Charismaticism and Montanism

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marcorex

Puritan Board Freshman
I would like to ask the opinion of the brethren regarding the issue of Charismatic teaching and the old Montanist heresy. There is a growing opinion among "Evangelicals" in Italy that Montanism was a misunderstood revival movement. This is also occasioned by the fact that the Church of Rome has changed her position on Montanism with the growth of catholic Renewal (Modern RC Charismatic movement) within her ranks. I would appreciate any articles which discuss this topic which could be freely translated and distributed by my friends in Italy. Articles should not be too long. There are few Reformed people in Italy but they have been introduced to a Reformed position by reading Grudem in Italian. Hopefully soon Berkhof would be available in Italian. There is no much Reformed literature in Italian,
 
I would like to ask the opinion of the brethren regarding the issue of Charismatic teaching and the old Montanist heresy. There is a growing opinion among "Evangelicals" in Italy that Montanism was a misunderstood revival movement. This is also occasioned by the fact that the Church of Rome has changed her position on Montanism with the growth of catholic Renewal (Modern RC Charismatic movement) within her ranks. I would appreciate any articles which discuss this topic which could be freely translated and distributed by my friends in Italy. Articles should not be too long. There are few Reformed people in Italy but they have been introduced to a Reformed position by reading Grudem in Italian. Hopefully soon Berkhof would be available in Italian. There is no much Reformed literature in Italian,
I don't think Montanism is that misunderstood. Rather, the scholarly consensus seems to say Tertullian wasn't an extreme Montanist. Charismaticism has errors, but I don't know if I would lump it together with Montanism.
 
I have long believed that Pentecostalism should be equated with the Montanist heresy. Montanists allowed women to hold leadership roles in the Church and to prophesy.
The movement was founded by Montanus, a self-proclaimed prophet, and his two female prophetesses, Priscilla, and Maximilla.
Montanism allowed women to prophesy and hold leadership positions, including the office of the keys, which was unusual for the early church.
Montanus and his followers principally, two women, Prisca and Maximilla, held to a view of the prophetic gift that was a departure from the apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, insofar as they practiced what can only be called “ecstatic” prophecy in which the speaker seems to have either lost consciousness, or fell into a trance-like state, or perhaps was but a passive instrument through which the Spirit might speak.
Contrary to the Montanists; in 1 Corinthians 14:29-33 Saint Paul asserts that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.”

Here is a treasure trove of good Reformed material in Italian
 
Thank you for the link.
[automerge]1743770129[/automerge]
I have long believed that Pentecostalism should be equated with the Montanist heresy. Montanists allowed women to hold leadership roles in the Church and to prophesy.
The movement was founded by Montanus, a self-proclaimed prophet, and his two female prophetesses, Priscilla, and Maximilla.
Montanism allowed women to prophesy and hold leadership positions, including the office of the keys, which was unusual for the early church.
Montanus and his followers principally, two women, Prisca and Maximilla, held to a view of the prophetic gift that was a departure from the apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, insofar as they practiced what can only be called “ecstatic” prophecy in which the speaker seems to have either lost consciousness, or fell into a trance-like state, or perhaps was but a passive instrument through which the Spirit might speak.
Contrary to the Montanists; in 1 Corinthians 14:29-33 Saint Paul asserts that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.”

Here is a treasure trove of good Reformed material in Italian
thank you
[automerge]1743770258[/automerge]
I don't think Montanism is that misunderstood. Rather, the scholarly consensus seems to say Tertullian wasn't an extreme Montanist. Charismaticism has errors, but I don't know if I would lump it together with Montanism.
Could you kindly elucidate on why Montanism could not be associated with modern charismatic movements?
 
Thank you for the link.
[automerge]1743770129[/automerge]

thank you
[automerge]1743770258[/automerge]

Could you kindly elucidate on why Montanism could not be associated with modern charismatic movements?
Official early montanists denied the Trinity. Except for oneness Pentecostals, charismatics don’t. I have huge problems with grudem but he doesn’t deny trinity
 
Official early montanists denied the Trinity. Except for oneness Pentecostals, charismatics don’t. I have huge problems with grudem but he doesn’t deny trinity
Thank you for your kind reply. However could not a distortion of the person and work of the Holy Spirit among the wide charismatic field such a Branham's followers and the R.C. Charismatic movement destroys the concept of Trinity? Roman Catholics believe in the Trinity but Mary is a Co-reedemer and Mother of the Church. Mormons believe in the Trinity but Lucifer is also the brother of Christ.
 
This may be a mistaken perspective on my part but there seems to be a huge difference between the continuationism of Grudem and the charismaticism of Pentecostals - whom even among the most historically evangelical of them (eg. Assemblies of God) is now giving licenses to preach to women.

As a matter of fact, the AG now heavily encourages all pastors' wives to seek active ministry and opens licensing and/or ordination to pastors' wives.

If I recall, certain presbyteries even encourage it so heavily that it seems practically mandated (NJ District seems to run that way).

By God's grace, most wives who go ahead and take the exam are simply doing so out of a conscience of submission to the denomination in which their husband pastors and (so far) there is not widespread woman-led ministry in the historically evangelical churches, but I suspect the door has been cracked and this will not be sustained over time.
 
Thank you for your kind reply. However could not a distortion of the person and work of the Holy Spirit among the wide charismatic field such a Branham's followers and the R.C. Charismatic movement destroys the concept of Trinity? Roman Catholics believe in the Trinity but Mary is a Co-reedemer and Mother of the Church. Mormons believe in the Trinity but Lucifer is also the brother of Christ.
Formally, no. Practically, maybe.

Mormons specifically deny the co-eternality of Jesus with the Father (and maybe the Father's eternality, too). The contents of their claim "Trinity" is definitionally different. And while Mariolatry is wrong, that doesn't enter into the formal contents of their definition.

And even some cessationists believe that Jesus has a lesser glory and authority of the Father (Ware, Wilson, ESS), but I grant that they still believe in the Trinity, if only a bad version of it.
 
Thank you for your reply. My question is based on observations on the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement in my own native country. We have basically every American and Latin American denomination from that family of churches with all the distortions you can imagine. Recently in Sicily a "charismatic" husband murdered his whole family because they were demon possessed. Romanism is full of pagan notions, not just the very evident such as image worship, saints (which replaced many old deities worshipped in the Roman Empire and pre-dating Classical Rome in some cases) and sacramentals (the use of sacred objects to increase the faith) and relics, but also in some key concepts regarding the doctrine of Transubstantiation which can be traced the the Orphic mysteries of Dyoniosius ( I did not learn that from YouTube but at the Liceo Classico Vittorio Emanuele II of Palermo, originally the second oldest Jesuit College of Italy founded in 1549 as part of my classical education). Glossolalia was part of mysteric religion as well as the worship of Aesculapius. The superstitious popular culture of Italy, rooted in pagan conceptualism, provides a highly fertile ground for this kind of charismatic/pentecostal worship and teachings. If the docrine of the Trinity is the focus of our Christian faith, and it is and not just that, to have it in a distorted form in its application, though the formulation can be difficult for people with poor Biblical and theological knowledge, can be extremely detrimental to the understanding of the Gospel, the spiritual growth of the believers, both individually and congregationally, and hence affects the worship of the Triune God. I do not despise or hate pentecostals or charimatics, but I find difficult to have a mininum lower denominator. I am saying taht none of them are true believers, but I ask teh question why are we leaving in their ignorance. It appears to me that there is a tendency among modern Evangelicals, and sadly even among some Reformed people, to have the attitude of the angels n the anedocte of the evangelical dying and as he is lead by the angels to the pearly gates of heaven, he hears the sound of tormented souls (Dante Inferno style) below in hell, and he stops and asks the angels to help him to rescue them, only to be told the get on with his walk. Until he is about to reach the gates of heaven and he says to the angels that he would not enter unless they help him to save some souls out of hell...only to be told :" Mind your own business, get in. Dont you understand? It is the Roman Catholic hell...that is the way they want it."
We have a growing "mind your own business - that is the way they want it" attitude. Wayne Grudem and many so called Reformed Continuationist have taken this attitude because they think they can introduce Reformed teaching within Pentecostalism/Charismaticism allowing the charismatic gifts to stay. But Reformed teachings cannot have a separate and contradictory Pneumatology. The purpose of old teachers was to elevate the student to the subject not to lower the subject to the student. It took time, teaching, explanation, simplification and so on. It is a burdensome resposnability to leave people where they are at because it is they way they want it. No, it is they way they had been wrongly taught for so long. It is no love nor kindness to leave people in error. We may have to learn "different approaches" but the Bible teaches gives us the principles with some we have to be gentle with others we have to be tough. We need to have theGod given wisdom to assess each situation we encounter and apply the appropriate approach. You see in the Italian Evangelical scenery we have a predominant Pentecostal presence, followed by the Liberal Waldensian, Methodists and Baptist Union, followed by dispensationalists arminians such as the brethren (both Strict and Open), followed by a continuationist Reformed Baptist presence, followed by a small handfuls of poorly taught Reformed people. Those who are fortunate enough to read English have access to good literature, but otherwise the "reformed resources" in Italian are very scarce. I hope that soon the Diodati Institute would be able to print the works of Louis Berkhof. A team of volunteers have translated Berkhof, Hodge, Gill. publishing houses do not want to invest on such work as Italian is a minority language and so not financially viable.
Please pray for Italy.
 
Thank you for your reply. My question is based on observations on the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement in my own native country. We have basically every American and Latin American denomination from that family of churches with all the distortions you can imagine. Recently in Sicily a "charismatic" husband murdered his whole family because they were demon possessed. Romanism is full of pagan notions, not just the very evident such as image worship, saints (which replaced many old deities worshipped in the Roman Empire and pre-dating Classical Rome in some cases) and sacramentals (the use of sacred objects to increase the faith) and relics, but also in some key concepts regarding the doctrine of Transubstantiation which can be traced the the Orphic mysteries of Dyoniosius ( I did not learn that from YouTube but at the Liceo Classico Vittorio Emanuele II of Palermo, originally the second oldest Jesuit College of Italy founded in 1549 as part of my classical education). Glossolalia was part of mysteric religion as well as the worship of Aesculapius. The superstitious popular culture of Italy, rooted in pagan conceptualism, provides a highly fertile ground for this kind of charismatic/pentecostal worship and teachings. If the docrine of the Trinity is the focus of our Christian faith, and it is and not just that, to have it in a distorted form in its application, though the formulation can be difficult for people with poor Biblical and theological knowledge, can be extremely detrimental to the understanding of the Gospel, the spiritual growth of the believers, both individually and congregationally, and hence affects the worship of the Triune God. I do not despise or hate pentecostals or charimatics, but I find difficult to have a mininum lower denominator. I am saying taht none of them are true believers, but I ask teh question why are we leaving in their ignorance. It appears to me that there is a tendency among modern Evangelicals, and sadly even among some Reformed people, to have the attitude of the angels n the anedocte of the evangelical dying and as he is lead by the angels to the pearly gates of heaven, he hears the sound of tormented souls (Dante Inferno style) below in hell, and he stops and asks the angels to help him to rescue them, only to be told the get on with his walk. Until he is about to reach the gates of heaven and he says to the angels that he would not enter unless they help him to save some souls out of hell...only to be told :" Mind your own business, get in. Dont you understand? It is the Roman Catholic hell...that is the way they want it."
We have a growing "mind your own business - that is the way they want it" attitude. Wayne Grudem and many so called Reformed Continuationist have taken this attitude because they think they can introduce Reformed teaching within Pentecostalism/Charismaticism allowing the charismatic gifts to stay. But Reformed teachings cannot have a separate and contradictory Pneumatology. The purpose of old teachers was to elevate the student to the subject not to lower the subject to the student. It took time, teaching, explanation, simplification and so on. It is a burdensome resposnability to leave people where they are at because it is they way they want it. No, it is they way they had been wrongly taught for so long. It is no love nor kindness to leave people in error. We may have to learn "different approaches" but the Bible teaches gives us the principles with some we have to be gentle with others we have to be tough. We need to have theGod given wisdom to assess each situation we encounter and apply the appropriate approach. You see in the Italian Evangelical scenery we have a predominant Pentecostal presence, followed by the Liberal Waldensian, Methodists and Baptist Union, followed by dispensationalists arminians such as the brethren (both Strict and Open), followed by a continuationist Reformed Baptist presence, followed by a small handfuls of poorly taught Reformed people. Those who are fortunate enough to read English have access to good literature, but otherwise the "reformed resources" in Italian are very scarce. I hope that soon the Diodati Institute would be able to print the works of Louis Berkhof. A team of volunteers have translated Berkhof, Hodge, Gill. publishing houses do not want to invest on such work as Italian is a minority language and so not financially viable.
Please pray for Italy.
That's fair. I was simply stating what many charismatic denominations formally believe on the Trinity, thus ruling out Montanism.
 
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