Thessalonica edified? You seem to be missing the point that Paul is talking to a local body in Corinth, not to the body of Christ as a whole, universally.


I'm still listening . . .



[Edited on 1-11-2006 by biblelighthouse]
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Chris,

Thank you for your good responses.


I totally agree that the canon is closed. That wasn't where I was trying to go. However, regarding point #2, you said:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Regarding your second point: I cannot dogmatically assert that it all ended with the Apostle John´s last breath. It appears that at the early stages of the New Testament Church, the Apostles were acting under Christ´s Authority to do many miracles, speaking while filled with the Spirit, raising the dead, healing the sick, receiving specific revelations, etc. However, after some time it appears the signs were not as active even while they were still living. Paul was distressed with a personal thorn that God would not take away. He went from raising the dead to recommending wine for Timothy´s stomach illness. Perhaps the Apostolic sign era ended around 70 AD with the "œcoming of the Son of man?" I don´t know. Others more versed in eschatology can add light to that discussion. But it appeared that the "œwind" blew harder at the beginning than the end even among the Apostles.

On the one hand, I agree with you that the "'wind' blew harder at the beginning than the end".

But on the other hand, you said, "I cannot dogmatically assert that it all ended with the Apostle John´s last breath." And that is my point. On the one hand, I have to admit that I have not seen anything that I would call "healing" or "tongues" or "prophecy". But that is an argument from silence & personal experience. I would much prefer an argument from Scripture, but I honestly don't know where to find that argument.


I believe it ended with John, but I cannot dogmatically assert that it ended at his last breath, but probably earlier with the end of his Revelation. I did not mean to imply that more apostolic signs occurred after John, but that they ended even before he died.

Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Just for example, consider these two things that Scripture says happens in these "last days":

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds (Hebrews 1:1-2)

-and-

And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. (Acts 2:17-18; cf. Joel 2:28-29)


Now here's my difficulty:

If the "last days" in Heb. 1 are the same as the "last days" in Acts 2 / Joel 2, then we seem to have the opposite of cessationism. In other words, we can certainly say that God has spoken to us through His Son in these last days (Heb. 1), but Joel 2 and Acts 2 say that the last days *also* contain prophecies, visions, dreams, etc.

On the other hand, if the "last days" in Heb. 1 are supposed to be understood differently than the "last days" of Acts 2 / Joel 2, then how can we demonstrate that from Scripture?

Everything in Joel happened already during the last days. Acts records events for each of Joel´s prophecies.


Originally posted by biblelighthouse
In short, my question is this:
How can we prove from Scripture that God won't send a prophecy to someone now, or a vision to someone now, or cause someone on the mission field to speak in a foreign tongue they never learned? --- Obviously, we believe the canon is closed. But I am talking more about the type of prophecy we see with a non-Apostle in the New Testament, i.e. Agabus (cf. Acts 11:28, 21:10-11). How do we *know* that God won't/doesn't still have Agabus-type people around?

I admit that I've never experienced such a thing. But lots of people in the Old Testament never experienced such a thing, either. When God does wonders, He usually doesn't show them to everyone. Are we just espousing a personal-experience-theology, or are there good Scriptural reasons to believe that prophecy, tongues, visions, dreams, etc. all ended in the first century?


Thank you for helping me think through this question.

We prove from scripture that the final canon is sufficient and complete. If the missionary forgot to bring his Bible then shame on him.

:)
 
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Everything in Joel happened already during the last days. Acts records events for each of Joel´s prophecies.


I agree. But that doesn't answer my question. How can you demonstrate from Scripture that none of these things still can occur today?

Proving that they already happened certainly does not prove that they don't happen anymore!
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Everything in Joel happened already during the last days. Acts records events for each of Joel´s prophecies.


I agree. But that doesn't answer my question. How can you demonstrate from Scripture that none of these things still can occur today?

Proving that they already happened certainly does not prove that they don't happen anymore!

I believe the answer rests in the sufficiency of scripture Jospeh.

Is scripture sufficient? I do hold to the view that the "œperfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 is referring to the completed word of God; however, I also believe that the argument can and has been settled without the use of that disputed interpretation.

If you were to prophecy or see a vision or dream a dream Joseph, could we or could we not add that to scripture, say after Revelation? Why not? Is it from God or not?

Now God does direct our paths and cause all things, so in a sense, yes, philosophically even our most irrelevant , absurd dreams are caused ultimately by God. But is God the author of such? The question is who is the author of such prophecy, visions, dreams? Did God ultimately cause this post? Yes, is He the author? No. Does God author such dreams and visions today? If yes, who determines if this is so? Whatever God authors can be added to scripture. Are the Apostles around to approve prophecies and revelations today? That is important. The Apostolic witness is vital. But then again they didn´t witness the Church canon in the 6th century. Which seems problematic to such an argument
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by non dignus

They are messing with the canon. Even though they don't admit it. If they are getting revelation from God they must write it down and share it with the church.

I'm not Pentecostal. But I also don't agree with this logic used to rebut them.

After all, does Scripture record every revelation God has ever given to men? Does the Bible contain every word God has ever spoken to men? Certainly not! The Bible contains all we need to know for salvation, and the proper worship of God. But it doesn't contain everything He's ever said/revealed to men. Thus the argument above is not valid. Therefore, we should question charistmatics on other grounds.


What are you implying Joseph? The Canon is C L O S E D. God does NOT reveal Himself, specificallly, other than in Holy Scripture. This is why we have a Book, at all.

Ever wonder WHY we (in our place in church history) have a Book rather than a prophet's word; an apostle's word?

Help me here....are you saying God speaks/directs (reveals) things to individuals? (That is Gnosticism, btw.)

Just wondering where you're at.

Robin

:um:
 
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
If you were to prophecy or see a vision or dream a dream Joseph, could we or could we not add that to scripture, say after Revelation? Why not? Is it from God or not?

Chris, I believe this argument is a fallacy.

Just because God speaks a word to somebody, gives them a dream, gives them a prophecy, or gives them a revelation, does NOT mean that the revelation given can be added to Scripture. Thus, your argument doesn't work.

I agree that Scripture is complete. The canon is closed.

But throughout the Bible, from beginning to end, God said things and revealed things that didn't get put into the canon of Scripture. So what does the canon being closed have to do with it?
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
If you were to prophecy or see a vision or dream a dream Joseph, could we or could we not add that to scripture, say after Revelation? Why not? Is it from God or not?

Chris, I believe this argument is a fallacy.

Just because God speaks a word to somebody, gives them a dream, gives them a prophecy, or gives them a revelation, does NOT mean that the revelation given can be added to Scripture. Thus, your argument doesn't work.

I agree that Scripture is complete. The canon is closed.

But throughout the Bible, from beginning to end, God said things and revealed things that didn't get put into the canon of Scripture. So what does the canon being closed have to do with it?

If God speaks then whatever he says is truth without question. If God spoke through me in form of a prophecy or revelation, then I can add such to the Bible with confidence, for whatever is authored by God is suitable for scripture.

Proving that not all of God's words were added to Holy Scripture certainly does not prove that further revelation, visions or dreams from God cannot be added anymore.

If you were to prophecy or see a vision or dream a dream Joseph, could we or could we not add that to scripture, say after Revelation? Why not? Is it from God or not?
 
Originally posted by Robin

What are you implying Joseph?

Robin, I'm looking for a good Scriptural argument for cessationism. But I haven't heard a good argument yet. I'm still listening, though. I would LIKE to be able to tell my pentecostal brother that cessationism is true, and I would LIKE to be able to demonstrate it Biblically. But so far, I don't know how to do that.

Originally posted by Robin

The Canon is C L O S E D.

I agree 100%. But what does that have to do with this discussion?

Originally posted by Robin

God does NOT reveal Himself, specificallly, other than in Holy Scripture. This is why we have a Book, at all.

Please prove this to me from Scripture. I am not bothered by your assertion. But I would like to be able to prove it to my brother. Do you have any Scripture to back this up?

From what I can tell, God has said many things to men, and revealed many things to men, and done many things in front of men, since the beginning of time. And yet MANY of those things God did/said/revealed were never recorded in Scripture. Thus, it is NOT necessarily true that a lack of cessation would keep the canon from being closed. Why can God not continue to do such things after the canon is closed?

Thank you for your patience.
 
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

If God spoke through me in form of a prophecy or revelation, then I can add such to the Bible with confidence, for whatever is authored by God is suitable for scripture.

Not true.

God has said things to people, which He nevertheless did NOT consider suitable for Scripture.

God has done things in front of people, which He nevertheless did NOT consider suitable to record in Scripture.

Thus, you are incorrect to say that "whatever is authored by God is suitable for Scripture." Your assertion is simply untrue, and is disproved by Scripture itself. God has authored many things which He chose NOT to put in the Bible.

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

If you were to prophecy or see a vision or dream a dream Joseph, could we or could we not add that to scripture, say after Revelation? Why not? Is it from God or not?

Nope. We could not add it to the Bible, because the canon is closed.

If it were from God, that would not necessarily make it Scripture. As I already pointed out, God has said many things to man which He didn't record in Scripture, and God has done many wonders in front of men, which He didn't record in Scripture.


God does NOT put everything He authors into Scripture, no matter how true or "revealed from God" a thing is. God has done much which He nevertheless left out of the Bible.


Again, I ask: What does the closing of the canon have to do with this discussion? It is irrelevant.





[Edited on 1-11-2006 by biblelighthouse]
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Everything in Joel happened already during the last days. Acts records events for each of Joel´s prophecies.


I agree. But that doesn't answer my question. How can you demonstrate from Scripture that none of these things still can occur today?

Proving that they already happened certainly does not prove that they don't happen anymore!

Hey, J...

The answer lies in scrutinizing WHY the gifts happened back then! This means one must read (in context) those moments where the miracles of Christ occurred; the wonders of Acts; OT events, Etc. One must ignore their own personal interests and discover what the Lord has done -- to reveal Himself. - to honor His own Name.

Each and every miracle has a precise meaning for THAT moment it happened. And (as we can discover, the more we read) the big picture is Redemptive history --- where all the wonders add up to reveal God's decrees and actions to redeem His people.

Here's a mere excerpt of how the Lord taught/tested the Israelites:

Exodus 15:25-26

There the LORD made for them a statute and a rule, and there he tested them, saying, "If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, your healer ......

But this poor excerpt suffers from lack of space to post the entire chapter here....in fact, the entire book of Exodus! It's like walking into the most fantastic, adventurous, dramatic Peter Jackson movie after one of those big special FX scenes! (The parting of the Red Sea.) (I hate being late to a great movie!) The awe and impact is reduced, even misconstrued when it's separated from the context!

As I said, the answer lies in noticing what God has done for Himself not in what we want for ourselves (powers to be like God) which is what fanaticism is really about -- to be honest.

Think about it.....

:detective: :)

Robin
 
Robin,

So why couldn't God continue to do miracles now, to continue to honor His own Name?

You claim that the Bible teaches cessationism, yet you still have not managed to quote even ONE Scripture to back up your assertion.


Instead of giving me your personal opinion, as you did above, please give me an argument from Scripture.


Where does THE BIBLE say anything about cessationism? Where does Scripture say, that after the death of the last apostle, there will be no more prophecies, dreams, knowledge, tongues, etc.?

I need something stronger than your own opinion if I'm going to convince my pentecostal brother that he's going astray. I need something directly from the Word of God.
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

If God spoke through me in form of a prophecy or revelation, then I can add such to the Bible with confidence, for whatever is authored by God is suitable for scripture.

Not true.

God has said things to people, which He nevertheless did NOT consider suitable for Scripture.

God has done things in front of people, which He nevertheless did NOT consider suitable to record in Scripture.

Thus, you are incorrect to say that "whatever is authored by God is suitable for Scripture." Your assertion is simply untrue, and is disproved by Scripture itself. God has authored many things which He chose NOT to put in the Bible.

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

If you were to prophecy or see a vision or dream a dream Joseph, could we or could we not add that to scripture, say after Revelation? Why not? Is it from God or not?

Nope. We could not add it to the Bible, because the canon is closed.

If it were from God, that would not necessarily make it Scripture. As I already pointed out, God has said many things to man which He didn't record in Scripture, and God has done many wonders in front of men, which He didn't record in Scripture.


God does NOT put everything He authors into Scripture, no matter how true or "revealed from God" a thing is. God has done much which He nevertheless left out of the Bible.


Again, I ask: What does the closing of the canon have to do with this discussion? It is irrelevant.





[Edited on 1-11-2006 by biblelighthouse]

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

So thus the Church is the ultimate authority not Scripture?

You may want to look into Eastern Orthodoxy. Why does the Eastern church have this wrong?
 
Well, J, I know what it's like to have relatives to reason with abou this issue!

I hope I can cover most of your points by saying:

Again...the best answer is to study lots (big chunks) of Text, all the while, aiming for the the meaning of the story. Not pulling-out stuff to apply to us. (O, the errors of prioritizing application!)

One thing to notice: Jesus' miracles are precise. He doesn't heal everybody. He doesn't feed everybody. Why does He choose to heal a blind man? (He is the light of the world) Why a leper? (He makes us clean from sin) Why doesn't He just come out and say "hey, I'm God, ..."?? (actually, he does in ways...) But the point being, Jesus is behaving in a deliberate, measured, authoritative way as he performs and acts in ministry. "So the Scriptures are fulfilled..." as he put it. And He means exactly that. See Luke 24 where he explains this to the Emmaus road disciples who didn't get it. Sometimes Jesus appears "mean" as when he spoke to the woman willing to be a "dog eating the crumbs under the table."

Some things I've noticed form the Text: miracles/healings always happen in the presence of unbelievers; all point to affirming the claims of either Jesus or the disciples or the validity of what God formerly wrote/said. Upshot: things happened to promote the Gospel proclamation. Healings never were subjective or trivial: back pain; tooth fillings -- they were always verifiable, public and again, in the face of unbelief.

See if you can get on this track of thinking, rather than focusing on tongues. The big picture. Go up higher and get an aerial view.

Unfortunately, the cessationist position gets misunderstood a lot. It's not saying God can't do XYZ -- rather it is noticing "what, why and when" God does XYZ.

;)

r.
 
Joseph the question is: is the Bible sufficient or do we need more? Why or why not?

I cannot defend cessationism any other way.
 
Joseph,

my opinions have reasons behind them....to be brief....try this:

Dr. Clark's church website:

http://www.oceansideurc.org/index.php?section=articles

Then scroll and click to:

Acts
Pentecostal Signs
--by Rev. Daniel R. Hyde, Modern Reformation 12:4 (July/August 2003) 4-6.

Here is the Biblical, Reformed view of what Pentecost was/is. Start here. Do not "look for a verse ..." ; look at the overall teaching (analogia fide) the whole-counsel of God, on the matter.

What precisely was the Day of Pentecost about?

:candle:

r.
 
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
Joseph the question is: is the Bible sufficient or do we need more? Why or why not?

Whether we "need" more or not is irrelevant. God is gracious, and often gives us far more than we need. I am still waiting for a Scriptural proof that God doesn't still work miracles. Show me a passage, any passage, that says that.

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

I cannot defend cessationism any other way.

If you can't defend cessationism any other way, then you cannot defend cessationism, because God has done many things which He chose not to put in Scripture . . . thus proving that Scripture was not sufficient for His purposes in those circumstances.
 
Originally posted by Robin
Joseph,

my opinions have reasons behind them....to be brief....try this:

Dr. Clark's church website:

http://www.oceansideurc.org/index.php?section=articles

Then scroll and click to:

Acts
Pentecostal Signs
--by Rev. Daniel R. Hyde, Modern Reformation 12:4 (July/August 2003) 4-6.

Here is the Biblical, Reformed view of what Pentecost was/is. Start here.

Thank you for the link, Robin! I look forward to reading the article. I hope I get some good Scriptural arguments from it.

Originally posted by Robin

What precisely was the Day of Pentecost about?

As far as I can tell, that question is irrelevant to this discussion. God said things to men prior to Pentecost, and still didn't write all of it in Scripture. God said things to men after Pentecost, and still didn't write all of it in Scripture. God did miracles before and after Pentecost, and still didn't write all of them in Scripture. Thus, I don't think the meaning of the day of Pentecost itself is exactly relevant to our discussion.
 
Okay, I was asked to join in the conversation.

Let me first say that I believe the scripture is finished. It is complete. There is nothing to be added to it. Everything is to be evaluated by the Holy scriptures. We are to test the spirits by it. No other words are to be added to scripture.

Peter says that the scriptures are more sure than the voice of the Father in 2 Peter 1:16-19.

Let me ask you a question. Do you all pray for guidance? Do you all pray to understand the will of the Lord in specific areas sometime. Do you expect God to give you wisdom in understanding what to do in these situations. Does God still communicate through situations that arise in our lives.

I believe that God does give wisdom and discernment. In order for him to answer some of our prayers he can communicate to us outside of the scripture. He can also reveal himself through Creation.

The Holy Spirit does bear witness with our spirit somehow. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

In an earlier post someone was bashing healing and saying that if someone can heal they should go to the hospitals and heal. That is totally uncalled for. That isn't what the Apostles and people did. People came to the Apostles and Jesus. I'm not even sure Paul had the gift of healing. And calling Baptists heretics and the ones with the new doctrine. Credo's contend that Paedo's brought in new doctrine. This is still being debated. Baptism in the Early Church

Sounds like we all know for sure what is going on. BTW. I don't believe the scriptures are perfect in and of themselves. Can anyone present a perfect manuscript. The court is still out on that one. We are still debating whether we like the eclectic Alexandrian text or the Majority text. Even the heavens are unclean before the Lord. He is the only Holy Perfect thing.

The tone of this thread is terrible. There are Charismatic Confessional Presbyterian's as well as there are Charismatic Baptists also. So quit slinging mud and look at the issues. We are all looking for God to communicate to us. We are all trying to communicate with Him.

I believe that the Charis of God still can influence people and even possess them to do things that are supernatural. Do I speak in tongues. No. Do I heal. Well maybe not the way that you may be thinking but everytime I share the Gospel and someone is awakened i have been used to heal someone. That is the greater work. It is even more miraculous to me. Do I always use exact scriptures to do it. No. Sometimes I just tell truths and God works. God does speak through us. As Paul mentions that in 2 Corinthians 5:20.... Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Does God use us to give wisdom to others sometimes. Maybe. If he does it won't be anything that goes against the Canon of Scripture. That is for sure. More later.
 
I am a cessationist yet I do believe God helps my poor elderly mom find her keys when she asks Him. I doubt it's a voice from the sky or anything and I don't want to see I & II Keys added to the Bible.

My main issue with Charismatic & Pentecostal theology is my main objection to Revivalism, I am concerned about the tendency to a perfectionistic & triumphalistic view of the Christian life, which doesn't take sin or the Gospel seriously enough, as well as tendencies to mysticism. However, I'm not sure it's fair to paint all Charismatics (particularly the ones subscribing to the doctrines of grace) with that brush. My 2 cents worth.
 
Originally posted by turmeric
My main issue with Charismatic & Pentecostal theology is my main objection to Revivalism, I am concerned about the tendency to a perfectionistic & triumphalistic view of the Christian life, which doesn't take sin or the Gospel seriously enough, as well as tendencies to mysticism. However, I'm not sure it's fair to paint all Charismatics (particularly the ones subscribing to the doctrines of grace) with that brush. My 2 cents worth.

:amen:

I cannot stand revivalism. And I also have a major problem with perfectionism.

But I have still seen no Biblical evidence that God won't still miraculously heal someone, or enable a missionary to speak in a foreign tongue he hasn't learned, etc. --- If I could find such evidence, then great . . . lock up the pentecostal key, and throw it away. But we have no right to dismiss them out of hand, and ignore them just because we don't like them. If we really believe in the Scriptures, then we should be able to go to them and demonstrate clearly that cessationism is true. But so far, I haven't seen any Biblical proof.

I do look forward to reading Robin's article above.


Randy, thank you for your post.
 
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
Joseph, why is the Eastern church wrong on Sola Scriptura?

I am the wrong guy to ask. I don't know what the Eastern Church believes about Sola Scriptura. Nor do I have any idea why that would be relevant to our conversation.
 
Originally posted by Robin
Joseph,

my opinions have reasons behind them....to be brief....try this:

Dr. Clark's church website:

http://www.oceansideurc.org/index.php?section=articles

Then scroll and click to:

Acts
Pentecostal Signs
--by Rev. Daniel R. Hyde, Modern Reformation 12:4 (July/August 2003) 4-6.

Here is the Biblical, Reformed view of what Pentecost was/is. Start here. Do not "look for a verse ..." ; look at the overall teaching (analogia fide) the whole-counsel of God, on the matter.

What precisely was the Day of Pentecost about?

:candle:

r.



Robin,

I read the article you suggested. It was very good. But it was also very elementary, covering things that I have known about Pentecost for quite a while.

I don't see how that article has anything to do with our discussion. I think we are pretty much in agreement about what happened at Pentecost. But so what? Surely you aren't suggesting that God's only display of miracles, healing, prophecy, tongues, knowledge, etc. was at Penecost?



Look, everyone . . . I am not asking for anything difficult:

You are asserting that after the death of the apostles, all of God's miracles ceased . . . no more healing, nor more tongues, no more prophecies, no more knowledge, etc.

I am simply asking you to prove your assertion from Scripture. Why is that such a difficult request?


So far, one person pointed out that the canon is closed. But that is a moot point, and irrelevant to this discussion, as I have clearly pointed out from Scripture. The canon being closed has nothing to do with the cessationism argument.

Also, someone has pointed me to an article with an elementary (though very good) overview of what happened at Pentecost. But this too is irrelevant. We can totally take Pentecost out of the picture, and the cessationism question would still remain unanswered.


Come on . . . simply show me the Scriptures demonstrating cessationism. This should be no more difficult that showing the Biblical warrant for the doctrine of the Trinity, or for infant baptism. I don't need a solitary prooftext. A cogent argument involving a number of related texts would be perfectly fine with me.
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by Robin
Joseph,
What is/was the Day of Pentecost?

As far as I can tell, that question is irrelevant to this discussion. ..... Thus, I don't think the meaning of the day of Pentecost itself is exactly relevant to our discussion.

No offense, my brother....but, you're way off on this. (!)

If you're willing....think again, OK? This is precisely the direction to the answer about cessationism.

O.....Dr. Clark (whistling) :sing: Please tell us WHY understanding the Day of Pentecost affects our understanding of cessationism.

:sing: :sing: :sing:

r.

(J, Danny's article will shed the light...on truth already revealed in the Text.)

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by Robin]
 
Originally posted by Robin

No offense, my brother....

None taken.

Originally posted by Robin

If you're willing....think again, OK? This is precisely the direction to the answer about cessationism.

Wonderful. If this is so clear, then you should have no problem at all with explaining what that article has to do with cessationism. Why don't you do so?


Originally posted by Robin

O.....Dr. Clark (whistling) :sing: Please tell us WHY understanding the Day of Pentecost affects our understanding of cessationism.

:amen:

Now THERE is something we can agree on. I would love to hear Scriptural reasons for cessationism from Dr. Clark, or ANYBODY, for that matter.

Like I said, I can't tell my pentecostal younger brother that he is wrong because Robin "thought about it" and decided it was wrong, or because Chris has a really strong opinion on the subject.

I'm just a little frustrated that this thread has gone on this long without anyone bothering to point out cessationism in the Bible. If it is a correct doctrine, then it should be founded on the Bible, not on loud opinions.

I am still waiting for somebody to demonstrate cessationism from the Scriptures.
 
I'm just a little frustrated that this thread has gone on this long without anyone bothering to point out cessationism in the Bible. If it is a correct doctrine, then it should be founded on the Bible, not on loud opinions.

I am still waiting for somebody to demonstrate cessationism from the Scriptures.

And therein lies the crux. It is not a clear teaching. It is an inference.
 
I'm certainly not Dr. Clark and I hope to hear from him on this as well but I will offer what I have learned of the subject.

I think part of the disconnect on the thread has been on the use of the term miracle.

Many are careful to distinguish between the redemptive-historical use of signs and wonders (Miracles with a capital M) and special acts of Providence where God might supernaturally heal someone as an answer to prayer (miracles with a little m). I know John Frame has a problem with some of the hard lines that some draw between normal and special acts of Providence but I can't articulate them as well as he, nor will I try.

It is ironic that I was catching up on my Tape of the Month messages from Ligonier Ministries this week and R.C. Sproul was lecturing on the issue of miracles so I have some information at my fingertips that I have read and learned over a few years on the subject.

Joseph - If you're looking for the "killer verse" that is going to state "charismatic gifts have ceased" then there is no such verse. If you're speaking with charismatic or pentecostals there are deeper issues than the cessation of gifts to deal with. The discussion of gifts is a bit downstream. I'll try and move from my understanding of "Miracles" (capital M) and then discuss neo-Pentecostalism and its erroneous understanding of Pentecost and Acts with respect to charismatic gifts.

First, signs and wonders are clustered around certain epochs in Redemptive History. If you charted miracles on a timeline you will see miracles clustered around Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Jesus and the Apostles.

Moses is called by God to lead His people out of bondage but will he merely walk up to Pharaoh and state "Let my people go"? Will the people just follow him out of the desert?
"Yeah right Moses. God told you to leave here on consequence of death at the hands of the Egyptians..."
Then Moses answered, "But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, 'The LORD did not appear to you.'" Ex 4:1
A reasonable question. The answer: SIGNS - making his hand leprous, turning his staff into a snake, water into blood, and, eventually, the plagues.

Moses represents the epoch of the Law. His authority is confirmed by signs and wonders. He is confirmed by Miracles with a capital M. His deputy, Joshua, is confirmed as successor by lesser wonders as he leads the people to capture the Promised Land.

Signs and wonders are then virtually silent for centuries.

Elijah bursts on the scene. Elijah represents the epoch of the Prophets. Through the Word spoken by him a 3 year draught ensues. A widow's oil and flour do not run out. He raises the dead. He calls down fire on the prophets of Baal. His deputy Elisha performs Miracles.

Signs and wonders are then virtually silent for centuries.

Christ comes and His ministry is literally ablaze with Miracles. Jesus confirms His ministry to John:
(Matthew 11:2-5) Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, "Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?"
And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

Nicodemus says to Christ:
(John 3:2) This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."

Christ's ministry was confirmed by His Miracles. His chief miracle, His resurrection, authenticated Him as the Son of God:
(Romans 1:4) and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Miracles (with a capital M) continue with the Apostles as foundation layers. It is their foundational teaching that completes the Word of God.

The question is now: Have signs and wonders ceased?

Well nobody ever says so but the question, with respect to the type of signs and wonders that I'm talking about, would be this: To what end?

Signs and wonders have a definite purpose in Scripture of the type I'm talking about. If a person has been given a gift of healing and is correlating their gift to the miraculous power that Christ or the Apostles or Prophets had then I would have a problem with that correlation. Christ and the Apostles could have healed everybody they touched but there were specific reasons for the healings. Certainly I do not want to downplay the mercy and compassion that attended them but chief among the reasons was to authenticate authority.

Thus, the question of cessation has less to do with the question: "Does God still heal?" and more with the question "Are there Miracle workers?"

Reformed theology does not teach that God doesn't answer prayer or even still heal in what we might call supernatural ways. There are two issues with this though. First, I don't really believe He endows healers that channel healing power from Him. There just isn't a warrant for that idea from Scripture independent of any "meaning" behind why God is moving in such a way. Secondly, if you or I never witness a Miracle again in our entire lifetime, do we have sufficient reason to trust God based on what He has already proven through whom He has authenticated? Absolutely!

The issue is one of pattern. Signs and wonders are not continuous in Redemptive History and have specific purposes and accompany epochs. Nowhere are we given reason to expect that such Miracle working will just be given arbitrarily to people to work wonders apart from any redemptive historical purpose. That's the closest thing I can do to proving to you that Miracles (with a capital M) have ceased. I'm certain others could do a far better job. I do believe, however, that a person who claims that such things are normative today because they're normative in Exodus, Kings, the Gospel, and Acts have more work to do to show that modern day signs, wonders, or displays of charismatic gifts have little more purpose than making people happy.

My fingers are getting tired but I do want to proceed to the issue of neo-Pentecostalism and their misunderstanding with respect to charismatic gifts. It is very reductionistic but my time is short.

Neo-Pentecostals look at the narrative history presented in Acts and form doctrinal conclusions based on what they witness in Acts beginning with Pentecost:

Ah, these disciple of Christ had been baptized but now they are sitting in a room and are baptized with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.

Peter goes to Cornelius' house:

As Peter is preaching Cornelius and his household begin speaking in tongues.

Tongue speaking then occurs, en masse, among Samaritan believers and later Gentile believers in Acts.

Conclusion: Charismatic gifts are normative and there is a second baptism of the Holy Spirit. We have four instances of this.

That's not the interpretation given for the display of gifts in Acts itself:
(Acts 11:17) If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
In other words, everybody receives the same gift so God could wake everybody up and say "...yeah they're one of you!!" There is neither Jew nor Greek.

Looking at narratives to form a teaching, as the neo-Pentecostals do, leads to a false conclusion from the pattern they detect. Narratives are not always the best place to form doctrine as compared to didactic teaching.

So much of this debate becomes charged with the "...you're quenching the Spirit..." claim by those who think we're tying God's hands. In the end my purpose was to show:

1. That Miracles served a particular purpose in Scripture and we ought to be careful in looking at what an Apostle did and saying "Yeah that's normal so we should expect that..."

2. God answers prayer in exceptional and "ordinary" ways as the one who governs and upholds all things. It is not exceptional for Him but out of the ordinary for us when a cancer disappears. We can seek God in prayer for these special acts of providence and healing and glorify Him when He answers it. I would not call it a miracle only because I prefer to protect the status given to signs and wonders as in 1.

3. If God never displays a sign or wonder in my life I have sufficient reason to trust and obey that which has already been authenticated. I believe the ultimate Miracle - the resurrection that confirmed Christ as the Son of God!

4. Much of charismatic or pentecostal theology is formed on faulty assumptions based on narrative and inference rather than didactic teaching.

5. If tongues or prophecy or other extraordinary gifts exist then I have not witnessed them truly exercised. I used to be a charismatic Christian. I believe God has the power to do such things but I also believe that gifts exist for an edifying purpose and I've never seen them exercised in a way that edifies. If somebody can give me Scriptural reasons to believe what purpose tongue-speaking or Prophesying (with a capital P though I believe that preaching is a form of it I'm talking about the "God's going to do this..." variety) would have in this Church epoch.

In Christ,

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by SemperFideles]
 
Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
Originally posted by James McGrail
I have run across a group in the last couple of years (I can't remember the name), that teaches clear calvinistic doctrine, and charismatic theology.
My question: Are charismania and calvinism mutually exclusive?

It depends on what you mean by Calvinism. If it means "predestination," then, no they're not incompatible. There is a growing movement of predestinarian charismatics. I think this may describe C J Maheny and certainly describes Wayne Grudem and others.

I, for one, and Guido de Bres (the primary author of the Belgic Confession, 1561) for another, would not be happy with such a truncated definition of "Reformed" or "Calvinist."

There is much more to being Reformed/Calvinist than predestination. Augustine, Gottschalk, Aquinas, and many others were predestinarian without being "Calvinist." Lutherans are predestinarians (they confess an unconditional election that can, nevertheless, be lost).

If we allow the Reformed confessions and confessional theologians to define "Reformed/Calvinist" then, no, anyone who claims to have direct revelations from God or to practice apostolic gifts is not Reformed.

Much of what is today called "Charismatic" was denounced in the 16th century as Anabaptist fanaticism:

There be some who have daily some new command from God, to make known unto their brethren and strangers. Some are rapt into an extasie, and have their visage and countenance changed, lying upon the ground certain hours. Some Tremble and Quake for two or three hours together; after that, when they are come unto themselves, they prophecie and speak strange things, as if they had been in another world, or as if they had fallen from out of heaven: and they account to have that in common with the Apostle, when he was taken up into the third heaven.

...As for that which they tax the Ministers, to be Ministers of the dead letter, one may plainly see the Lords taking vengeance upon the outrage offered unto his holy Word; smiting them with the spirit of giddiness, for having despised the true and only means of coming unto God, which is the Scripture and the Word of God. In the passage of the Corinthians where Paul saith, The letter killeth, and the Spirit quickeneth; let any closely consider, against whom the Apostle disputeth, and they will understand his drift. It is very evident that Paul in this place, had to do with false Apostles, who preached and extolled the Law without Christ, and caused the people to recoil from Salvation purchased by Christ, and the grace of the new Covenant, whereunto the Lord had promised to write his Law in the heart of the faithful: the Law then being separated from Christ, as a body without a soul; and nothing cometh from it but death, to those that are under it: it doth nothing but beat and strike the ears, without any quickening the soul, until by faith we are sent from it unto Christ, as from the Usher unto the Master; and then the Law will be found such as David sings it, The Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making Wise the simple: the commandments of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart, & c. Thus must we understand how it is said, The Letter killeth: Paul called the Law, The killing Letter, and saith, The Spirit quickeneth, i.e., The Ministry of the Gospel, which he opposeth unto the naked Law; and he himself calleth his preaching The Ministry of the Spirit.

I'm glad folks are re-discovering the doctrine of predestination. Let's pray they rediscover the rest of our soteriology, our Christology and our covenant theology (including the notion of canon and revelation!) etc.

rsc

A BIG :ditto: :ditto:
 
There are two recorded instances of extraordinary Spirit baptism with accompanying evidences of extrordinary endowment in the NT. Acts 2:1-4 (Jews inauguration), and 10:44-46 accompanied by gospel preaching (Gentiles inauguration). Beside these two instances, there are no other examples of extraordinary Spirit baptism such as comes apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles.

The remainder of instances (e.g. 8:17; 19:6) included preaching the gospel and the laying on of hands by the apostles (not even Phillip could do it). The power to bestow Jesus' gifts (Eph. 4:8) was a power delegated only to apostles (see 8:19ff). Likewise, it was the apostles' duty as eyewitnesses (Acts 1:8) to the Christ's majesty and teaching to superintend the inscripturation of Jesus' Revelation--both his person and doctrine. But until that word was perfected (complete), prophets were necessary and valuable, primarily to teach NT doctrine when as yet it was not all written down. In other words, they fit the need of the hour.

Questions:
Has the Holy Spirit been poured out in the same way, inaugurally, again, any time in the last 2000 years? No.

Have there been any additional apostles? No.

Could anyone but an apostle perform the "signs of an apostle", except those to whom the apostles had been permitted to share the gifts? No.

Could the power to "grant the Holy Spirit" (i.e. the signs) be given to any (see example of Simon Magus above). No, the gift could be shared, but not the power/authorization to share the gift. So for example, Corinthian tongue-speakers couldn't give anyone else the gift.


No more apostles = no more extraordinary gifts. The church doesn't need another founding. We do not need either one, so we don't have either one.


Anomalies, or non-patterned occurences--whatever may be made of them, and they have been discussed here on the PB before--they cannot overthrow a Scriptural doctrine if it is true. No one denies God can work miracles, or do what he pleases. The issue is: What has he told us is his rule? On what do we base our doctrine? If something happens that we can't understand or doesn't fit our expectations, we don't simply throw up our hands and throw out our doctrine, especially if it is essentially correct. The explanation could be something we haven't considered, and has no impact at all on our doctrine, although we thought it possibly related.

God works when, where, and how he pleases. He has also told us what we can expect, and so we shouldn't look expctantly for other things, or lurch for the "miraculous" or "prophetic" explanation as soon as something happens we have a hard time explaining according to our current understanding.

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by Contra_Mundum]
 
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