Choosing a seminary

[Reformed City Rockers]

Dude, listen to R. Scott Clark!!!

Westminster Seminary California is the best seminary in the world. You need a place that will teach you how to properly distinguish the law from the gospel! Plus SoCal weather rocks. Seriously in these critical times especially in the light of recent attacks on the gospel from Federal Vision, converted Roman Catholics and the Emergent Church you need to have a top notch academic presentation of the gospel and it's defense in this age.

peace

 

[Romans922]

I'm an RTS-Jackson grad in the PCA.

If you want to be a Pastor (and only a Pastor, not going on to doctoral work) and you want to go into the PCA/OPC then I would say #1 Greenville. Unaccredidation doesn't matter unless you are going to go on to doctoral work. church's don't care of it is accredited or not, they know the seminary. Like what is said above, you might be not allowed in some presbyteries (in the PCA) because of that.

If you just want to be a pastor, i would say rule out Gordon-conwell all together. It seems to be liberal there (from my interaction with it) and it is very expensive to go to seminary there.

RTS jackson, I think is okay if you want to be a Pastor, but you can do the doctoral thing if you want from there. Many do. RTS Charlotte would probably be the same, I wouldn't go to any other RTS campuses. Jackson is cheap vs. Charlotte which is much more expensive.

 

[Marrow Man]

Andrew, are you free to state what presbyteries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?

 

[Damon Rambo]

How about Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary?

 

[Calvinist Cowboy]

Andrew, are you free to state what seminaries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?

Do you mean "presbyteries" in the PCA?

 

[Marrow Man]

Andrew, are you free to state what seminaries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?

Do you mean "presbyteries" in the PCA?

yes, duly noted and corrected!

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

Who can top a personal invitation from Dr. Clark? Go West, young man, Go west.

How 'bout I get Dr. Mohler talk to him?

Our session wouldn't approve, and he probably wouldn't come "under care" of the Presbytery....

 

[GD]

If you just want to be a pastor, i would say rule out Gordon-conwell all together. It seems to be liberal there (from my interaction with it) and it is very expensive to go to seminary there.

1. Most GCTS grads are headed for the pastorate, and the godly M.Div. grads I know reflect well on their alma mater. Many are involved in ministry at our O.P.C. church in the neighborhood. Those who are confessionally Reformed are no more or less so than confessionally Reformed WTS grads in ministry I have known.

2. The "L" world tars some good people very unfairly. I've had a little interaction with GCTS too (Th.M., '09), and I didn't find it liberal, just denominationally diverse.

3. Don't anyone assume it's too expensive without contacting the financial aid office. Like most well-established schools they offer scholarships to offset the stated tuition. I think I paid 50% of the stated cost, and lived inexpensively (relative to the area) on campus.

I won't trash the other schools mentioned - some are excellent places, and where God guided me to may not be where He sends you. May God bless you in your search, Pointing to Christ. Regarding acreditation, I would caution readers to remember that we don't infallibly know now what our needs will be later.

Cheers!

 

[PointingToChrist]

Thank you all very much for your replies and private messages to my search for a seminary. I only found Puritan Board recently, but I am very encouraged by such a large group of believers who take the word of God seriously.

My responses:

Backwoods Presbyterian: I am married, but no children as of yet. It is our hope to have children in the next few years, which may coincide with seminary if we were to go soon. Pastor and Presbytery have no recommendations as of yet. Location and distance matter somewhat. Charlotte is attractive because it is near my wife’s family. But, a place like Dyer, IN for MARS only has the quality for being near a friend in regards to location (which isn’t as strong of a pull as the seminary itself).

John Lanier: I have considered TNARS in the past, and it is still a possibility. However, I am somewhat skeptical of the viability of an unaccredited, completely-online seminary education. I don’t dispute the quality of its teaching, merely the framework.

SolaScriptura: My wife is very amenable to the idea of being a chaplain. Military is not at the top of my list, but it is not something I am ignoring, either. I’d like to chat with you more later on about your experiences.

Bookmeister: I have not ruled out Jackson, MS completely, but the location doesn’t appeal to my wife and me at this time. Perhaps that may change if the Lord opens doors pointing toward there.

cbryant: In regards to Redeemer (formerly WTS Dallas), I could be very wrong about this, but didn’t that seminary take in Peter Enns after his resignation from WTS Philly? If so, I’m somewhat leery of a seminary that would take in a person like that after the controversy, but if I am wrong, please forgive my error.

Edward: I wouldn’t say being near a large city is an absolute, just if it has relations to family or friends we know live near.

Calvinist Cowboy: Could you or anyone else explain accreditation for me? I saw the Department of Education’s website, but is it they who do the accrediting, or other bodies? And is there accreditation that would be deemed by another educational institution to be “not good enough?”

Dr. Clark – I will email you soon!

sans_nom: This is something we are praying and considering. On the one hand, I don’t want to presume the Lord will bless this if I jump into it, but nor do I want to delay a calling to be a pastor if that is the Lord’s will. I think scholarships may enter heavily into it. At the same time, I don’t think my Bachelors lends toward a promising career in Connecticut. Ministry aside, my “career” is going nowhere. Though it may be the Lord wants me in this situation, from a practical financial standpoint, waiting around may not build up funds.

Michael Doyle: I just heard of LAMP recently. I’m not sure if it is right for me, but I know Al Baker and will talk to him about it. I will also talk to you more about it.

Andres: The Lord has blessed us with friends, family (and the government) who have given us food, money, and other things to sustain us during our unemployment. It’s been such a blessing. I have (and still am) considering many of your suggestions.

Chaplee: A friend of mine who viewed the thread told me who you are! I’d like to speak with you soon.

Reepicheep: I understand your aversion to second-hand knowledge, but I don’t have the time or resources to visit every seminary, nor start taking classes with every one. I have friends who have seriously considered going or have first-hand interaction with Covenant grads. I have not made a final judgment on Covenant, but I respect those opinions of my friends who have close knowledge. I will be speaking to people from Covenant, however.

Lenflack, Emmanuel, Sven, Ivan, CalvinandHodges, jogri17, CharlieJ, Marrow_Man, chaplee, DanMcCormack, kvanlaan, Reformed_City_Rockers, Romans922, DavidG: thank you for your comments.

Please continue to post as you feel led. I am still considering many things.

 

[CDM]

G P T S

Sincerely,
a GPTS student

 

[cbryant]

Mitch,

Redeemer did not take in Peter Enns. If you look at the web site, Peter Enns is not on the faculty at Redeemer. Also, to my knowledge there is no plan to bring him on the faculty.

 

[Calvinist Cowboy]

Calvinist Cowboy: Could you or anyone else explain accreditation for me? I saw the Department of Education’s website, but is it they who do the accrediting, or other bodies? And is there accreditation that would be deemed by another educational institution to be “not good enough?”

There are a few different types of accreditation. The first type, which covers most four-year public and private universities and colleges (as well as at least one seminary - WSC), is regional accreditation. There are six regional agencies that accredit post-secondary schools. These agencies are approved and regulated by the Department of Education. The names of them can be found at CHEA • Directory of Regional Accrediting Organizations. Schools that are regionally accredited are held to high standards in the quality of their education.

A level of accreditation specific to seminaries is accreditation by the Association of Theological Schools (ATS). The ATS is a DOE-recognized agency which holds seminaries to high standards. Just about every major seminary is accredited by ATS. However, the ATS is thoroughly liberal, so just because a seminary is ATS-accredited does not mean that what is being taught there is biblical (PTS-lol). However, you know you'll get a rigorous education from such a seminary.

Another level of accreditation is that of groups of individual seminaries. For example, the Association of Reformed Theological Schools (ARTS) accredits GPTS, MARS, PRTS, and several other seminaries. These seminaries have banded together to provide and maintain a certain level in the quality (and the confessional nature) of their education. Such groups (like ARTS) are generally not recognized by the Department of Education. However, the schools accredited by ARTS are excellent schools with high quality educational standards. The down-side is that graduates from such seminaries may have difficulty in pursuing further education when applying to doctoral programs at other schools.

This means that if you want to go on after seminary to PhD studies at Oxford or Princeton, you will probably have a lot of hurdles coming from a school like GPTS. If you are looking for a place to train you as a pastor, then somewhere like GPTS is probably your best option. I came to Westminster Seminary California because it is academically stringent and has a reputation for producing godly shepherds of the Church. The best of both worlds.

 

[Edward]

cbryant: In regards to Redeemer (formerly WTS Dallas), I could be very wrong about this, but didn’t that seminary take in Peter Enns after his resignation from WTS Philly? If so, I’m somewhat leery of a seminary that would take in a person like that after the controversy, but if I am wrong, please forgive my error.

I have not heard any rumors to that effect, and he certainly doesn't show up on the faculty page. Redeemer Seminary Faculty

If you have ANY evidence of that, I'll be happy to follow up with one or more members of the board (I know about half the board members of the seminary, some better than others). There is also at least one student there who posts on PB; perhaps he can shed some light.

 

[AThornquist]

Dude, Ben, that WSC dress code is...cool. Why am I reminded of a wood elf?

 

[mvdm]

For clarification on the issue of accreditation, this is from Mid-America's website:

Mid-America Reformed Seminary is a member of the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) [P.O. Box 328, Forest, VA 24511; telephone 434-525-9539; email: [email protected]] having been awarded Accredited status as a Category III (Masters degree-granting) institution by TRACS Accreditation Commission on April 6, 2005; this status is effective for a period of five years. TRACS is recognized by the United States Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation as a national accrediting body for Christian institutions, colleges, universities, and seminaries. TRACS is also a member of the International Network for Quality Assurance Agencies in Higher Education.

 

[The Author of my Faith]

Debt

Apart from recommending a specific seminary, I would strongly encourage you to consider cost in your decision. You already mentioned that you have undergraduate debt. If at all possible, DO NOT go into debt in pursuing your seminary education. Let me repeat: AVOID DEBT if at all possible.

While I would not say that cost alone should be the factor, if you continue to add to educational debt, you may find yourself limiting your opportunities in the future. For example, you may find yourself having to turn down a call simply because the package is not large enough to support your family AND help you pay off your debt.

This is really one of the advantages that attending a denominational seminary will help with. Because I attended my denomination's seminary (Erskine), and because it is supported by the churches in the denomination, I was able to leave seminary without any debt. My first church was very small and could not offer a large package, but I was able to pastor there because I did not have a huge debt burden hanging over my head. Because you are PCA, I would suspect Covenant would be advantageous in this regard (you already mentioned scholarships available), and Greenville is both inexpensive and gives further breaks to PCA students, If I recall correctly. I think Mid-America is also relatively inexpensive, but even more so to URC students.

As was mentioned above, factor in the cost of living. The closer you are to a large city, the more expensive it will be (most likely). OTOH, Greenville doesn't cost that much to live in, and Jackson even more so. I'm not so sure about some of the other places.

That's just my , but I cannot stress enough the debt situation. I know of two specific incidents where pastors were hampered in their ministerial opportunities because of educational debt. My advice would be not to let that happen to you.

I agree that getting into debt is not the best option. BUT if you really believe God is leading you to do this and you do not have the ability to pay for it yourself or are not able to obtain enough scholarship money to pay. Don't forget that God is ABLE to provide all your needs. (not wants, or foolish rash descisions, but geniune needs). If He is calling you to do this and you have sought Godly counsel from strong believers who also believe this seems to be the way to go then you might simply have to step out in faith and trust God. But again, in the multitude of counsel their is safety. That is my

 

[Athanasius]

My alma mater never gets play, but she is small and weird - so I understand. OP, I'll throw in a plug for the Free Church of Scotland's Theological College - Free Church College Home Page - it's not practical, it's not sexy...but I will tell you that the men I see coming out of the American seminaries coming before my Presbytery don't have the kind of historical/systematic grounding that you'd get at the FC.

You'll get a classic Scottish Reformed Presbyterian education. It'll serve you well if you couple it with a missional drive. I don't know you, but I think the FC can be good for many.

In the USA I second the recommendation for Redeemer Seminary in TX. I'd probably go there if I had all my options laid out before me today.

An added bonus of the FC is that it is cheap (around 2500 pounds a year), the UK gives you free and good healthcare (we had our first daughter over there - wonderful care), and if you score one of the denomination's flats you can live pretty high on the hog on the cheap. You can get US student aid and your degree goes through the University of Glasgow. You also have full access to the New College library, which is extensive.

Please note that in the UK your Divinity/Theology degree is an undergraduate degree (second bachelors), as it was in this country until a few decades ago. No one in the UK offers an M.Div., they offer BD and BTh. degrees.

Cheers.

 

[R. Scott Clark]

WSC is accredited by two agencies recognized by the Dept of Education:

1. WASC (Western States) which accredits colleges and graduate schools.

2. ATS (Association of Theological Schools)

We just just had a joint-team visit (ATS/WASC) and received a clean bill of health. The visiting team was very encouraging. Their main job is to make sure that we are fulfilling our promises to our students and that we're meeting certain basic academic and administrative standards (e.g. sufficient faculty, library, staff, and other resources).

Accreditation affects the ability of students to receive student loans, enter the military chaplaincy, and to attend graduate school among other things.

Some schools do not have an accreditation recognized by the D of E because of some scruple but some are not so accredited because they couldn't meet the basic standards required by the accrediting agencies. This second case is sometimes covered by rhetoric. Students considering an unaccredited school should think carefully about whether there is a legitimate reason for not being accredited or whether a school lacks a real accreditation (i.e. one recognized by the D of E) because it is simply a poor school and thus, likely, a waste of money. There are more than a few home made seminaries that are unable to provide the necessary education, that lack a qualified faculty, that lack the necessary library (and other) resources that are all too ready to take your money and give you a degree.

I know that some folk don't like this analogy but I still think the med school analogy works. Why do we accept lower standards in our seminaries than we would for medical schools? Would you attend an unaccredited medical school with a sub-standard faculty and a sub-standard facility? Would you trust your health to a physician trained at such a school? Why should we entrust the care of our congregations to pastors trained at home-made seminary?

 

[Athanasius]

I know that some folk don't like this analogy but I still think the med school analogy works. Why do we accept lower standards in our seminaries than we would for medical schools? Would you attend an unaccredited medical school with a sub-standard faculty and a sub-standard facility? Would you trust your health to a physician trained at such a school? Why should we entrust the care of our congregations to pastors trained at home-made seminary?

I have to agree with RSC - I think we get more than just our theology from our Scottish roots, we're also cheap! I don't know about you guys but I have on several occasions bought something for a "good price" that didn't actually end up working well and I spent more fixing it or replacing it with something, more expensive, that actually worked.

I don't mind cost being a factor - it was for me - but if you can't afford a real degree, save your money until you can. God is powerful enough to do his work while you get your finances in order so you can get trained properly.

If I were choosing a seminary today - I'd probably go down the list this way:
1.) Redeemer Seminary (their accreditation is in process - but they are being birthed out by WTS and I am not concerned on that one)
2.) Oak Hill Theological College
3.) Covenant Theological Seminary
4.) Free Church College
5.) RTS (Orlando or Jackson)

I would also consider WSC, RPTS, Gordon-Conwell, WTS, maybe even Erskine!

... Greenville, New Geneva and a number of others wouldn't be on my list. But then again, I probably wouldn't be on theirs either.

 

[Marrow Man]

I agree that getting into debt is not the best option. BUT if you really believe God is leading you to do this and you do not have the ability to pay for it yourself or are not able to obtain enough scholarship money to pay. Don't forget that God is ABLE to provide all your needs. (not wants, or foolish rash descisions, but geniune needs). If He is calling you to do this and you have sought Godly counsel from strong believers who also believe this seems to be the way to go then you might simply have to step out in faith and trust God. But again, in the multitude of counsel their is safety. That is my

My is that his is not healthy advice. The Bible does not condemn debt outright, but it strongly discourages it. One's feelings should not take precedent over God's wisdom (this sounds too similar to a congregant who once told me that he was discouraged over his daughters unbiblical divorce; when he told her that marriage was supposed to be for life, her response was "Oh, Dad, I don't think God would want me to be unhappy"). The Lord Himself condemned the idea of "stepping out in faith" by saying we are not to put the Lord our God to the test (Matthew 4; Luke 4). Certainly God is able to supply all our needs, but that does not mean we make rash decisions that affect us (and our families) under a terrible burden for many years to come.

There are other options. Perhaps working for a while to save money before seminary is an option. Working your way through school might be the way to go. Many have done this. Money did literally fall into my lap (so to speak) when I went away to seminary; it was the Lord's blessing, but He did so through earthly means, and all of this was well prepared before I even took my first class. If the Lord does indeed wish you to go, the funds will be there. But they might not be immediate, you might have to wait and/or work, etc. There is no need to saddle yourself with an additional burden if there are ways to avoid it.

 

[Calvinist Cowboy]

Dude, Ben, that WSC dress code is...cool. Why am I reminded of a wood elf?

It's not wood elfish...it's Shakespearean!