Closed table between Presbyterians and baptists

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cw_theology

Puritan Board Freshman
This question is for both Presbyterians and baptists here, Presbyterians and baptists do you think the table should be closed to the other side why or why not? Should the other side be in membership at your church, why or not?
 
You are asking two separate questions. Supper fencing and membership. Both need separate threads or else the discussion be messy
 
Historically, Baptists have "closed" the Table to Presbyterians because they were not (in Baptist eyes) properly baptized (see Hiscox). Within their theological context, that makes sense because baptism is a prerequisite for the Lord's Supper. Historically (and now) Presbyterians have not "closed" the Table to Baptists.

I believe that the current stream of Baptist thought is not to close the Table to Presbyterians (in the main).
 
My family attends a baptist church for evening service because the OPC we are members of does not have one. Their only requirement to take the Lords supper is that you are a Christian. This seems to be what most baptist churches go by in my state.

For the OPC, the requirement is you are a believer and a member of a church (any bible believing church), so guests are invited to partake as well.
 
When I was still a young college-aged Baptist, I was dating a fine Presbyterian lass. I brought her to church regularly, and it was a wee bit of a scandal as I was dating "outside of the faith." :) One evening service, they were going to serve communion at FBC, and the Chairman of the Board of Deacons sides up to me and says "Your girlfriend cannot take communion because as a Presbyterian she was not properly baptised." To which I responded: "Dad, if you had paid attention at the supper table, you would recall that she was baptised by immersion, in the creek behind Blackjack Presbyterian Church, on profession of faith when she was 12 years old. Presbyterians baptise on profession of faith and will use immersion too, ya know." Dad got big-eyed, but my girlfriend took communion that evening. Good times!
 
When I was still a young college-aged Baptist, I was dating a fine Presbyterian lass. I brought her to church regularly, and it was a wee bit of a scandal as I was dating "outside of the faith." :) One evening service, they were going to serve communion at FBC, and the Chairman of the Board of Deacons sides up to me and says "Your girlfriend cannot take communion because as a Presbyterian she was not properly baptised." To which I responded: "Dad, if you had paid attention at the supper table, you would recall that she was baptised by immersion, in the creek behind Blackjack Presbyterian Church, on profession of faith when she was 12 years old. Presbyterians baptise on profession of faith and will use immersion too, ya know." Dad got big-eyed, but my girlfriend took communion that evening. Good times!
Haha, great story. I didn't know that presbyterians will occasionally baptize by immersion?
 
So by definition it is the Lord's table, and not the Presbyterian table or Baptist table. So I think the only prerequisite should be somebody being a Christian and a good standing member at a gospel proclaiming church.
 
This question is for both Presbyterians and baptists here, Presbyterians and baptists do you think the table should be closed to the other side why or why not? Should the other side be in membership at your church, why or not?

On the Dutch Reformed side, I argue that the table should ordinarily be only open to visitors who are members of churches in NAPARC, denominations with whom we have ecclesiastical fellowship, or churches that otherwise confess the Three Forms of Unity or Westminster Standards.

URCNA Church Order Article 45

“The Consistory shall supervise participation at the Lord's Table. No member shall be admitted to the Lord's Table who has not first made public profession of faith and is not living a godly life. Visitors may be admitted provided that, as much as possible, the Consistory is assured of their biblical church membership, of their proper profession of faith, and of their godly walk.”

Belgic Confession Article 29

“…The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head.….”
 
On the Dutch Reformed side, I argue that the table should ordinarily be only open to visitors who are members of churches in NAPARC, denominations with whom we have ecclesiastical fellowship, or churches that otherwise confess the Three Forms of Unity or Westminster Standards.

URCNA Church Order Article 45

“The Consistory shall supervise participation at the Lord's Table. No member shall be admitted to the Lord's Table who has not first made public profession of faith and is not living a godly life. Visitors may be admitted provided that, as much as possible, the Consistory is assured of their biblical church membership, of their proper profession of faith, and of their godly walk.”

Belgic Confession Article 29

“…The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head.….”
So no baptists?
 
So no baptists?

That seems to be the idea. Yet limiting communion to members of NAPARC churches doesn't adequately address the core issue, since most NAPARC churches allow functional Baptists into conditional membership. So the desired fencing off of the table against Baptists would require an even deeper inquiry, like point-blank asking people whether they believe in and would practice infant baptism.
 
My family attends a baptist church for evening service because the OPC we are members of does not have one. Their only requirement to take the Lords supper is that you are a Christian. This seems to be what most baptist churches go by in my state.

For the OPC, the requirement is you are a believer and a member of a church (any bible believing church), so guests are invited to partake as well.

Good morning to everyone,

I'm new to this thread and haven't read all of the posts yet, but I have a general statement about your post.

I think both churches have missed the boat on this one. It used to be in Reformed churches that the elders were in charge of the table. But now it seems that the man in the pew has the final authority as to whether he is a worthy taker of the supper and therefore allowed to come forward and receive the elements. This practice is fairly new in our modern times.

I'm well aware that the Bible teaches that an individual can bar himself from the table for reasons I will not discuss here. But that is not the same as saying he may allow himself, of his own will to partake. A privledge that always was and should be in the hands of the elders.

In former times most Church practices I am familiar with required that a man be both a member of the church where he is receiving the supper and pre-approved by the elders for this particular supper. Today's model is twisted and puts the individual, who is not at all an authority in the church, to make up his own mind to partake or not partake of this most important sacrament. The Elder's job, it seems, to to that of a servant who does the bidding of the parishioner. He hands out the communion but has little say over who should partake. This is a modern innovation. Many Reformed churches, no most, of the past, interviewed each would be partaker asking questions about his personal and families Spiritual health and practices. Does he have children? Are they being Faithfully catechized? Does his family have regular devotions with the head of the household presiding? These and like questions the elders would ask and then after deliberation decide if this man may or may not partake of the supper. I think I've said enough here to get the ball rolling so for now I will leave out the whys and wherefors, of the whole. Many churches had tokens that would be given to the ones who had been accepted for the supper and who handed in the proof before they could partake. At any rate, I'm just trying to stir the waters a bit and get us thinking a little bit more historically and covenantly.

If I visited either of these churches I might find myself asking, even if subconsciously, these five questions:
  1. Who's in charge around here?
  2. Who do I report to?
  3. What are the rules?
  4. What happens to me if I obey or disobey?
  5. And finally, does this outfit have a future?
EW
 
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It is also true that some WCF adherents, including ministers on this board (at least in the past), interpret that clause as meaning immersion is not to be practiced.

I think we would have to see the minutes, if available, to settle that one.

WCF – CHAPTER XXVIII. Of Baptism

III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary, but baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person. [K]​
​
[K] Heb. 9:10, 19, 20, 21, 22; Acts 2:41. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 16:33. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. Mark 7:4. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables.​
 
Regarding whether or not Baptists allow Presbyterians to participate in the Lord's Supper, in some cases it's determined by whether or not the Presbyterian in attendance has been baptized as a believer.

It doesn't seem to be the same answer across all Baptist churches, but many do allow a Presbyterian to partake in the Lord's Supper (and even join membership in some cases) if said Presbyterian was baptized as a believer.
 
Regarding whether or not Baptists allow Presbyterians to participate in the Lord's Supper, in some cases it's determined by whether or not the Presbyterian in attendance has been baptized as a believer.

It doesn't seem to be the same answer across all Baptist churches, but many do allow a Presbyterian to partake in the Lord's Supper (and even join membership in some cases) if said Presbyterian was baptized as a believer.
There is no consistency across Baptist churches (that is a feature, not a bug) but "baptized as a believer" is only one component. If one is baptized after professing faith (which is what that really is) by sprinkling or pouring (i.e., non-immersion) many Baptist churches will not recognize that as a valid baptism.
 
There is no consistency across Baptist churches (that is a feature, not a bug) but "baptized as a believer" is only one component. If one is baptized after professing faith (which is what that really is) by sprinkling or pouring (i.e., non-immersion) many Baptist churches will not recognize that as a valid baptism.
Good point!
 
There is no consistency across Baptist churches (that is a feature, not a bug) but "baptized as a believer" is only one component. If one is baptized after professing faith (which is what that really is) by sprinkling or pouring (i.e., non-immersion) many Baptist churches will not recognize that as a valid baptism.
Even though, ironically if I'm correct, didn't the first English Baptists practice affusion? I think Jim Renihan said something to that effect. Then they adopted immersion from the continent, I think it was?

Now I'm wondering if they all got rebaptized again post-adoption of said practice.
 
You do know that in time, we will work this out as our oneness grows.
It grows as Jesus prayed it would in John 17. And I am on solid ground when I say that Jesus' prayers to His Father were also prophecies.

We will not always be divided.
 
Good morning to everyone,

I'm new to this thread and haven't read all of the posts yet, but I have a general statement about your post.

I think both churches have missed the boat on this one. It used to be in Reformed churches that the elders were in charge of the table. But now it seems that the man in the pew has the final authority as to whether he is a worthy taker of the supper and therefore allowed to come forward and receive the elements. This practice is fairly new in our modern times.

I'm well aware that the Bible teaches that an individual can bar himself from the table for reasons I will not discuss here. But that is not the same as saying he may allow himself, of his own will to partake. A privledge that always was and should be in the hands of the elders.

In former times most Church practices I am familiar with required that a man be both a member of the church where he is receiving the supper and pre-approved by the elders for this particular supper. Today's model is twisted and puts the individual, who is not at all an authority in the church, to make up his own mind to partake or not partake of this most important sacrament. The Elder's job, it seems, to to that of a servant who does the bidding of the parishioner. He hands out the communion but has little say over who should partake. This is a modern innovation. Many Reformed churches, no most, of the past, interviewed each would be partaker asking questions about his personal and families Spiritual health and practices. Does he have children? Are they being Faithfully catechized? Does his family have regular devotions with the head of the household presiding? These and like questions the elders would ask and then after deliberation decide if this man may or may not partake of the supper. I think I've said enough here to get the ball rolling so for now I will leave out the whys and wherefors, of the whole. Many churches had tokens that would be given to the ones who had been accepted for the supper and who handed in the proof before they could partake. At any rate, I'm just trying to stir the waters a bit and get us thinking a little bit more historically and covenantly.

If I visited either of these churches I might find myself asking, even if subconsciously, these five questions:
  1. Who's in charge around here?
  2. Who do I report to?
  3. What are the rules?
  4. What happens to me if I obey or disobey?
  5. And finally, does this outfit have a future?
EW
Briefly, since it's late:
The Bible says "Let every man examine himself"
There is no mention of being grilled by elders or having his life and testimony minutely examined.
When I visit churches while travelling, however, I seek permission to partake from an elder before the service, to make sure I don't bruise their consciences if they have strictures I don't necessarily adhere to. It's only charitable, and I'd rather not partake, even though I know I'm fully qualified to, than wound their conscience.
 
Briefly, since it's late:
The Bible says "Let every man examine himself"
There is no mention of being grilled by elders or having his life and testimony minutely examined.
This is the stance our church also takes. The Pastor mentions each time before the distribution of the elements that you need to be saved (and if you don't know what that means, go and talk to him before partaking) and in good standing with the Lord's Church (not hold any grudges against brothers in Christ).
 
Briefly, since it's late:
The Bible says "Let every man examine himself"
There is no mention of being grilled by elders or having his life and testimony minutely examined.
When I visit churches while travelling, however, I seek permission to partake from an elder before the service, to make sure I don't bruise their consciences if they have strictures I don't necessarily adhere to. It's only charitable, and I'd rather not partake, even though I know I'm fully qualified to, than wound their conscience.
The Bible also does not give the sacrament to individuals but to churches and elders. You cannot be excommunicated unless you have been communicated.
 
The Bible also does not give the sacrament to individuals but to churches and elders. You cannot be excommunicated unless you have been communicated.
While not denying that fencing the table is a duty of elders, does not the ultimate responsibility rest on the individual? The one who partakes unworthy eats and drinks damnation to himself, not to the overly lenient elders.
 
While not denying that fencing the table is a duty of elders, does not the ultimate responsibility rest on the individual? The one who partakes unworthy eats and drinks damnation to himself, not to the overly lenient elders.
No. The entire premise of church discipline rests on the ability of the church (through its elders) to communicate and excommunicate people. A person who is unbaptized cannot just "determine on his own" that he is entitled to the Table, for example. If the "ultimate responsibility rest(s) on the individual" then there is no need for fencing the table at all.
 
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