EP and Sunday school?????

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S. Spence

S. Spence

Puritan Board Freshman
Sorry (in advance).

This is probably a really silly question but I've often wondered and have been meaning to ask, in churches that hold to EP do the children in Sunday school or Bible club etc sing only Psalms? Are children's choruses forbidden? Or are simplified paraphrases of Psalms used?
 
S. Spence said:
Sorry (in advance).

This is probably a really silly question but I've often wondered and have been meaning to ask, in churches that hold to EP do the children in Sunday school or Bible club etc sing only Psalms? Are children's choruses forbidden? Or are simplified paraphrases of Psalms used?
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I would not personally know but as someone who holds to EP I would strongly argue against the whole concept of Sunday School anyway :judge:
 
Guys,

Maybe I should clarify this a little, I wasn't really enquiring about Sunday school per say (I used it only as an example). I just wanted to know if Psalms only are always sung even if very young children are being addressed or taught.
 
S. Spence said:
Guys,

Maybe I should clarify this a little, I wasn't really enquiring about Sunday school per say (I used it only as an example). I just wanted to know if Psalms only are always sung even if very young children are being addressed or taught.
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The church we attend has no Sunday school where children are taught separately, and yes they sing the Psalms with the rest of us. I'll add that during our family worship time, my husband will line (read one or two lines than we sing) the Psalms for the benefit of our 5 yr. old that cannot yet read. He loves it and can participate! :)
 
We have Christian education Between the Office of Morning Prayer and Holy Communion.......I like it! Really you guys and gals should give ole Sunday school another chance!;)
 
I follow Jesus said:
We have Christian education Between the Office of Morning Prayer and Holy Communion.......I like it! Really you guys and gals should give ole Sunday school another chance!;)
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By Sunday school, do you mean separating children according to age, etc...while the adults are being taught in an "adult S.S."?
 
lv1nothr said:
By Sunday school, do you mean separating children according to age, etc...while the adults are being taught in an "adult S.S."?
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Good question. OK we have what is called the Office of Morning Prayer, everyone goes to it, we read scripture, sing a couple of Hymns, read a responsive psalm or two offer prayers for the days services. Then there is adult S.S. and a children's S.S. (this is not hard and fast mind you, the little ones will usually study some basics, Noah the flood the rainbow good wholesome fare) In Adult S.S we go into some deeper things we have been Going through 1st and 2nd Peter for example and we get pretty deep into a verse by verse study at times. Afterwards Everone comes together in the Chapel again for Holy Communion. I understand if you are concerned that this might imply a separating , but firstly, if you choose to bring your child to class with you no one would stop you! Secondly, we only do it this way so that they might get the basics for them we put a BIG emphasis on memorizing scripture verses and often they will come into the adult classroom and recite Verses for us.....we applaud and they get pencils and ribbons things like that. Those little ones wow Megan and I with how many verses they fit into their little noggins! Perhaps if I worked on it a bit they might see fit to give me pencils and ribbons as well!:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
 
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We may be pulling our older children out of Sunday school since the latest report (after several in a similar vein): Esther was told that feeling bad about sinning (any sort of 'guilt') was in fact sin. We explained that it was the Holy Spirit leading her to repentance but the SS teacher told her that she shouldn't feel bad about sin, she should just "move on". Maybe we're just too touchy about this, but it really concerns us.
 
I was going to start another thread so as not to drag this one off course, but since as I read down it looks like it is already thoroughly off course anyway, I will go ahead and ask my question here.

For those of you who have no issues with Sunday schools per se, how do you accord that with the RPW?

I attend a church that has strong principles against Sunday school or any other form of auxilliary program or institution, reasoning that there are no scriptural examples.
 
I follow Jesus said:
Good question. OK we have what is called the Office of Morning Prayer, everyone goes to it, we read scripture, sing a couple of Hymns, read a responsive psalm or two offer prayers for the days services. Then there is adult S.S. and a children's S.S. (this is not hard and fast mind you, the little ones will usually study some basics, Noah the flood the rainbow good wholesome fare) In Adult S.S we go into some deeper things we have been Going through 1st and 2nd Peter for example and we get pretty deep into a verse by verse study at times. Afterwards Everone comes together in the Chapel again for Holy Communion. I understand if you are concerned that this might imply a separating , but firstly, if you choose to bring your child to class with you no one would stop you! Secondly, we only do it this way so that they might get the basics for them we put a BIG emphasis on memorizing scripture verses and often they will come into the adult classroom and recite Verses for us.....we applaud and they get pencils and ribbons things like that. Those little ones wow Megan and I with how many verses they fit into their little noggins! Perhaps if I worked on it a bit they might see fit to give me pencils and ribbons as well!:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Well...again, don't see the need. The last church we attended had just that...and I must say it was not joking around...the children learning catechism and memorized verses. Our 7 yr. old has much of God's Word hidden in her heart and her 5 yr. old brother is fast on her heels, for that we're thankful. The 7 yr. old came to us when she was but 4 and because of a S.S. lesson about Joseph told us she knew she has sins in her heart and she wanted to know how to get rid of them...Praise God. We've seen fruit in her ever since, and before then...so praise God for His Word. But having said that, I don't believe you have to put them in separate classes. I was in the littlest' class, so I guess I never really let them go on their own anyway. We've not had bad experiences as I've heard some have, but we just think that they can hear God's Word just like we're hearing it and God doesn't use another Word d to save them...the same Word that quickens the adult can quicken them also!!!


Deuteronomy 31:12 - 13 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: 13And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

Even when Jesus fed the multitudes, men, women and children were present.

Just our preference maybe, but this is the way we like it! You'd be amazed what children can learn if you think they are entitled to the Word of God just as much as the adults.

Besides, what about the adults who are missing the adult class while you're in there benefiting from the teaching?
I could tell you stories about what some S.S. teachers weren't even aware of. But like I said, this is where my husband and I stand on the issue. Don't see the need to separate our children from us.

:2cents:
 
lv1nothr said:
Well...again, don't see the need. The last church we attended had just that...and I must say it was not joking around...the children learning catechism and memorized verses. Our 7 yr. old has much of God's Word hidden in her heart and her 5 yr. old brother is fast on her heels, for that we're thankful. The 7 yr. old came to us when she was but 4 and because of a S.S. lesson about Joseph told us she knew she has sins in her heart and she wanted to know how to get rid of them...Praise God. We've seen fruit in her ever since, and before then...so praise God for His Word. But having said that, I don't believe you have to put them in separate classes. I was in the littlest' class, so I guess I never really let them go on their own anyway. We've not had bad experiences as I've heard some have, but we just think that they can hear God's Word just like we're hearing it and God doesn't use another Word d to save them...the same Word that quickens the adult can quicken them also!!

Deuteronomy 31:12 - 13 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: 13And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

Even when Jesus fed the multitudes, men, women and children were present.

Just our preference maybe, but this is the way we like it! You'd be amazed what children can learn if you think they are entitled to the Word of God just as much as the adults.

Besides, what about the adults who are missing the adult class while you're in there benefiting from the teaching?
I could tell you stories about what some S.S. teachers weren't even aware of. But like I said, this is where my husband and I stand on the issue. Don't see the need to separate our children from us.

:2cents:
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I respect your position. Grace and Peace to you and your family in His Holy Name.
 
I am puzzled...

How does the RPW apply to post/pre service Christian education?

SS is not part of the worship service.

Those against SS, is your view based more on the segregation of children from parents more than the RPW?

I don't see scriptural support for many things the saints do outside of corporate worship, but that in itself does not make such sinful because they are not included as part of the worship service.

Is it sinful for EPers to sing hymns in the car on the way to church? The answer to that is the answer to the opening post.
 
ChristopherPaul said:
I am puzzled...

How does the RPW apply to post/pre service Christian education?

SS is not part of the worship service.

Those against SS, is your view based more on the segregation of children from parents more than the RPW?

I don't see scriptural support for many things the saints do outside of corporate worship, but that in itself does not make such sinful because they are not included as part of the worship service.

Is it sinful for EPers to sing hymns in the car on the way to church? The answer to that is the answer to the opening post.
Click to expand...

Excellent post! :amen:
 
ChristopherPaul said:
I am puzzled...

How does the RPW apply to post/pre service Christian education?

SS is not part of the worship service.

Those against SS, is your view based more on the segregation of children from parents more than the RPW?

I don't see scriptural support for many things the saints do outside of corporate worship, but that in itself does not make such sinful because they are not included as part of the worship service.

Is it sinful for EPers to sing hymns in the car on the way to church? The answer to that is the answer to the opening post.
Click to expand...

Scripture regulates Christian education. The local Session is responsible for the spirtual diet that is to be taken in by the congregation. Heads of households are responsible for the education of their children. Heads of households should be getting their instruction via the teaching office of the church and should catechise their children accordingly. A catechism class for young children might be appropriate, but it should include the option for fathers to attend the class with their children.

On your 5th point, "EPers" would not sing "hymns" in the car on their way to church or they wouldn't be "EPers".

SS can be quite instrumental in introducing what becomes practice in the worship service by doing certain things that are considered, in some peoples minds "appropriate for SS but not for church." It becomes worship practice because people demand it and Sessions give in.

That which is done in SS eventually finds its way to the evening service. That which is done in the evening service eventually finds its way to the morning service.

Here is the progression. If we can sing the ditty in SS, why can't we sing the same ditty in church? Oh, well, okay ... let's see ... our evening service is designed to be "less formal" than the morning service, so we'll "allow" somewhat more latitude but, understand, only in the evening service now. If we can sing the ditty in the evening service, why not in the morning service? It's still worship! Well, now, you have a point there ... what are we going to tell this guy? Hmm, we really can't find a reason not to do this ... I have no problem with it ... I have no objection .... Trust me, I've seen this repeatedly.
 
Since the OP was about EP and not a debate on Sunday Schools then I will not debate SS here but on another thread if you desire to start one :)
 
I know what the OP is but I will make one simple point:

Opposing the segregation of the church during worship services is one thing, and I can understand both sides of the argument.

Opposing evangelistic outreach to unchurched children - (that's what I call Sunday School) is quite another thing. We need to be clear about the terms we use. We have had this conversation before - at least I have had with Colleen in the past.

For your interest, this church both operates an evangelistic outreach sunday school and teaches the children therein to sing psalms. Those children who are children of members then attend the church service later on in the morning.
 
I will definately back Mr. Hunt on this one. That is unusual form of Sunday School, used in the sense it was originally intended for, and one that I CANNOT speak against. (And praise the Lord, they are learning to sing psalms as well ;) )
 
Thanks Jay for the response.

I can't respond to the speculations about the unknown such as what actions may lead to other things and how people respond and prepare, etc.

To your other points that are more tangible:

jaybird0827 said:
Scripture regulates Christian education. The local Session is responsible for the spirtual diet that is to be taken in by the congregation. Heads of households are responsible for the education of their children. Heads of households should be getting their instruction via the teaching office of the church and should catechise their children accordingly. A catechism class for young children might be appropriate, but it should include the option for fathers to attend the class with their children.
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I have no problem with this. This is the structure at my church.

jaybird0827 said:
On your 5th point, "EPers" would not sing "hymns" in the car on their way to church or they wouldn't be "EPers".
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I disagree. EPers are not anti-hymns or any other non-psalm, or at least are not required to be. I know EPers at my church who do in fact listen to hymns, but will not sing them in corporate worship. Psalms are to be exclusively sung during the corporate worship of God’s people, that is every song sung from the Call to worship through the Benediction must be from the Psalms. If they want to go home and sing the Lord’s Prayer or Great is thy Faithfulness, they are free to do so.

Grace brother,
 
ChristopherPaul said:
Thanks Jay for the response.

I can't respond to the speculations about the unknown such as what actions may lead to other things and how people respond and prepare, etc.
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No problem. Church history from the mid-19th century speaks for itself.

To your other points that are more tangible:

I have no problem with this. This is the structure at my church.
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Praise God! Your church is exceptional.


I disagree. EPers are not anti-hymns or any other non-psalm, or at least are not required to be. I know EPers at my church who do in fact listen to hymns, but will not sing them in corporate worship. Psalms are to be exclusively sung during the corporate worship of God’s people, that is every song sung from the Call to worship through the Benediction must be from the Psalms. If they want to go home and sing the Lord’s Prayer or Great is thy Faithfulness, they are free to do so.

Grace brother,
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To be honest, I truly detest the term "EP" or "EPer". The way I understand the term, the strength of the term "exclusive" indicates that those who hold to that idea sing Psalms in public, private and family worship and that is the full extent of their sung praise.

If I understand what you're saying,

A = {all who sing any church music}
B = {all who sing Psalms and other church music but sing only Psalms in church}
C = {all who sing only Psalms in worship}
D = {"EPers"}

All B are D
All C are D
Some A are B.

I sing Psalms in worship - public, family, private.

Monday to Saturday I sing Psalms at other times. In between I sing with Mix 106 or the CD Player, you know, Frank Sinatra, the Beatles, Christopher Cross, the Association, the Monkees, Gene Pitney, Air Supply, KC and the Sunshine Band ...

... But I don't sing any of that other stuff. Period.

To quote a co-worker, "Jay, you're a mess!"

Have a blessed Lord's Day, my brother.
 
I'm wondering how defining "EP" as "only singing Psalms during corporate worship but being free to sing anything else in other times of praise" is different than saying you hold the RPW and defining it as "I only worship idols on Monday through Saturday...because the RPW only applies to corporate worship on the Lord's Day." I'm new to the RPW and even newer to EP so if this is a false dichotomy I'd love to have an EPer who listens to other praise music during the week show me why. It just seems intuitive to me that if it's wrong to sing praise from anywhere but the Psalter on Sunday it would be wrong to sing praise from anywhere but the Psalter ever.
 
Let me see if I understand the EP folks correctly: Nothing but psalms are to be sung in church on the Lord's day. Does that also preclude the use of instruments and amplification? And can the pastor say Amazing Grace How Sweet the Sound during a sermon but not sing the song? Lastly, what is it about hymns and songs of praise (I know there are some simply awful "praise songs" out there) in general that makes them un sabbath worthy?

Thanks!
 
ChristopherPaul said:
I am beginning to think I am further away from EP than I thought. In addition to singing Psalms, my family sings scripture verses, hymns such as Holy, Holy, Holy, and the shorter catechism almost daily.

:confused:
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Chris,

:handshake: This is reassuring. I thought you were playing a mind game with me the other day. Sort of like the Humpty Dumpty character in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, in a statement regarding defining of terms.

I agree. What you are describing I have seen referred to as "abundant Psalmody" as opposed to EP.

Make sense?

Jay
 
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