Dealing with somebody claming healing...

[J. Dean]

I need help from all here, if you please. I'm talking to somebody right now about a "Faith healer" who is putting out seriously questionable doctrine, and his response was "well I went and I was healed."

What I want to say is that whether you were healed or not is besides the point, but my ears are wide open for other advice.


Any thoughts?

 

[Peairtach]

God can answer the prayers of your friend or the faith healer, and yet he is not a faith healer - the gift of healing having ceased - and is spouting false doctrine.

God still says, "Yes", sometimes, to prayers for healing.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

I dealt with many of these cases. You would need to agree on what is a valid test of orthodoxy, is it scripture properly exegeted or experiences and feelings? If it is experiences you might as well fellowship with new agers, wiccans, occultists etc. since they have similar habilities.

 

[J. Dean]

Thank you, gentlemen. All other comments on this are welcome as well.

Etienne, that's part of the problem: this person seems to be so wowed by his healing that it's hard to convince him of anything else. When I brought up several items that the speaker in question had said that were at best questionable (the most egregious of which I heard: that people were literally "raised from the dead"), the argument was diverted.

 

[he beholds]

I probably would say that it's hard to argue against experiences but it seems that the Bible says that healing was a thing for the apostles. Even if our experience seems to say otherwise, the Bible cannot be proven wrong. I would probably personally not be too dogmatic, though, because the whole cessation of gifts is a giant mystery to me. I would probably say that anything that takes focus off of the Lord and puffs up the self is not working for God. So what is the healer's point in "healing"? To show himself special or to help God's people and give God the glory? If the gift of healing is even possible, it would glorify the Lord and the person doing it would not be celebrated anyway.

What are the other troubling doctrines being put forth? I think I'd address those and say, even IF the guy does have the spiritual gift of healing, if that is even possible today, he still is human and a sinner and these points__________, ___________, and _____________ are not in line with Scripture, because ________________, ______________________, and ___________________.

 

[Zach]

As someone who is a cessationist and has met very genuine, Christ loving, body edifying (ie. not cooky Charismaniacs who are trying to stir up trouble and take the focus away from Christ and the Gospel) brothers and sisters in the Lord who claim to have the gift of healing, I have a question that hopefully will contribute to the thread. Mr. Dean, If I side track the thread just say something and hopefully the Moderators will create a new thread. Is it appropriate to say that the Lord in His providence answers the prayers of some more than others with regard to healing someone who is sick? Because it does seem like I know some people who, it seems, when they pray for healing, people get healed. I know that it is not the Apostolic gift, but it does confuse me. I certainly don't believe all people who appear to heal are working with Satan or something of demonic nature. Any advice?

 

[py3ak]

Deuteronomy 13. It doesn't matter if predictions come true or signs and wonders are performed; if the truth according to godliness is not taught, the teacher is still a false prophet.

 

[J. Dean]

As someone who is a cessationist and has met very genuine, Christ loving, body edifying (ie. not cooky Charismaniacs who are trying to stir up trouble and take the focus away from Christ and the Gospel) brothers and sisters in the Lord who claim to have the gift of healing, I have a question that hopefully will contribute to the thread. Mr. Dean, If I side track the thread just say something and hopefully the Moderators will create a new thread. Is it appropriate to say that the Lord in His providence answers the prayers of some more than others with regard to healing someone who is sick? Because it does seem like I know some people who, it seems, when they pray for healing, people get healed. I know that it is not the Apostolic gift, but it does confuse me. I certainly don't believe all people who appear to heal are working with Satan or something of demonic nature. Any advice?

I think Richard's point in #2 applies to this. And Ruben quoted one of the Scriptures that I intend to bring to this person's attention.

 

[Zach]

Thanks Mr. Dean and Ruben for your answers. I appreciate it, as many of my friends are not cessationists.

 

[Pergamum]

I know people who minister here who have "raised the dead" - because in Melanesian culture often a person is in high fever and barely breathing and non-responsive and the community considers them already dead. Thus, I have raised the dead about 3 or 4 times here. Thing is, however, is that another Western missionary I know includes such a thing prominently in their public testimony to countless gullible churches back in the US.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

Thank you, gentlemen. All other comments on this are welcome as well.

Etienne, that's part of the problem: this person seems to be so wowed by his healing that it's hard to convince him of anything else. When I brought up several items that the speaker in question had said that were at best questionable (the most egregious of which I heard: that people were literally "raised from the dead"), the argument was diverted.

Yes I know what you are saying I have faced this many times, most people are not willing to even consider that somebody with such habilities could be charlatans, I have known some faith healers who genuinely believe they are following the truth but unfortunately are completely deceived. What people also need to recognize is that good intentions is not a determiner of truth. I know this is probably not helping you but from experience unless God intervenes and give them a heart that seek truth rather than comfort your effort to convince them will more than likely be fruitless. The best thing you can do is pray for them.

A good resource for this subject is "A call for discernement by Justin Peters" especially if the doctrine of the faith healer is questionable. It is not from a reformed perspective but is a very good expose of the Word of Faith movement, maybe it could help if your friend is willing to watch it. You can find it on youtube.

 

[gordo]

Interesting discussion. While I think 'faith healers' like you see on TV or even someone that goes around as a 'faith healer' are suspect at best, I can't deny my experiences with asking the Lord for healing and in faith receiving it. I suffered from chronic neck pain/headaches for years as well as OCD/anxiety from concussions. I would always pray about it and ask the Lord for relief and comfort, if it was His will. Of course it never came. I prayed about my issues one night and after that I had faith it was done, I didn't doubt and low and behold the next morning the afflictions were gone. I praise God everyday for that. I suppose the difference was that if we ask for healing and then shrug it off and say "lets see what happens.." we are showing very little faith. I think of the lady who touched our Lord's garments or the centurion who had the sick servant. They believed they would be healed. They didn't have doubts. Is it the Lord's will to heal more often if one asks and believes it will be done?

PS. Sorry for bumping this old thread. Just stumbled on it and wanted to share.

edit: bolding 'more often' in the last sentence just to clarify.

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

I dealt with many of these cases. You would need to agree on what is a valid test of orthodoxy, is it scripture properly exegeted or experiences and feelings?

Deuteronomy 13. It doesn't matter if predictions come true or signs and wonders are performed; if the truth according to godliness is not taught, the teacher is still a false prophet.

Way to drive it right to the scriptures brothers!
The issue is one of supplanting sola scriptura.

 

[Jack K]

If Pharaoh's magicians could turn their rods into snakes, turn water to blood and summon frogs, then a false prophet might be given enough rope to bring about a healing. That doesn't prove anything. As Ruben said, the question is whether or not he teaches truth according to the Scriptures.

If this friend puts evidence of healing before the Scriptures, ask how that won't cause God's people to be deceived by every talented charlatan who comes along. Is he so sure he can tell the difference between godly power, satanic power and trickery that he's willing to put his powers of discernment ahead of the Bible?

 

[Andres]

I just flat out don't believe the majority of people are healed when they claim they are. I am trying to choose my words carefully and not say that God never heals anyone, but I will say I am extremely skeptical.

 

[davenporter]

"For such people [who preach a different Jesus, Spirit or gospel--see v. 4] are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2 Cor 11:13-14

If they preach a different Jesus, Spirit, or gospel, the "miracle" is probably demonic.

In any event, attack the doctrine head on with Scripture. It's easy for people to get caught up in this stuff -- a desire for spiritual interaction, spiritual power, instead of a desire to worship and commune with God through Christ. If not for God's gracious means of people who spoke the truth including teachers I listened to and friends around me, I could have gotten in too deep with some of this self-focused "Charismania".

In terms of healing itself, I have no problem with a person claiming "God healed me." There's nothing wrong with believing that if you are actually healed, for whatever means God used He is still ultimately responsible for your healing. The problem arises when some faith healer claims to heal people, and is given a sort of apostolic authority in the eyes of his followers.

 

[J. Dean]

I just flat out don't believe the majority of people are healed when they claim they are. I am trying to choose my words carefully and not say that God never heals anyone, but I will say I am extremely skeptical.

I do believe that in many cases that can be true, brother Andrew. It's interesting to note that, when healings come, they're almost always for things that cannot necessarily be witnessed right away. For example, you don't see a man's amputated arm grow back. THAT would be a real miracle.

Well, just for an update on this, the person in question is part of the reason I am no longer attending the Nazarene church (I can speak freely about this because it is now public knowledge, thanks to him). I gave him details about the things this "faith healer" has said, and used the Scriptures (including Deut 13) for reference. He unfortunately would not listen. It's a shame, because I had-and to a degree still have-a great deal of respect for this man, but he's letting his "experience" trump everything else.

 

[Andres]

I just flat out don't believe the majority of people are healed when they claim they are. I am trying to choose my words carefully and not say that God never heals anyone, but I will say I am extremely skeptical.

I do believe that in many cases that can be true, brother Andrew. It's interesting to note that, when healings come, they're almost always for things that cannot necessarily be witnessed right away. For example, you don't see a man's amputated arm grow back. THAT would be a real miracle.

Exactly. I can't remember where I watched it or I'd link to it, but I saw a story on Benny Hinn crusades where actual doctor's attempted to verify supposed "miraculous healings". In every single case the doctors were able to determine that no healings actually took place. Remember, the mind is very powerful and suggestive thinking can be very powerful.

Now with all that said, my main reason for rejecting present day healings is because I find them contradictory to scripture. Scripture must trump everything else we think we know.

 

[gordo]

Hi Andres

I am curious where present day healing is found to be contradictory to scripture. Something I am curious about.

Thanks!

 

[Andres]

Hi Andres

I am curious where present day healing is found to be contradictory to scripture. Something I am curious about.

Thanks!

If you're looking for one verse that says "God won't heal anymore", then I can't give it to you. Instead, I come to this conclusion based on a large portion of NT writings. We must consider the context of why God chose to heal during the establishment of the church. Also we must consider that in Apostolic times they lacked the complete canon of scripture. Healing, along with other Apostolic gifts were for that time for a specific reason. I think it was Kim Riddlebarger who said, "You don't pour concrete in the attic." Concrete is for the foundation of a house and as such miracles were for the foundation of the church to establish the authority of the Apostles.

 

[gordo]

Fair enough Andrew. I appreciate the reply!

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

One never sees a multiple amputee brought up on stage at any of these "healing services." There is a reason why.....

I can allow for God to heal people, possibly miraculously, even today. I have too many physician friends who have told me too many stories of folks who "should not possibly have recovered" yet did. However, in none of these instances was a huxter faith healer promoting thier own "brand name" involved.

 

[gordo]

I can allow for God to heal people, possibly miraculously, even today. I have too many physician friends who have told me too many stories of folks who "should not possibly have recovered" yet did. However, in none of these instances was a huxter faith healer promoting thier own "brand name" involved.

Good post!

 

[Beau Michel]

The Problem with churches that practice "faith healing" is that their focus is on the wrong things.They speak much of the Holy Spirit(whose office it is to proclaim and glorify Christ) and little of Christ who is the focal point of all Scripture.There is a new group(I will not even dignify them with the name church) that is one of these non-denominational non confessional types who have a sign telling about their place of worship and lists five things describing what they are and what they do and not one mention is made of Christ.This man sounds like his "faith' rests in his own experience(so common in the I and me age) and not on Christ or the Scriptures.Beau Michel-Taylor Mi-1689 London Baptist Confession

---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 PM ----------

The Problem with churches that practice "faith healing" is that their focus is on the wrong things.They speak much of the Holy Spirit(whose office it is to proclaim and glorify Christ) and little of Christ who is the focal point of all Scripture.There is a new group(I will not even dignify them with the name church) that is one of these non-denominational non confessional types who have a sign telling about their place of worship and lists five things describing what they are and what they do and not one mention is made of Christ.This man sounds like his "faith' rests in his own experience(so common in the I and me age) and not on Christ or the Scriptures.Beau Michel-Taylor Mi-1689 London Baptist Confession

1Corinthians 2:2

 

[gordo]

The Problem with churches that practice "faith healing" is that their focus is on the wrong things.They speak much of the Holy Spirit(whose office it is to proclaim and glorify Christ) and little of Christ who is the focal point of all Scripture.

Kind of a generalization. The people I have seen and read about being healed praise Jesus Christ to no end.

 

[Andres]

I have too many physician friends who have told me too many stories of folks who "should not possibly have recovered" yet did.

This type of healing is not the same thing as the miracles that occur in the NT. If someone is ill or injured and they get well and recover, yes God is to be praised and thanked for His hand in the recovery, but this is not the same thing at the miraculous healings wrought at the hands of Christ and the Apostles.

 

[rookie]

I find it interesting, how most of those healers, don't put much focuse on Christ's death and resurrection, but on His works, and same with the apostles. And the verse that comes to mind is

John 14 - 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

And this is taken out of context. Basically, faith healers are saying they are greater than Christ? And if they are, why don't they go to the hospitals and where people are dying of cancer and cure them?

 

[Eoghan]

As a "poacher turned gamekeeper" I cannot say enough how dangerous this is. Faith healers have killed people - literally! Urging people top abandon medicine and hospital treatment as a matter of faith is just plain wrong. If you recall the story of Joni, she had to deal with people telling her she could be healed.

Our own church has just lost one of its members (death) from a "faith healing" charismatic household. The adjustments they have had to make to accommodate this denial of their theology is enormous - possibly insurmountable for them!

BB Warfield is useful as is James Randi's book The Faith Healers. Miraculous healing is no longer normative, possible yes, normative no. What was your friend healed of - asthma? I doubt it was AIDS!