Current State of the PCI

[DanM]

Hello all,
A little bit of context:
I spent the first 13 years of my life in the PCI but the last 5 in a baptist church where ironically I became interested and ultimately convinced of Presbyterianism.
I have also been a part of the RPCI camps and GO Teams as I have family in that denomination.
Lord willing I will be moving to university this September and am trying to decide between PCI and RPCI.

I am wondering what the state of PCI is in regards to traditional reformed theology and particularly female eldership. An online survey of the congregations in South Belfast paint a pretty bleak picture in these regards. How is it throughout the rest of the denomination?
I've heard of growing opposition to female elders but can't seem to find it. How likely is it that the PCI will return to a male only eldership?
(Also feel free to drop any thoughts/advice about PCI v. RPCI)

Thanks!

 

[Ploutos]

Hello all,
A little bit of context:
I spent the first 13 years of my life in the PCI but the last 5 in a baptist church where ironically I became interested and ultimately convinced of Presbyterianism.
I have also been a part of the RPCI camps and GO Teams as I have family in that denomination.
Lord willing I will be moving to university this September and am trying to decide between PCI and RPCI.

I am wondering what the state of PCI is in regards to traditional reformed theology and particularly female eldership. An online survey of the congregations in South Belfast paint a pretty bleak picture in these regards. How is it throughout the rest of the denomination?
I've heard of growing opposition to female elders but can't seem to find it. How likely is it that the PCI will return to a male only eldership?
(Also feel free to drop any thoughts/advice about PCI v. RPCI)

Thanks!

My very broad and uninformed understanding: PCI = somewhere between our PCA and EPC. RPCI = our RPCNA.

 

[StevieG]

Hello all,
A little bit of context:
I spent the first 13 years of my life in the PCI but the last 5 in a baptist church where ironically I became interested and ultimately convinced of Presbyterianism.
I have also been a part of the RPCI camps and GO Teams as I have family in that denomination.
Lord willing I will be moving to university this September and am trying to decide between PCI and RPCI.

I am wondering what the state of PCI is in regards to traditional reformed theology and particularly female eldership. An online survey of the congregations in South Belfast paint a pretty bleak picture in these regards. How is it throughout the rest of the denomination?
I've heard of growing opposition to female elders but can't seem to find it. How likely is it that the PCI will return to a male only eldership?
(Also feel free to drop any thoughts/advice about PCI v. RPCI)

Thanks!

Unfortunately PCI has been very up and down over the last number of decades. The denomination did become quite liberal and decided to ordain women elders and eventually women ministers. There has been a chance in recent times with a lot more ministers and elders being convinced of male only elders. As with a lot of these things it'll take time for meaningful change to come. If you'd like to learn a bit more about that look up Biblical Church Leadership on Facebook for a group within the church pushing for a biblical position: https://www.facebook.com/biblicalchurchleadership/

If you're looking for a church the denomination is hit or miss moving from Presbytery to Presbytery. Some like Ballymena, and a few others, would be pretty conservative and reformed. Others, sadly less so and a few very loudly promoting female ordination.

I say this as a minister within the denomination. There's a lot of work to be done, but I can see small signs of change and know enough like minded ministers and elders to give me hope for the future.

I'd be happy to chat more about this if it would be helpful.

 

[DanM]

Thanks very much, I'll look at that group

If you know anything about Richview Presbyterian church in Belfast it would be nice as they don't seem to have any online presence, all the PCI churches I've found within walking distance of Queen's University seem to have female elders

 

[EmilyF]

Even the RPCI is not as strict as RPCS, not sure about RPCNA. So if you are looking for something very traditional it is moving away from that and may not be up to your standards (re Sabbath, dress, etc., though the worship still fits RPW and their official doctrine is probably good), but if you're used to modern US style (native denominations, not FCC or FP, for example) you would find it OK. FPCS used to have a church in NI, but the congregation was quite small and was unable to be supported, and I think the elders leaned baptist. If you are interested in more traditional Presbyterianism, you could contact us.

I would definitely choose RPCI over PCI from what has been written.

 

[StevieG]

Thanks very much, I'll look at that group

If you know anything about Richview Presbyterian church in Belfast it would be nice as they don't seem to have any online presence, all the PCI churches I've found within walking distance of Queen's University seem to have female elders

I've asked a friend who would likely know the church better than I would and will send you a private message when I hear back from them.

Sadly, the denomination isn't in the place it should be. I spent a lot of time in prayer about whether to stay, train for ministry here and seek to be a good influence or find my spiritual home somewhere else. I feel God called me to remain and there are definitely places where God is evidently working, but as I've already said this will be a long term work reforming the church by God's grace.

 

[Jake]

Would you consider the EPC? They have a congregation nearby: https://epcni.org.uk/stranmillis/

 

[DanM]

I spent a lot of time in prayer about whether to stay, train for ministry here and seek to be a good influence or find my spiritual home somewhere else. I feel God called me to remain and there are definitely places where God is evidently working, but as I've already said this will be a long term work reforming the church by God's grace.

That sounds very similar to how I feel, would love to chat more about why you decided to stay in the end.

Would you consider the EPC? They have a congregation nearby: https://epcni.org.uk/stranmillis/

Yeah, I've heard a lot of good things about the EPCNI and Stranmillis in particular, it's likely enough I'll be about there.
It would be a good option for Uni but beyond that its a very small denomination (9 or 10 congregations) without a great geographical coverage

 

[Jake]

That sounds very similar to how I feel, would love to chat more about why you decided to stay in the end.


Yeah, I've heard a lot of good things about the EPCNI and Stranmillis in particular, it's likely enough I'll be about there.
It would be a good option for Uni but beyond that its a very small denomination (9 or 10 congregations) without a great geographical coverage

I'd focus on finding a solid congregation where you are/will be and less about geographical coverage. I'm a member of a solid ARP congregation but have no qualms with visiting other denominations when I'm away from home. ARP is larger but heavily concentrated in a few states.

 

[WithinThePale]

I'll second the EPC, lots of very sound folk there! I've been in PCI congregations a fair bit in the past, and my impression is that a lot of them tend towards pragmatism, and some of the churches are very cold as regards the Gospel, either in liberalism or in nominalism, and the preaching of God's word isn't valued as it ought. There's still lots of good people at all levels, but generally not those with deep Presbyterian convictions.

I'm a big fan of the RPs and we visit them when we travel, as they're very predictable solid Gospel preachers, keeping up a steady supply of the ordinary means of grace.

 

[a.k.pritchard]

I’ve recently made the move from the Gospel Hall brethren assembly to the RPCI. I’m very happy and edified where I am now. Happy to DM and put you in contact with some good resources! Every blessing. Arnold.

 

[JP Wallace]

As an RPCI minister I'll not argue for one over the other but merely point out the differences. If you aren't happy to only sing psalms - EPC will be the more steady choice depending on where you are, as noted above the PCI will be very variable, EPC will not. EPC has Stranmillis Road, but don't forget Knock near Stormont. Good preachers in both.

Female Elders/Ministers
PCI yes, there is a movement against it, but I'm afraid I'm not optimistic.
EPC no and I doubt there ever will be
RPCI no and I doubt there ever will be

Worship
PCI...it could be anything from conservative to charismatic to liberal
EPC..conservative they will sing hymns and psalms, with likely a piano or organ.
RPCI...sing the psalms, no musical accompaniment or special music

A comment above mentions that the RPCI is not even as conservative as the RPCS. I would dispute that somewhat - we sing the same things the same ways, have the same confessions, etc. We are not as "conservative" as the Free Church Continuing on head coverings, wearing only suits etc or on using only the AV and such matters, but then again, that's not what defines conservative necessarily, it may for some not for others. I believe I could worship happily in the FCC.

The RPCI has two smaller works in South Belfast (or thereabouts) Woodstock (on the Cregagh Road) and Shaftsbury Square, and one bigger one at Knockbracken.

 

[william Attersoll]

Hello all,
A little bit of context:
I spent the first 13 years of my life in the PCI but the last 5 in a baptist church where ironically I became interested and ultimately convinced of Presbyterianism.
I have also been a part of the RPCI camps and GO Teams as I have family in that denomination.
Lord willing I will be moving to university this September and am trying to decide between PCI and RPCI.

I am wondering what the state of PCI is in regards to traditional reformed theology and particularly female eldership. An online survey of the congregations in South Belfast paint a pretty bleak picture in these regards. How is it throughout the rest of the denomination?
I've heard of growing opposition to female elders but can't seem to find it. How likely is it that the PCI will return to a male only eldership?
(Also feel free to drop any thoughts/advice about PCI v. RPCI)

Thanks!

Feel free to get in touch. I live in Co Antrim

 

[darrellmaurina]

I want to speak here as someone who was raised in the mainline church world and knows the problems, as well as the benefits, of being evangelical and Reformed in the mainline.

Your most important decision is based on the local church, not the denomination. There are places, sadly, where the "conservative" denominations have a local church that is more interested in being evangelical than Reformed, and by comparison, a local church in a not-so-solid denomination may be solid. I am reminded of a situation in the Netherlands back in the 1980s where the most conservative church in a fairly large town was a Gereformeerde Bond congregation in the old Dutch state church, and a CRC minister I knew serving a GKN church was complaining about his NHK neighbor being "way too conservative" because, among other things, the NHK was actually fencing the table and insisting that people be personally converted before coming to the Lord's Table.

That isn't just in Europe. When I was pastoring a Congregational church back in the 1990s that used the CRC's Blue Psalter Hymnal, we had visits from CRC people from time to time who said the only thing "wrong" with us was that our people were too short. (The building was put up shortly after the Civil War, and since people were shorter in the 1800s than they are today, we joked that we needed a sign saying "Dutch Alert, Duck Head" on the main door, which I don't think was 6 feet tall and DID create problems for tall people hitting their heads.)

If there is a soundly conservative church in the mainline denomination you can attend and join (two different questions, BTW) without violating your conscience, I'd give that local church in the mainline denomination a serious look. Even if there are problems, I know from firsthand experience that local churches that are "on the fence," with the addition of a couple of good families, can be recovered.

But what you can put up with depends on your conscience. If exclusive psalmody or head coverings are must-haves for you... well... that kind of answers your question. I respect those positions. They are not mine, though the last time we sang anything at Hazelgreen other than a psalm, it was the Genevan Canticle of the Ten Commandments, and before that it was last year with one of the other Genevan Canticles that happened to fit well with the sermon text.

If you are a more typical Reformed person, or at least typical for a North American context, you may find a church in the PCI you can attend, and eventually join. Don't rule it out.